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Discussion: WALKOFF 4-Base Award

Posted Discussion
Dec. 11, 2018
SCUBA
71 posts
WALKOFF 4-Base Award
With the game tied and men on base, if a 4-Base Award (Rule 8.4(7)) is no longer treated as an over-the-fence home run, do all baserunners score on a WALKOFF 4-Base Award? If so, with the game tied and runners on 2B and 3B, do both baserunners score on a WALKOFF 2-Base Award since a ground-rule double allows ALL baserunners to advance two bases?
Dec. 11, 2018
B.J.
713 posts
1) yes all runners would score on a 4 base award 2) a ground rule double would be all runners advance 2 bases from their position at the time of the pitch.. so yes they would advance 2 bases and score
Dec. 11, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2862 posts
SCUBA and B.J. ... A four-base award is treated like a home run under Rulebook 8.4(7) except that it does NOT add to the team's allowed home run tally ... We would score four runs on the game ending play ... In your ground rule double hypothetical, the scoring is a bit different ... One run scores and the batter is credited for as many bases as the winning runner had to travel ... If the winning run was on third the batter would be awarded a single, if he was on second (different from your facts) he would be awarded a double and the game is ended ...

Dec. 11, 2018
B.J.
713 posts
Dave, I'm not sure I understand the reasoning on why all the runs would score on a 4 base award but not on a ground rule double.. per the rule of a 4 base award it is not considered a HR and will not be included in the teams total but the B/R and runners may use the hit and sit .. so why count all the runs if the winning run was on 3rd.. as in the scenario of a ground rule double.. I know runs scored can be a tie breaker in tournaments is there anywhere written that gives the specific rules on scoring these plays?

Dec. 11, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2862 posts
B.J. ... In the SSUSA Rulebook, the four-base-award is treated the same as an over the fence home run EXCEPT that it does not count against the team's allowed home run limit ... Game winning HR's score the batter and all runners on base at the time of the pitch ... In the Ground Rule Double fact pattern, there is no such treatment ... Yes, everyone theoretically gets two bases from the time of the pitch, but in a game-winning walk-off hit OTHER than an HR, the game ends at the moment the winning run scores AND the batter-runner touches 1B AND any other base runners required to advance touch the next base (which is irrelevant in the GRD situation because the ball has left the "grounds") ...

Dec. 12, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
To clarify: Runners are placed from their last legally obtained base, not time of pitch. A common misnomer.

Ground rule double should be rephrased as a rule book double in the sense that "by rule runner(s) and batter are awarded two bases from the time the ball is made dead. Ground rules are what is pertained to the playing field itself. Most fields are symmetrical today so that isn't much of an issue for the most part.

Runners and batter should really touch their award base so as not to create confusion. The defense can still appeal a missed base in certain scenarios.
Dec. 12, 2018
B.J.
713 posts
wayne.. there cannot be an award of bases assessed, as in a ground rule double until the ball is actually out of play and called dead..

so with your above version and clarification that..
(Runners are placed from their last legally obtained base, not time of pitch)

then if B/R hits a ball in the gap to the OF with a runner on 1st and the ball rolls all the way to the fence and goes under it AFTER the runner had already passed 2nd base and the B/R had passed 1b.. the umpire then calls dead ball and per your above clarification the B/R would be awarded 3b and you would then send the runner that was on 1st home.. since they had both legally touched 2nd before the ball went out of play..

below are 2 rules to show you are wrong
SSUSA and USA/ASA...

SSUSA doesn't give a full explanation of the time frame as to when the award is based but USA/ASA does and as you can read it is at the time of the pitch

SSUSA:
E. When a fair ball bounces over or rolls under or through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field. Also when it deflects off a runner or umpire and goes out of play. EFFECT: The ball is dead, and all runners are awarded two bases.

USA/ASA version of rule:
GROUND RULE DOUBLE............................ 8 5 I
I. When a fair batted ball bounces over, rolls under or through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field. When the ball deflects off a defensive player and goes out of play in foul ball territory, deflects off a runner or umpire and goes out of play into foul ball territory, after having passed an infielder excluding the pitcher and provided no other infielder had a chance
to make an out.
EFFECT: The ball is dead, and all runners are awarded two bases from the time of the pitch.
Dec. 13, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2862 posts
Wayne 37 ... No clarification required ... This is slow pitch softball, and the base runners are required to be on the base at the time of the pitch which, by definition, is going to be the last legally acquired base ... You raise a "distinction without a difference" (a type of logical fallacy where someone attempts to describe a distinction between two things where no discernible difference exists) ... SCUBA's original question seemed to infer a "scoring of runs" based issue, quite possibly in the context of tie-breaker implications ... It was answered accordingly ...
Dec. 14, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
Clarifying once more: I was referring to SSUSA only. Their rule uses the word WHEN....no specific reference to TOP.......so place the runners from their last legally obtained base. That being said, if a runner from 1B has obtained 2B before the ball goes out of play, award runner home. This doesn't happen very often, but if it does this is the way I would enforce it. ADDED: if the runner misses 2B, I am going to award the runner home and wait for the defense to make a proper appeal of a missed base

Frankly, the USA/ASA ruling is the only one I can ever recall reading that a batted ball going into dead ball territory, bases are awarded from TOP. And it shouldn't be called a GROUND RULE DOUBLE. It should read, by rule runners and batter are awarded two bases from the TOP. Ground rules refer to how the field plays. Yes to the answer that all runners must touch their award bases.

(FYI ~ It seems everytime I've tried to reference USA/ASA/USSSA, the link wants you to download some program(s) I don't want or need to access a PDF file. Either that or purchase something I don't want to buy.)

I've also noted the rule changes for 2019. I don't necessarily agree with the with most of it, but some of the vague language was cleaned up. I must be rubbing off on some people.
Dec. 14, 2018
B.J.
713 posts
wayne.. a "ground rule double" is called exactly that because of the uniqueness of the field that the game is being played on.. ie holes under the outfield fences, no gates on the dugouts, trees overhanging into fair ball territory.. these are all instances of why the ground rule double was made up.. in fact as you stated above USA/ASA calls it that in their rule book
USA/ASA version of rule:
GROUND RULE DOUBLE............................ 8 5 I which I posted above..

it seems your incapability for downloading rules and rule references also equals your inability to cite rules correctly ..

btw great job on those 2019 vague language rule changes.. I'm sure the SSUSA board was happy to have your input and help
Dec. 14, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2862 posts
And I'm guessing S. I. Hayakawa is turning over in his grave about now if he's reading this thread from above ...
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