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| Dec. 21, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Courtesy runner §8.5(5) • COURTESY RUNNER OFFICIALLY IN THE GAME A courtesy runner must report to, and be acknowledged by, the umpire ***BEFORE PLAY RESUMES***. A courtesy runner may enter the game only prior to the first pitch to any batter. A courtesy runner is in the game when he touches the base. If a courtesy runner is determined illegal, he will be called out upon touching the base and no other courtesy runner is allowed. The original runner may not return as the runner. An illegal courtesy runner on base is committing a continuing violation and may be called out upon appeal at any time while on base or, if he scores, prior to the first pitch to the next batter. I alphabetized BEFORE PLAY RESUMES Is this saying that a courtesy runner who announces the numbers of who they are running for and their number also isn't officially in the game until they are announced by the umpire to the defense or scorekeeper(s) [if any]. They are then considered officially in the game when they touch the base. And by ***determined***, does it mean by ***appeal*** of the defense to the umpire before even one pitch is thrown to the next batter, not the umpire unilaterally declaring the runner out? |
| Dec. 21, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | wayne.. i think you meant that you CAPITALIZED.. or maybe you need to go back and study the alphabet.. a courtesy runner will announce his number to the umpire before entering the playing field but he is not officially in the game until he touches the bag.. if he is an illegal courtesy runner the umpire should call him out immediately upon touching the bag with no appeal needed.. if for some reason the umpire misses this he can be called out by appeal at anytime while on base and even after he scores and until a pitch to the next batter |
| Dec. 21, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | Wayne ... This one was pretty simple ... At the 2016 Rules Committee sessions, the first sentence (except for the last three words) was added to the rule ... There was some general discussion then about the "when" component, but the consensus was that players and umpires would both so their part to make announcement/acknowledgment smooth and specifying an exact time wasn't necessary ... We were wrong! ... So this year we added three words for: "A courtesy runner must report to, and be acknowledged by, the umpire before play resumes." It's a subtle issue, but the first sentence in the rule as originally written imposed an obligation on the offense to announce AND a related obligation on the umpire to acknowledge ... Some umpires, unfortunately, (incorrectly) presumed that the announcement and the acknowledgment had to occur before the CR stepped on the base and, as a result, they would just wait, rather than acknowledge, and then go "hunting for cheap outs" ... It was simply unfair to have the offense fulfill their obligation, then get called out because an umpire didn't ... The addition of the last three words in this year's sessions will presumably prevent that from happening again ... |
| Dec. 21, 2018 stick8 1992 posts | Wayne37 you’re pretty much spot on. I don’t umpire senior ball as much as BJ but in my experiences as a player and an umpire a courtesy runner announces his number and the number of the player he’s running for, then takes the base. If I know it’s illegal I’ll call him out as soon as he touches the bag. If not the defense can appeal as long as it’s before the the first pitch to the next batter as BJ correctly points out. I had one a couple years ago. A scorekeeper came up to me and stated a courtesy runner from two innings before wasn’t listed on the score card. And she was correct. What is the rule on that? |
| Dec. 21, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | Dave, I think a bigger change in the rule is that a C/R can only be asked for prior to the "1st pitch" of any batter.. Dave, I'm not sure what you mean by.. Some umpires, unfortunately, (incorrectly) presumed that the announcement and the acknowledgment had to occur before the CR stepped on the base and, as a result, they would just wait, rather than acknowledge, and then go "hunting for cheap outs" as far as an umpire acknowledging the CR right away.. how does that stop what you call hunting for cheap outs? whether the CR is illegal or not the umpire would still acknowledge him.. he then would call him out when he touched the bag or if in the case the the runner had already taken the bag before being acknowledged stick.. an illegal CR does not have to be appealed before the 1st pitch.. an appeal can be made at anytime while on base and even after he scores and until a pitch to the next batter as far as the CR not on the scorecard.. that is a big mistake by the umpire.. I believe once the CR has scored and a pitch to the next batter has been made nothing can be done.. this would probably end up involving the tournament director because if a protest was to be made it would have had to been done when the violation occurred, not 2 innings later |
