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Discussion: Recent Palm Springs Tournament - One & One Count with one to waste.

Posted Discussion
Jan. 31, 2019
baseballbill
121 posts
Recent Palm Springs Tournament - One & One Count with one to waste.
We are a 70's team and just completed playing in this tournament. It was a 60 minute clock and all the games went 7 innings with the One & One count.
Why don't these older teams realize that the One & One count will allow the games to go 6 and 7 innings over the zero, zero count which lets you play only 5 and 6 innings. Also the flow of the game is much quicker with less dead time.
We are paying a lot of money for these tournament so why not play more innings and get more bang for your dollar.
The only thing the zero, zero count accomplishes is more dead time and less innings played. I just don't get the resistance for the one & one count??????
Someone, please enlighten me !!!!
Jan. 31, 2019
SCRAPPY
44 posts
We play mostly SSUSA and are a 70 Major Team. We played approximately 60 tournament games last year and only had a few not go the distance of 7 innings. This included a game with a 33 - 26 score.
You can get the full 7 innings in if you get in and out of the field between innings, and have courtesy runners ready to go.
If you waste even 1 minute between inning changes (per team) that comes to 12 wasted minutes in 6 innings. If a courtesy runner takes an extra 30 seconds or so to run from the dugout (if he is ready to go), the other runner run back, that will take at least another 5 minutes over the total game. That could amount to 17 wasted minutes per game. I don't know how many times teams don't have a runner ready to go in.
I believe a 1 - 1 count speeds it up somewhat but you have to look at the whole picture. A 1 - 1 count with an extra foul ball is only saving a little time per batter, even though it makes them swing at pitches earlier in the count.
I hate to see the game changed any more than it has been.

Jan. 31, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2749 posts
Gentlemen ... Two EXCELLENT arguments on the flip sides of the same coin ... In Palm Springs, the tourney promoter structured a format that yielded more innings ... SCRAPPY's team approach to the game format takes on the responsiblity for more innings as an internal team decision ... Both work for us ... Thank you both!
Jan. 31, 2019
baseballbill
121 posts
Mr Scrappy: WE also play 70 Major "Ponchos" and mostly play SSUSA.
Most of our games are 5 and 6 innings, very really go 7 innings. Many Batters take the first good strike pitched with the Zero, Zero count which doesn't happen with the one & one count which creates a much better action flow to the game and saves time.
You say you hate to see the game change any more than it has been???
Lets recap: more innings, more action with less down time, better game flow !!!
I see it as a WIN, WIN, WIN situation.
WE play the game to hit, field, catch and run. We don't play to stand around and waste time while watching batters take good strikes to hit, that's what the zero, zero count creates.

Feb. 1, 2019
baseballbill
121 posts
Dave: What were the reasons for the 1 & 1 count with one to waste Failing (5-7-1)at the rules committee meeting for all Divisions ???
Feb. 1, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2749 posts
baseballbill ... A little over a year ago (December, 2017), we sent a survey to the membership on the issue ... In January, 2018, the National Rules Committee special teleconference session approved the "1-1" count for all age groups that favored it by at least a 20% point margin in the polling ... While the Age 65+ favored the "1-1" starting pitch count, the margin was close ... Opposition to the change increases with the age of the divisions, with no group at 70+ and older in favor ... In the absence of any updated polling, the Committee could not be persuaded to extend it across all ages and divisions of play ... I was one of the "yea" votes, but was still a member of the minority! ...

Feb. 1, 2019
baseballbill
121 posts
Dave: I think SSUSA should take the lead on giving stats on the 1 & 1 count. I think you understand that it makes for a better game and its a proven fact that it allows for more innings played.
Older Divisions can learn from the younger Divisions when it comes to slow pitch softball.
Thanks
Feb. 1, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2749 posts
baseballbill ... Not sure what "stats" you may envision, but here's what we observed in the 40-Masters divisions, who began the "1-1" count (without a courtesy foul) a couple of years ago ... The percentage of games achieving a full 7-innings was somewhere above 98% ... The exceptions were just a couple/few games where something peculiar, such an injury based play stoppage, occurred ... For the 50+ through 60+ Men's divisions that played the "1-1" count (with a courtesy foul) last season, the percentage of games going the full seven innings was in the range of 90-95% ... Speaking personally as only one (of 13) voting member of the National Rules Committee, I am convinced that the "1-1" count is the most effective format for maximizing innings played without detrimentally affecting the game ...

Feb. 1, 2019
NYGNYY
136 posts
At 65 and playing almost every inning I am OK with playing 6 instead of 7 some of the time. Think about it!
Feb. 1, 2019
baseballbill
121 posts
Dave: That's the Stat I'm looking for, 90-95% of games go 7 innings.
Do we know the percentage with a zero, zero count.
Many players think the 1 & 1 count does not speed up the game.
More played innings don't lie !!!!!
Feb. 1, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2749 posts
bbb ... I'm not aware of any specific previous "0-0" count percentages for the groups that changed to "1-1", since I know we didn't formally track them ... But as a Director at multiple tournaments annually, I see a significantly higher percentage of games now going the full seven than occurred before ... Again, a personal opinion only, but the argument that the "1-1" count does not yield more innings played simply lacks merit ... More innings isn't the sole criteria, of course, but the argument against going to "1-1" across the board is going to require different issues of significance in order to prevail ...

