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Online now: 7 members: JGSoftballer, JohnO28, Selfish, TABLE SETTER 11, emugica30, mello24, tg69; 89 anonymousDiscussion: BJ
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| Nov. 16, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | BJ BJ, I only know the usssa rule. To answer your question: if the ump signaled and verbally indicated obstruction that runner is awarded at least one base beyond the base he last legally touched before the obstruction.(This is where I believe Wayne is correct) The ump also awards the runner all other advanced bases that in his judgement the runner would have made had no obstruction occurred. All along, the play is still live and if the runner continues beyond the base awarded by the obstruction he then becomes in jeopardy, as are all other runners. As stated this is usssa so that runner would be awarded second at the conclusion of play. I’m fairly certain it’s similar in other organizations. You might be able shed some light in ssusa. It’s an interesting rule to study. |
| Nov. 18, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Stick8, When an umpire signals and verbalizes the act of obstruction, a penalty of a minimum of one base shall be awarded. The problem with SSUSA and their contemporaries is most of the SSUSA rules are so vaguely worded. In BJ's scenario, at the end of playing action. The umpire should declare time, and say something to the effect to the obstructed runner, "You, second base." Now, not all contact no matter slight is interference or obstruction. A great mechanic to use in those situations is to signal safe and not say anything, or say "I've got nothing. That lets the teams know you saw what happened and adjudged there wasn't any obstruction or interference. Once you signal and verbalize obstruction, you can't go back and un-ring the bell so to speak. I've never known of any ruleset that nullifies the minimum award. Hope this sheds some light on to the subject. |
| Nov. 19, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | lol.. I think we need to start 1 more new post on this wayne .. read the SSUSA rule ..your post is incorrect .. (When an umpire signals and verbalizes the act of obstruction, a penalty of a minimum of one base shall be awarded.) there is NO minimum 1 base award.. the correct SSUSA award for OBS "if any" is based on umpire judgement |
| Nov. 19, 2018 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | Just my 2 cents as a player and coach, but I always thought that when the umpire silently signals obstruction (with the arm extended out) that he or she was only "recognizing" the contact and that ANY award was based solely on the umpire's judgement after the play concluded. I never thought there was a minimum one base award just because the umpire made the obstruction signal. I've seen umpires signal obstruction but then not award anything after the play was over. I assumed the umpire judged the contact didn't warrant award of the next base. |
| Nov. 19, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Here is the SSUSA rule that you so proudly states your case: EFFECT Sec. 7. E. The obstructed runner shall be awarded at least one base beyond the base he had last legally touched before the obstruction. The umpire should also award the runner all other advanced bases that he believes the runner would have made, had no obstruction occurred, without waiting for an appeal from the offensive team. If the runner continues beyond the base awarded by the obstruction, he then becomes in jeopardy. The ball remains live with all other runners in jeopardy, except any preceding runners, forced by the award for obstruction, shall advance without liability to be put out to the base which they are awarded. Let me break it down for you. EFFECT Sec. 7. E. ****The obstructed runner**** shall be awarded at LEAST ONE BASE BEYOND THE BASE HE HAD LAST LEGEALLY TOUCHED BEFORE THE OBSTRUCTION. (((That means at the VERY MINIMUM))) That being said, by your ruling of obstruction award the runner 2B. All other runners forced to advance by the award of said obstruction are also awarded one base. See how simple this explained when you don't cherry pick a couple of words to try and advace your agenda. Seems that you really don't have a grasp of several other rules either, so this comes as no surprise. Remember it ain't cool being a jive turkey this close to Thanksgiving....LOL |
| Nov. 19, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | The Screamer5, It is umpire jugdement of where the runner(s) are placed after the play is finished. However, the obstructed runner is protected to their one base award without any liability of being put out. Other runners aren't protected until the play is over. |
| Nov. 19, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | I think that the response of "I've got nothing" is perfect from someone that is not an umpire, doesn't umpire, and has zero slow pitch experience. Acknowledging the delayed dead ball is all that is necessary unless something needs to be done. Signaling the delayed dead ball is sufficient. All of those extras mentioned are totally not necessary. The play is not completed; so why signal safe or say a bunch of totally unnecessary words? I keep my arm outstretched the entire time until I call time. Umpires don't need to be noisy in an obstruction situation; interference they do. |