| Dec. 21, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | B.J. - I agree on the second sentence (A courtesy runner may enter the game only prior to the first pitch to any batter.) being more significant ... That was added at the 2017 Rules Committee Sessions ... The umpire reference, although it's rare, involved multiple occurrences at the World Masters Championships in Las Vegas this year ... A few umpires actually heard/saw the CR announce, waited until he stepped on the base and THEN rang him up for being on the base BEFORE being acknowledged ... That's an unfair result that should never happen again ... The "touching the bag" is now more relevant in identifying who the runner is and preventing a switch-out to another CR or trying to get the original runner back on the base ... It's largely irrelevant in the "announce/acknowledge" circumstance, where the timing is based on "before play resumes" ... |
| Dec. 22, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | Dave, (. A few umpires actually heard/saw the CR announce, waited until he stepped on the base and THEN rang him up for being on the base BEFORE being acknowledged ) WOW... yes I agree that would definitely be a cheap out |
| Dec. 22, 2018 stick8 1992 posts | BJ, youre correct about the first pitch to the next batter, that’s what I meant to convey. Good catch. In the situation I had the player arrived late to the game, came over from another field. He was inserted as a courtesy runner an inning later and an inning after I was made aware he wasn’t listed on the scorecard. You’re correct that no appeal can be made because it was too late and his run counts. But as I understand it, he’s ejected for the rest of the game. Perhaps you and Dave could shed some light on this for future reference. Lesson to be learned: list everyone on the official scorecard, even if they aren’t there. They may show up when you think they won’t. . |
| Dec. 22, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | stick8 ... In every Manager Meeting I have either chaired or attended, the announcement has been made that: "NOT ON THE CARD, NOT IN THE GAME" ... There are a multitude of reasons this happens, including a player being late, maybe playing in two age divisions on different teams, a scorekeeper making an omission when transcribing the manager's lineup to the official game card, etc ... Regardless, the remedy is the same in all cases: That player is removed from the game and any appeal rights that may still exist may be asserted ... Otherwise, it's "play on" ... |
| Dec. 22, 2018 stick8 1992 posts | Yes, that sounds about right. It helps to have an alert scorekeeper!! |
| Dec. 23, 2018 Sisavic 190 posts | Dave, Please clarify this statement/rule. "A courtesy runner may enter the game only prior to the first pitch to any batter." A specific situation: a batter safely gets to 1st base. I had assumed that the player can have a CR only before the next batter in the lineup. But the wording seems to state that the batter who gets a single can then get to second (or third) and then get a CR as long as the CR enters the game prior to the first pitch to the second (or third) batter. |
| Dec. 23, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | I understand about the reporting to and being acknowledged by the umpire prior to play resuming as in a substitute entering the batting lineup. I do a lot of running and I've always reported to the umpire. However, I cannot come to the conclusion from reading the rule that it specifically states the umpire is sole arbiter in determining the legality of the courtesy runner. I read the words WHEN IT IS DETERMINED to mean something much different. As in when it is determined by the umpire and the defense via proper appeal which is the custom. I can say I've seen an illegal courtesy runner entered into the game......but I've never seen the umpire call the runner out by their own amolition. The defense always broached the appeal first. I find it strange that an umpire will allow an ineligible player in the game and immediately call them out. That doesn't make good sense at all. Additionally, if that is way you want it ruled on, then it should state so in the rule [book]. One shouldn't need a decoder ring to understand them. Why I use the word vague so often. The rules aren't hard for me to understand. It is the way they are written is what makes it hard for me to understand. Personally, I wouldn't let the scorekeeper alert me to the fact that the opposing team was using an illegal runner unless this "she" was a team member in the dugout and not sitting outside the fence with presumed other "she's". It is the umpires responsibility to check their scorecard for names and numbers to see if the player is eligible. I promise never to use the microphone on my phone to post anymore. I usually get it edited for correction, but sometimes I miss one. Nice to have bj there for backup. It wouldn't hurt you to learn how to use the shift key yourself there pardnar as long as it is nitpicking season. Unless though you were born with no pinkie fingers, just do the best you can with what you got. |
| Dec. 24, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | sisavic.. yes a runner can get a CR with every new batter.. BEFORE the 1st pitch to that new batter |