Feb. 1, 2019
baseballbill
121 posts
Dave: Thanks for the input!!! If nothing changes, the 0-0 count will die its natural death as the younger players get older.
Feb. 1, 2019
bbullet
36 posts
I agree with SCRAPPY. And as a player now playing 70's I agree with NYGNYY especially with so much time and energy wasted in pool games. Extra time is added in bracket play.

baseballbill is currently a pitcher on a 70's team. It seems there have been many pitchers who tend to favor this. (sometimes quite often on this board) He jumps on the one stat that Dave gave - but you acknowledge you "didn't formally track the stat by age group previously.

I can only imagine trying to play 40's again with senior bats and 5 run and home run limitations. I would think there are a lot of quick outs unintentionally flying out of the park.
Feb. 1, 2019
baseballbill
121 posts
Hey Guys: Yes, I am currently a pitcher but only been pitching for 1 year. Ive been playing with the 0-0 count and the 1&1 count for 15 years.
In my opinion, the best thing about the 1&1 count is the faster pace of the game with less standing around. Its just a better flow and as an extra bonus, you get to play more 7 innings games.
The 60,s and under have figured that out !!!!!
Feb. 2, 2019
Omar Khayyam
1323 posts
My 80s team also played in the Palm Springs Tournament with the 1-1 starting count. All of our games did NOT achieve 7 innings of play. On the first day, we finished one hour late by the end of the supposed 1:15 game! No injuries...no ambulance...no field problems...just slower on and off the field and one game that had a long last inning. So 1-1 doesn't automatically give longer games.

The difference seemed to be the attitude of the umpire and making the players hustle a little bit, shortening infield warm-up, giving the pitcher only 1 or 2 warm-up pitches.

This is the first tournament where we have had a 1-1 count for every game. It was a different mindset for sure. At the end of the tournament, had we polled the players on my team, I think we would have had a universal vote to retain the normal 0-0 start for older players. Even if we want to, at our age we don't "hustle" on to the field very well. Most missed getting used to a new pitcher and taking a pitch to size up his style. There were many more strikeouts than normal (about 2 or 3 a game with both teams, about half on a foul out).

This partly explains why guys our age are reluctant to change. Playing 7 versus 6 innings just isn't worth the pressure to bat and to rush warming up. It will be awhile before it changes.

By the way, my league goes to 1 and 1 when games are running late. I don't notice a difference then. I think it is because all of the hitters are familiar with all of the pitchers and we don't play on 300 foot fields like Palm Springs.
Feb. 3, 2019
DieselDan
Men's 70
375 posts
O. K.: All batters, other than lead off, should have a good read on a pitcher just by watching them. Most lead off hitters can still get a "read" by watching 4/5 warm up pitches.
Feb. 3, 2019
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1220 posts
Getting a read... 18 mph underhand... what's He got? LOL
Feb. 3, 2019
baseballbill
121 posts
You just cant teach old dogs new tricks. I always wonder if the older teams understand that the 0-0 count creates more standing around on defense with no action vs the 1&1 count.
I will say it again, the 60's and under understand that !!!!!
Feb. 3, 2019
Jawood
Men's 50
926 posts
Don't think we'll ever come to a consensus with the 1-1, 0-0 count debate. Obvious to some is not obvious to others and that's okay! I think it's probably best to play what we grew up with!
Feb. 3, 2019
baseballbill
121 posts
I think it would make sense for SSUSA to track the 60's(1&1)and 65's(0-0)and give percentage of 7 inning games played.
This will enlighten all of us on the pace of the game difference.
Feb. 3, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2749 posts
bbb ... It's highly unlikely we are going to expend any resources on gathering specific innings-data ... The sense of the Tournament Directors and the players themselves will drive this debate ... As far as the recent Palm Springs tournament goes, it's difficult to reach any conclusions since the format was different than an SSUSA sanctioned event ... That one, according to Omar's post, was scheduled on 1:15 time slots, and the SSUSA scheduling block is 1:30 ... That makes it virtually impossible to know how many of his shorter games, if any, would have gone seven innings with another 15 minutes of schedule space ...

There's no hurry, either, since there won't be any formal discussion or decisions made on this annual agenda topic until late November at the National Rules Committee sessions during the Convention ...

