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Online now: 2 members: TABLE SETTER 11, timster49er; 82 anonymousDiscussion: Obstruction
| Posted | Discussion |
| Nov. 13, 2018 azcard 14 posts | Obstruction BatterRunner hits ball to the fence, rounds first obstructed by the first baseman. Tagged at third base on a close play. Is batter-runner out or awarded 3rd on the obstruction? |
| Nov. 13, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | it's all the judgement of the umpire.. when OBS occurs the umpire should give a delayed dead ball signal and also give a verbal call but the runner has no way on knowing how far he will be protected.. in your scenario of the runner being tagged out at 3rd the umpire would then decide whether the runner was only protected to 2nd or if in his judgement he could have made 3rd base safely |
| Nov. 14, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | azcard, By rule the runner is only protected to 2B. You said the ball went to the fence. However, with what you described this was more than likely a triple. Close play at third, I would more than likely say the runner is awarded third. OTOH, if the obstruction was really bad that it hampered the runner, the runner might have been awarded HP. A little example on obstruction. I don't know if you remember back in the day when the A's and Yankees were in the playoffs, there was an obstruction call. Miquel Tejada was obstructed right before he was rounding 3B. His protection was only to 3B. What he did wrong was practically stop running to home. The throw went to the plate and he was tagged out. If he had continued running like he should have, I'm certain on that play he would have been awarded home. If you remember there was another in the World Series between the Cardinals and Red Sox. That was a call I didn't agree with because the runner caused the contact on his slide into the base between the Sox's Will Middlebrooks and the runner for the Cards Allan Craig. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y_4sqR2Ddc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOlihOEDXgE Cut and paste into your browser to watch them Side note the batter runner becomes a runner after they obtain 1B. |
| Nov. 15, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | wayne.. you stated .. By rule the runner is only protected to 2B. again you are wrong.. as I stated above when OBS is called the runners protection to the advancement of bases if any is all the judgement of the umpire below is the SSUSA rule which seems you never seem to refer to .. 4. When a runner, while advancing or returning to a base, is obstructed by a fielder who neither has the ball nor is attempting to field a batted or thrown ball, or a fielder who fakes a tag without the ball, the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction will always be awarded the base or bases that would have been reached, in the umpire's judgment, had there been no obstruction. If the umpire feels there is justification, a defensive player making a fake tag could be ejected from the game. |
| Nov. 15, 2018 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | B.J. - Is correct runner is always awarded base that would have been reached based on umpires judgement had obstruction not happened. Wayne 37 - Momma's wrong again!! |
| Nov. 15, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Let me break this down for you Mr. Fountain of Misinformation. Obstruction is a minimum one base award from where the obstruction occurred. So in the original situation, the runner can advance to 2B WITHOUT LIABILITY OF BEING PUT OUT. That means PROTECTED. There is a difference in PROTECTED and AWARDED. After that all bets are off. That's when the judgment part comes in. Did you not read the part I wrote about that? Of course you didn't. Did you watch the first video I made available? Very doubtful. I'll post it one more time so maybe you can understand better, but that is only wishful thinking. You might want to take a reading comprehension course. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y_4sqR2Ddc |
| Nov. 15, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | wayne.. seriously.. please read a SSUSA softball rule book and quit citing baseball and what happened when you used to umpire 90mph fastballs.. no one cares.. now back to your latest post.. again you are WRONG.. a runner is not awarded a minimum of 1 base for an OBS call as you stated.. in fact he may not be awarded any bases if in the judgement of the umpire the OBS runner would not have made it to the next base.. and if you are going to insist that all others are wrong please paste the "SSUSA RULE" that you are citing |
| Nov. 15, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | BJ, Im not so sure Wayne37 is incorrect in what he says. Consider a runner rounding first on a hit looking to go second and runs right into the first baseman who’s watching the play and falls down. He gets up and tries for second and is tagged out. Per the rule, as I understand how it reads, if the umpire felt he couldn’t have made it to second without being obstructed he’s out. Am I mistaken on that? |
| Nov. 15, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | stick.. I know of no "minimum 1 base award" as he stated again only the umpires judgement of what base a runner could have advanced safely to had there been no OBS on your scenario.. again it is umpire judgement.. with the runner actually getting knocked he may also award him 3rd base if he thought that he could have reached it safely stick.. try this scenario.. batter hits a grounder to SS who boots the ball and it rolls a few feet away into the outfield.. as the B/R is rounding 1st he makes light contact with the 1B.. the umpire gives a signal and verbal OBS call.. the runner stops seeing that the SS already had the ball and knows he had no chance at making 2nd base safely.. time is called.. the umpire now explains he is not awarding 2b to the runner because even though OBS did occur in his judgement the runner had no chance at making 2nd safely.. stick.. if you know of any rule or rule supplement showing that an automatic minimum 1 base award is given please post it |