| Dec. 24, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | wayne.. sorry, I don't think a decoder ring would help.. especially when you can't read a rule that is specifically written and says that if a courtesy runner is determined illegal, he will be called out upon touching the base!! I posted the rule below for you using my PINKY finger.. and no where does it state upon appeal now I have a question for you.. you posted this above (I find it strange that an umpire will allow an ineligible player in the game and immediately call them out. That doesn't make good sense at all.) what would you have the umpire do?? tell the runner he can't become a CR because he is illegal?? I thought the purpose of a MGR. was to determine who is and isn't eligible.. 8.5(5) • COURTESY RUNNER OFFICIALLY IN THE GAME A courtesy runner must report to, and be acknowledged by, the umpire before play resumes. A courtesy runner may enter the game only prior to the first pitch to any batter. A courtesy runner is in the game when he touches the base. If a courtesy runner is determined illegal, he will be called out upon touching the base and no other courtesy runner is allowed. The original runner may not return as the runner. An illegal courtesy runner on base is committing a continuing violation and may be called out upon appeal at any time while on base or, if he scores, prior to the first pitch to the next batter. |
| Dec. 24, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | Wayne ... "..I can say I've seen an illegal courtesy runner entered into the game......but I've never seen the umpire call the runner out by their own amolition. The defense always broached the appeal first.." __________ That is probably true in almost all cases, but I HAVE seen the call made by an umpire solely on his own ... It was only one time, but it couldn't have come at a worse time, selfishly speaking as the Director on site ... A relatively new umpire behind the plate in a 55-Major+ Championship game on Sunday evening ... He had already gotten his field so far behind that two adjacent fields had already completed "If" games ... He had been "lapped" in auto racing terminology! ... Unbeaten team trailing by one in bottom of the 7th ... Two outs and bases loaded, so the winning run was on 2nd ... Team announces and enters the CR at 2nd base ... Umpire immediately rang him up because he had run previously in the inning and we're off to the "if" game! ... Correct call? ... Yes, technically ... Did it have to be made at that moment without the defense raising the issue? ... Probably not ... We left the park after dark, 2½ hours later, and not very happy about it! __________ Sisavic ... B.J. is correct ... A courtesy runner may enter the game before the first pitch to any batter ... The rule revision last year was to, in effect, eliminate CR entry mid-count on a batter ... Be ready to go before the first pitch to the next batter, or wait for the batter after that, or the one after that ... __________ B.J. ... Let's stick to the issues and eliminate the "edgy" personal component ... Thanks ... |
| Dec. 24, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | lol Dave, that's why they $PAY$ you the big money and I will try to play nice... Happy Holidays |
| Dec. 24, 2018 stick8 1992 posts | Dave that must have been a wild scene!! As an umpire and a hs basketball official I hate like hell to be the one to determine the outcome of a game. Sometimes you can’t get around it but I much prefer to let the players do that. If I don’t call something at the start or during the game I’m sure not going to call it at the end if the game. No surprises. Wayne does raise a good point. Taking his point and your situation it begs the question: No matter what point of the game it is, is it proper for an umpire to call an illegal CR out before the defense appeals if said umpire knows with 100% certainty that’s the case? |
| Dec. 24, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | stick8 ... I wrestled with that later, since I now believe it was a correct literal application of the rule ... It's almost always, as Wayne noted, brought to the umpire's attention by the defense, but it's not specifically an "appeal play" by definition ... I share your opinion that the teams should decide the game ... I ended up having to (appropriately) apologize to the umpire because of my poor reaction at the time ... He had apparently memorized the rule book, so when I suggested he apply the "Same Day Rule" to the "If" game, he asked me what that was ... So I told him he has to "..finish his scheduled games on the same damn day they start!.." I shouldn't have said that, but he does remind me of it occasionally and we both laugh ... Merry Christmas everyone! ... |
| Dec. 24, 2018 stick8 1992 posts | Dave, it’s not an appeal play per se but the effect can be the same. IMHO, it shouldn’t be the umpire that calls it with one exception at least for me. Player A1 gets a base hit. Time is called. Player A2, coaching first, announces he’s running for A1. He gets on first and he’s legal. Unbeknownst to the team they send out player A3 to run. Player A3 announces he’s running, Player A2 vacates the bag and player A3 gets on the bag. IfI’m umpiring I’m calling that CR out before any defensive player asks, although they’d likely be screaming about it!! Merry Christmas to all!! |