Feb. 3, 2019
NYGNYY
136 posts
BBB give it a break What else do you need to hear.?
Feb. 4, 2019
OZ40
522 posts
My nephew plays in a league and their games always end on time. They use a plastic tube at home plate to rest the ball on, most hit the ball the first time they swing! :-) Anyone for a senior t-ball tournament?
Feb. 4, 2019
curveball
Men's 65
664 posts
For the very greatest part, SSUSA Tournaments stay on schedule for start times. For whatever reason, the games on our fields at this tourney after the 2nd time slot were all way behind schedule. Reason, ??? One and one, wouldn't think that would slow it down..... Don't have an answer, just stating fact.
Feb. 4, 2019
Omar Khayyam
1323 posts
Curveball, if you are talking about the Palm Springs tournament, I think they put all their eggs in one basket—the one and one count. With 1:15 allowed for every game, we also experienced late starts consistently throughout the tournament. One reason is changing fields where one team finishes on time, but the other team is late arriving after finishing their game...then the late arriving team wants a chance to go to the bathroom, get a cold drink, etc., and the team that has been waiting for some time wants to warm up again. You get the idea. Had the time slots allowed for 1:30 for each game, I think all but one of our games would have started on time (the exception was where an early afternoon game started almost one hour late!

I, too, was puzzled as to why a one-and-one tournament couldn't keep to a 1:15 schedule. Proponents of the count always rave about how much time it saves.
Feb. 4, 2019
curveball
Men's 65
664 posts
I am Omar. Our group only used 2 fields, right next to each other. But, other ages were ahead of us for early games some days, when we arrived for an 11:30 start, they were only starting the 3rd inning in the game before us at our start time.......
I understand what you are saying Omar, but I was just baffled with one and one, but lagging so far behind schedule.
Feb. 5, 2019
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1220 posts
Omar, saving time is not the reason for 1 and 1 count(all games have time limits!)... getting more At bats and innings is the reason for 1 and 1... Also keeping the defense not standing around so old guys can weight for a T ball pitch is another great reason to go with 1 and 1. I rather trade 4 abs with 1 and 1 for 3 abs with 0-0 count anyday! Believe me the game moves along so much faster especially on D!
Feb. 5, 2019
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1220 posts
wait.. not weight LOL
Feb. 5, 2019
baseballbill
121 posts
swing for the fences: YOU GET IT !!!!!! Its surprising to me how players don't see it.
Feb. 6, 2019
Mason's Grandpa
19 posts
I also played in Palm Springs this year. What I noticed this year is the Umpires that were used (I did only see four umpires at work)3 of the 4 had NO CLUE how to umpire or know Senior Rules. In our Bracket we only saw 3 different Umpires. The fourth Umpire, I watched do a game in another bracket. Not only the umpiring was bad, the director (Vicky) caused big problems too. By the time players stopped arguing with the umpire because he did NOT know Senior rules the games were shorten. We had 3 different Umpires, we played by 3 different sets of rules. There was ONE Umpire that did a FANTASTIC job (Patrick). Every game we had Patrick our games went 7 innings. He knew the rules and kept the game moving. He had a GREAT Personality. He told me he Umpires in many different Softball Associations. IF I were an association looking for umpires for a tournament, Patrick would be the first umpire I would inquire about.
On a side note, The Palm Springs Tournament was one of the worst run tournaments you could ever enter. The tournament Director has NO IDEA on how to run a Tournament. I heard one team went 6-0 and came in 3rd place. She accused one team of forfeiting a game AFTER they won the game because they did not have enough healthy players to play in their next game. The team that LOST was credited with a Win. Instead of just following the Bracket, SHE totally screwed up the bracket. A losing team got a bye instead of the undefeated team. I do not know who won this bracket. Because of her changing the bracket around, the Records of the two teams that played in the Championship game were 3-2 and 0-4 before the game started. All teams want when playing in a Tournament is a FAIR WELL run tournament. Vicky's tournaments are are neither. I understand why the 6-0 team left. I highly recommend you do NOT enter her Tournaments unless you like CONTROVERSY.
Feb. 6, 2019
ffdonnie
Men's 60
131 posts
Geez guys relax. It's a little back-yarder in January. I look forward to this tourney each year because it's Palm Springs in 75* weather. Have a beer or two, make the best of it and have fun. I've been to much worse run tourneys. Quit crying.
Feb. 6, 2019
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1220 posts
I agree %100 with FFDonnie! total backyard, get some swings and beers in.. Thought our Bracket went pretty smooth and the umps got it mostly right.
Feb. 6, 2019
Omar Khayyam
1323 posts
Mason's Grandpa and ffdonnie both make good points. This tournament often has disagreements, usually involving Vicky and her helpers. In a recent year, it was forbidding the championship game to play on an empty good field, but rather making them play on an adjoining wicked sun field with multiple strikeouts. No such big deal this year, but it is true that umps are a bit inconsistent. Our first ump didn't believe in giving a courtesy foul after one strike, but the other three did. Three umps had a 12 foot top (or a bit more with one) on the pitches, but the other ump liked to cap it at 10 feet. Their personalities were pleasant for the most part and we didn't mind. One ump blew about two base running calls a game, but there was no bias so it evened out.

Which brings me to ffdonnie. It was indeed a fun tournament in a pleasant location. Our boys were happy just to be in warm 75º weather and enjoyed the games. It wasn't like the uber-tense Vegas Championships where players are strung pretty tight.
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