| Nov. 15, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | BJ, there is a lot you don't know. Let's take your scenario for instance. stick.. try this scenario.. batter hits a grounder to SS who boots the ball and it rolls a few feet away into the outfield.. as the B/R is rounding 1st he makes light contact with the 1B.. the umpire gives a signal and verbal OBS call.. the runner stops seeing that the SS already had the ball and knows he had no chance at making 2nd base safely.. time is called.. the umpire now explains he is not awarding 2b to the runner because even though OBS did occur in his judgement the runner had no chance at making 2nd safely.. This is so easy peasy for the experienced and knowledgeable umpires. Runner not advancing to 2B. Where is the runner going to go you ask? The answer: back to 1B. Thus runner is protected in returning to 1B. Yes, a runner can be protected returning to their base. Now if you're the umpire, that is the way you explain it to the offense. See how easy that was. Don't you feel good you learned something today? You sure like to throw the word "wrong" around don't ya? Now look into the mirror and repeat it several times. That's right baby, I'm spot on again. |
| Nov. 15, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | I might like to add, minimum means in the very least a runner is awarded. Savvy? Didn't watch the video did you? I didn't think so. |
| Nov. 15, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | wayne.. lol.. you are hilarious.. and what I do know is that you are lost you posted almost exactly what I just wrote to stick.. that is why you were SPOT ON .. by the way.. the point of my scenario to stick that you agree with proves that a umpire does not have to award a minimum of 1 base when OBS is called.. thank you for proving yourself WRONG ... and below is your post in case you forgot .. (Obstruction is a minimum one base award from where the obstruction occurred) and if you keep insisting that a runner is awarded a minimum of 1 base when OBS is called.. would you please cite the rule .. |
| Nov. 15, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Can I explain something without you throwing another hissy fit? I cut and pasted what you wrote. If you had bothered to read the entire post in the first place you would have known that. I realize at times I talk over your head, but every time I try and explain to you, you get riled and try to substantiate you point with inane references to my past experience. And to spread more insight on your scenario, I wouldn't go calling obstruction on what you describe as "light contact". That would come under the category of an OOO (Overly Officious Official) Please take note though if you do, the runner is protected only back to 1B. With a delayed dead ball call, the runner in the original situation is only protected to 2B without liability to be put out. As I stated in my original post without actually seeing the obstruction, I would award the runner 3B after all is said and done. Now if the runner was out by several steps, I would more than likely have the runner as out. After the play is finished is when you place runners. My biggest regret with you is that I don't have access to draw you a diagram with a Crayon depicting stick figures and arrows to point where to place the runners. The SSUSA rulebook leaves much to be desired in it's verbiage. I'm not spot on this time. This time I hit it out of the park! It left the yard so fast, you hurt your neck craning to see how far it went. P. S. ~ A few years back I was a member/moderator on an officiating forum with some very learned and experienced officials from all over. I learned from them and some even learned from me on occasion, but the important thing was they/we shared ideas and information. One thing I can guarantee you is, you would have been laughed of the board. |
| Nov. 16, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | wayne.. PLEASE.. where is this fictitious rule that you keep insisting that a runner is only protected to 2b as you keep stating in many of your posts.. you just can't post something without being able to show the ACTUAL RULE please post it I'd like to read it and learn something new and as far as you being a moderator of a umpire forum.. that is a scary thought...lol one last time.. actually a runner is protected to any base that the umpires judges that he would have made had there not been OBS.. below I have posted both the SSUSA and since you don't like their rule I also posted the USA/ASA version.. read carefully the last sentence in both rules it says and I capitalized it for you "UMPIRE JUDGEMENT" 8.4(10) • WHEN RUNNERS ARE ENTITLED TO ADVANCE SSUSA RULE BOOK 4. When a runner, while advancing or returning to a base, is obstructed by a fielder who neither has the ball nor is attempting to field a batted or thrown ball, or a fielder who fakes a tag without the ball, the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction will always be awarded the base or bases that would have been reached, in the UMPIRE'S JUDGEMENT, had there been no obstruction. USA/ASA SUPPLEMENT RULES 36. OBSTRUCTION. Whenever obstruction occurs, whether or not a play is being made on a runner, the umpire should declare obstruction and signal a delayed dead ball. The ball remains live. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base they would have reached had obstruction not occurred, a dead ball is called and the obstructed runner, and all other runners affected by the obstruction, shall be awarded the base(s) they would have reached, in the UMPIRES JUDGEMENT, had obstruction not occurred. |
| Nov. 16, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, the only thing that I have ever seen you wrong about was that high school players only average 70 - 75 MPH in their pitching throws. 90 - 95 is incorrect. I do not believe that this individual was ever really an umpire very long or at any level. I love baseball but don't care about it in relation to senior softball. His professionalism is very questionable. If this is a more disparaging remark than what he has called you, Dave, or me, then I am willing to be banned. You are really good in my book. You explain rules and situations very concisely and in an easy to understand manner. I am surprised that you listened to it this long. He is consistently argumentative and often wrong. I don't want him near my umpires or yours. Moderator of an officiating forum? Poor guys. I am extremely approachable as an official. While I use more words to explain rules than you do (one of the things that I admire about you), you and I both have excellent resumes spanning several decades, and we actually umpire. We are both known for being approachable and helpfule. I am beyond even giving my opinions on rules with this kind of Gary19 on here. I have NEVER learned anything from him except the patience not to retaliate when I was called undeserved names in front of thousands of people. You are what all umpires should strive for in understanding and enforcing the rules of our game. You have my respect. |