| Dec. 26, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ does it most correctly by making notes on the runners; I fail on the part of adding extra administrative work and time to the officiating job. I admit it. I make the runner and courtesy runner announce their numbers to me. I request it always and teach my umpires to do the same. I have called two out this year on the automatic out that it is (even if someone refuses to understand the printed words). One was as plate umpire, the other as base umpire. Hearing the numbers keeps my head in the game on it. I cannot ever remember calling one out on an appeal, but if the scorekeeper showed me a well kept book on it, I would give it to them. If the offensive coach had the nerve to lie to me, they deserve the out even more. So when you touch that bag as a courtesy runner and shouldn't, you are out on my field, guaranteed. I was a scorekeeper for over 20 years for Coachie. I was in the dugout always because I was much more involved with the team than most scorekeepers. However that being said, some of the best scorekeepers that I have encountered sat somewhere between the bleachers and the backstop. I did get quite a few outs on the courtesy runners that the umpires didn't notice when I was a scorekeeper; I earned other outs for the team as well. I could show them with my book which was very detailed and accurate. Our players were not allowed to courtesy run unless they checked in with me. I take offense to anyone who insults scorekeepers or calls them she as a hidden sexist remark. Dave, I totally agree on the "bs" out for the last one of the game. None of us like extra innings or IF games, but my ethics make me enforce the correct call. I actually have only been in that situation once, and the catcher caught it before I had to ponder on it; so it was the right call but a horrible ending to a game even though it was the correct call...another adult beverage story. So on this thread, I have one giant lump of coal and a lot of good holiday wishes to those who actually understand and love the game. |
| Dec. 26, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | I see the Grinch is back in town. I've raised my questions because of the verbiage of the written rule. Didn't it say is out immediately? I guess immediately doesn't mean immediately since the defense can appeal all the way until the illegal courtesy runner scores until the first pitch to the batter after the runner scores. I also find it STRANGE, my new go to word, that a umpire will accept an illegal runner and immediately call him out, especially if playing action is dead. I also find it STRANGE that the umpire who can't get it right the first time and somebody [who should be sitting in the stands] with a scorebook has to jog their memory. Why in the championship game is it BS to call out the illegal runner? Simply enforcing the rule as intended it seems? If it is BS one time, it is BS every time. Everyone hold their hand up who wants their cake and eat too. Simply change the rule to read, "The defense can appeal an illegal courtesy runner all the way up until the runner scores before the first pitch to the batter after the illegal runner scores." Also, if you're not a rostered player or a coach designated to be on the field, she or it can take it back into the stands where they belong. I'm not going to be responsible for a person getting whacked in the back of the head with a thrown ball or errant bat that are not eligible to be on the field of play. And I'm certainly not going to let somebody show me their immaculately kept scorebook that isn't eligible. I will get my fellow umpire and the two team designees to discuss the issue. If they want to bring their scorebooks to the field, I'm fine with That's because even the best scorekeepers can be liars. If they decide to get belligerent with me, the old bag can keep score from the parking lot. Believe me when I say I've had loudmouthed fans removed before. It feels good to hear the applause from the other attendees at the game that are happy to see the obnoxious person escorted out. Perhaps 2019 will be everybody's year. Looking forward to the TOC in FLA!!!!! |
| Dec. 26, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Sorry, just trying to have a civil discussion on the wording of the courtesy runner rule and possible improvement in the future. If a couple of posters weren't so often wrong about the most minute rules, I would take their word for it and accept it as fact. Contrary to No Pinkies assertation, I can read a rulebook just fine. However, No Pinkies rattles on about SSUSA rules and that is what he will discuss. Yet, No Pinkies has his knickers so bunched, he starts posting USA/ASA/USSSA rules. Sorry Dave, I just like to share some input on some of the rules. I'm not here to have an umpiring competition with a couple of tangled up yoyos! Hope everyone enjoys their New Year with many blessings to come in the future. |
| Dec. 27, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | No need to apologize. You started a couple of threads on rules that have been thoroughly explained to you numerous times but refuse to understand. So your goal is only to argue. I get it. If you were really serious about rules that everyone else comprehends when they read or have them explained to them, you might have been at the rules meeting or submitted a proposed rule change. Did you? You just like to argue what everyone else understands. So scorekeepers are old bags, liars, and cannot write legibly? I am glad that you did not say that to me when I started scorekeeping for my wonderful senior softball husband when I was 40. Experienced umpires are yoyos? May I remind you that you are not an umpire? Since you have zero respect for professionals or women, would you please just call me the name that you want to? It's ok; get to it. |