| Nov. 19, 2018 mck71 Men's 60 344 posts | Wayne: No disrespect but there isn't a Section 7. E in 2017-2018 SSUSA Rule book that refers to what you are stating, possibly an older version or a different rulebook? BJ: I do have a question - So I see the part that states "umpires judgment" in Section 8.4(10) A. 4 but wouldn't the language in 8.4(10) A. 1 be applied (or couldn't it, CAPS for effect) "IF A PLAY IS BEING MADE ON AN OBSTRUCTED RUNNER or if the batter-runner is obstructed before reaching 1st base, the ball is dead, and all runners advance without liability to be put out to the bases they would have reached. " Scenario - Batter-runner rounds 1st and is "obstructed" by 1B as they are continuing onto second. The play being made is at 2B (either tagged before runner reaches or at the base) thereby bringing into question which rule would you feel is accurate, am I wrong? |
| Nov. 19, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | wayne.. lmao.. you are really SPOT ON this time .. congratulations.. the good news is that you have FINALLY posted an actual rule.. now the bad news.. the rule you posted was USSSA / UTrip different organization.. but nice try.. next time look up the SSUSA rule same letters but in a different order and if you look it up it will tell you awards are based on UMPIRE JUDGEMENT and to think you say that you used to actually umpire...wow scary |
| Nov. 19, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | mck71.. on the 8.4 (10)A 1 .. this part of the rule would be used on a runner or B/R that was OBS when a play being made on them on the original scenario from 11/13 that was closed was a B/R hitting a ball to the fence and being OBS after he had rounded 1B.. then you would use 2. If no play is being made on the obstructed runner at the time of obstruction, the play shall proceed until the play is completed. The umpire shall call "time" and impose such penalties, if any, that will nullify the act of obstruction. 4. When a runner, while advancing or returning to a base, is obstructed by a fielder who neither has the ball nor is attempting to field a batted or thrown ball, or a fielder who fakes a tag without the ball, the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction will always be awarded the base or bases that would have been reached, in the umpire's judgment, had there been no obstruction. as you can read no where does it say that a runner gets a minimum 1 base award |
| Nov. 19, 2018 TimMcElroy 942 posts | How about you folks just agree to disagree and move on? |
| Nov. 19, 2018 T.C.Sr. Men's 60 24 posts | Tim, This thread kind of reminds me of the old Abbot and Costello Who's on First Skit!!! |
| Nov. 19, 2018 mck71 Men's 60 344 posts | TIM!!! Welcome back to the cold buddy? :-) BJ - Thx, had to go back and look and I agree, no guarantee to 3rd. That said, would you say that with regards to 8.4 (10)A 1 that a runner does get a minimum 1 base award? I believe this is tricky and as per the LANGUAGE in 8.4 (10)A 1 the "award" is implied or inferred (my wife who is an English major beats me about the head with regards to "implied" or "inferred"). Not trying to be a PITA, honestly not sure and would like to apply the correct application if I ever come across it. And Happy Thanksgiving to all! |
| Nov. 19, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4313 posts | T.C.Sr. ... While it's a good analogy about Abbott & Costello, I was thinking more along the lines of Cheech & Chong ... |
| Nov. 19, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Tim.. just trying to get the correct ruling for those that ask... and you being a UIC and director is that what you would say to 2 teams arguing over a rule at a tournament How about you folks just agree to disagree and move on |
| Nov. 19, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Dave.. lol.. spoken like a true Californian .. but it's not legal yet here in Fla. |
| Nov. 19, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Before BJ and Nancy pee themselves, I erroneously typed SSUSA instead of USSSA. With no edit or delete function......not much you can do. Been in the hospital for the last 4 days. I'm making too many red blood cells again. And to think, I used to donate red blood cells every time I was eligible. I get to do leukemia tests next week.......whoopee. I would like to thank Nanny for all her kind words. You are an inspiration to all people that stay butthurt 24/7. You have to hand it to SSUSA. It's the only publication that states a caught fly ball isn't a foul ball under the definition of a foul ball. Since 2018 is over, might want to clean up some of the language. |
| Nov. 20, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | wayne .. even though we always disagree with each other over softball rulings your health trumps everything.. I'm sorry to hear about your health and hope all turns out well |