| Dec. 27, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | Wayne ... Looks like maybe a case of excessive picking at nits here, but I can't find the word "immediately" anywhere in Rulebook §8.5 • COURTESY RUNNERS ... It was the specific intent of the Rules Committee when this section was fine-tuned a few years ago to recognize that an illegal CR is not always noticed "immediately" for any number of reasons, most often due to inattention by multiple parties ... The Committee fully intended for a remedy (removal and an out) to be available for this potential continuing violation for as long as it is present, up to an including prior to the first pitch to an ensuing batter in the event the illegal CR "scores" ... That remedy is completely reflective of our intent and the language is not likely to be changed as you suggest ... Re-post from above for all of you: ... Let's stick to the issues and eliminate the "edgy" personal component ... Thanks ... |
| Dec. 27, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Wasn't apologizing to you. Was apologizing to the board. Besides, you don't really qualify as a professional or a woman from my viewpoint. You're merely a disparaging comment making hypocrite with keyboard diarrhea. What I want to discuss is my business. Nobody asked for your input and since you didn't offer any, what is your beef? You're just making yourself look more pathetic each and every time with your childlike remarks. I've had stalkers less obsessed with me than you. Anyway, I have too much class [in my little pinkie fingers] to lower myself to your standards, so I'm not going to get into a name calling contest with you. I do find it funny that you will keep a scorebook and write down the numbers of the courtesy runners, but when working the field, it's too much administrative paperwork. The reason I broached the original question is because the rule doesn't specifically state the umpire unilaterally call the runner out before the defense can appeal. It reads more like if the umpire can't remember because they're too lazy to write down the numbers, the defense has like 10 pitches or more to jog their feeble minds. Now if a scorekeeper wants to point out to their wonderful senior softball playing husband an infraction may have occurred, I fine with that. Make no mistake about it though, if that heifer wants to argue with me through the fence, I will send them packing to Parking Lot City where they can graze with the rest of the herd. That's what we do with a cattle down here in Texas when one tries to cut away from the rest of the herd. We cut 'em back in. If there is anything else you care to expound on, you better do it quick because I'm through listening to your low self-esteem issues. Must be why you're constantly trying to build yourself up by tearing others down. Perhaps a mental health professional would be better to share those issues with. At the very least, pen a letter to Dear Abby. As of now I have more pressing urgent issues of my own to deal with than listening to your. caterwauling. Doubtful I will be checking in for a while due to those issues, so hope you had a Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year. So may your strikes be plenty, your outs be true and try not to get conked in the head with a bat or ball. |
| Dec. 27, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Sorry again, Dave. You posted before I did. I understand. I just have a lot of more serious stuff on my mind. Reading takes my mind off them. I supposed I need to start reading elsewhere. Having this rule called on a consistant basis requires more umpire training from what I've seen in the past. The main reason I've asked several times. |
| Dec. 27, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | No worries, Wayne ... We'll "all in" on improving performance and consistency by all tournament officials, from T.D.'s on down ... It's no different than players/teams presumably striving for the same result ... |
| Dec. 27, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Not a problem there, Dave. I just know it's hard to get experienced umpires to work during the day on weekdays for extra cash in blazing heat and humidity. I had the same problem when I was the assignor and UIC at a local boy's baseball park around the corner. where I live. I was dragging home about 200-300 a week was the reason. All the little stuff piles into one big lump of stuff eventually. I decided I had had enough when the tournament director told me I needed to vacate the concession stand when I was having some heat related issues and let them know I probably needed to go home or to the hospital. My kidneys are paying for it now. I don't always agree with every call, but then I'm not into arguing with them either. Around her it the other way around as the umpires want to argue with you. You can tell who has a pretty firm grasp on the basics. We had that faux pas down in College Station with a very inexperienced umpire and the tournament director got it wrong also. Hopefully they learned. Those are mistakes that we can learn from. Experience is often a mistake you won't make twice. Now that I know for certain, it clears quite a few questions from my mind. The reason I ask questions is to learn though. Sometimes I just have to vent. Some people catch me on a bad day. I generally choose not to get in a name calling contest, but then again I will take expection to being called a liar. Write me up for being human......LOL Yesterday would have been my dad's 89th birthday. Right now I'm shooting for FLA. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is getting weak and old also. If I've learned one thing old ball players don't get better, they get older. Take care this holiday weekend. Me, I'm trying to get around all the Clemson and Notre Dame fans now. Have to go about 5 miles out of my way to get to some places I need to go. |
