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Discussion: Interference or incidental contact?

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Feb. 5, 2019
cuda65
56 posts
Interference or incidental contact?
In a Senior league,55 and older, no sliding : Runner on first base, one out, batter hits a ground ball to the SS who throws to the second baseman to start a double play. second baseman steps on the bag and one second later the runner from first runs into the second baseman knocking him down. There was no interference call but play stopped because the second baseman was injured. I contend the runner going to first should have also been called out, but the umpire said the runner going to first would in his judgment been safe. My contention is that the umpire cannot make that assumption because of the interference. Awaiting you sage opinions.. Now, instead of one full second, it would have been a bang bang play. Your view change?
Feb. 5, 2019
stick8
1706 posts
BJ can correctly articulate the actual rule but it’s my understanding in SSUSA base runners are to avoid making contact with a fielder who is attempting to field or throw a ball.
Going by your description the runner is out. The ump can call a double play if in his or her judgement the base runner committed interference.
It’s tough to make a call without seeing the play that you reference.
Feb. 5, 2019
B.J.
603 posts
cuda65 .. no a double play call is not automatic with an interference call.. it is the judgement of the umpire.. below is the rule..

8.6 • WHEN SLIDING IS OPTIONAL - AVOIDING COLLISIONS
Sliding or diving into first base or the scoring line or scoring plate is permitted only to avoid a collision with a defensive player. This is an umpire’s judgment call and is not subject to protest or appeal. A player may slide or dive into second or third bases, or when returning to any base. A runner must make every effort to avoid colliding with opposing players while running the bases or sliding or diving. If in the umpire's judgment a runner misses a base to avoid a collision, the runner will not be called out. If in the umpire’s judgment the runner fails to avoid a collision with a defensive player involved in the play, the
ball will be declared dead and that runner called out. All base runners except the batter will be returned to their previous base unless forced to advance. If in the umpire’s judgment the runner's collision with the defensive player
involved in the play negates a double play, the umpire may award a second out.
Feb. 5, 2019
Bigboy97xp
11 posts
If this is a ssusa event in this situation the umpire has the option of calling the batter-runner out if he feels the interference was to negate the double play
Feb. 6, 2019
HJ
Men's 70
481 posts
Disagree with BigBoy. Your interpretation is batter is out if the interference was for the purpose of negating the DP. I wish that were the rule, but the rule doesn't say that. It is not a question of the runner's intent. Per the rule it is a question of whether in fact the runner prevented what would have been a DP from happening. As I read it and don't like it, the ump has to determine whether the DP would have happened but for the interference. A judgement call. Better rule would be if runner interferes the batter is also out, period. And yes this could be a penalty.
Feb. 14, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
610 posts
8.6 Not applicable to the original scenario and it doesn't matter if the umpire thinks a DP would have occurred and is not a judgement call.

Ring 'em Dano!
Feb. 14, 2019
B.J.
603 posts
HE'S BACK... again please read the rule book.. and if you disagree with a posting at least enrich us with your vast wealth of umpiring knowledge... and BTW you are wrong on your posting of "Ring 'em Dano!" what McGarrett said was Book'em Dano!
Feb. 15, 2019
Bigboy97xp
11 posts
HJ I take pride in being an ssusa umpire and know the rules I don't like to quote from the rule book but here I will. If in the umpires judgement the runner fails to avoid a collision with a defensive player involved with the play the ball will be declared dead and the runner called out.if in the umpires judgement the runners collision with the defensive player involved in the play negates as double play the umpire may award a second out.


Feb. 15, 2019
Bigboy97xp
11 posts
I meant a double play not as
Feb. 16, 2019
stick8
1706 posts
“If in the umpires judgement the runners collision with the defensive player involved negates a double play, the umpire may award a second out”
If I’m reading this correctly, and BJ can correct me if he reads this, if a runner starts on first and is advancing toward second on a ground ball and slides into the second baseman or shortstop preventing a throw to first that runner is automatically out no matter what.
The tricky part is determining if a double play is called. If there is a fast batter runner could he be still called out even though in the umpires judgement he would beat the throw? Or being called out would be only for slower batter runners?
Feb. 17, 2019
B.J.
603 posts
stick8.. the only time I would call a runner out who "SLID" into 2nd base would be if he did a rolling block type of a slide.. a "LOW" clean slide or veer off is what we want the runners to do.. so if the batter hit the ball to the 2nd baseman who threw to the SS and the runner slid into him low and clean my call would be the runner is out at 2nd if the ball had beaten the runner.. and play on.. the play at 2nd for interference is a tough call because many times the umpire sees the out and then turns to focus for a possible play at 1st.. umpires are trained to "follow the ball" but as we get older it's not as easy to see the play at 2nd then turn and focus on 1st base.. For a few years now at my clinics I have taught the HP umpire to make sure to "get out from behind the plate" and focus on 2nd base and stay focused at 2nd for the possible interference
Feb. 17, 2019
N ID
2 posts
B.J. you are absolutely correct it should not be interference if a low clean slide, but increasingly senior umps and players get upset if you slide cleanly, but seem to never do anything to the runner standing straight up to only duck at the last minute to intentionally interfere with the baseman making the throw.
Feb. 17, 2019
B.J.
603 posts
N ID.. there is nothing an umpire can do if a runner stands straight up and then ducks at the last minute "IF" he is running in the baseline.. that is where he belongs.. and there is no rule saying that he must duck out of the way of a thrown ball as long as he does not make contact with the defensive player that is throwing the ball.. if a thrown ball hits a runner in the base line there is no call.. live ball.. play on.. it is the defensive players job to take the throw, cross over the bag and then throw around the oncoming runner
Feb. 17, 2019
Bigboy97xp
11 posts
B.J. I agree except if the runner going from first to second intentionally interferes with a thrown ball the succeeding runner would be called out
Feb. 18, 2019
B.J.
603 posts
Bigboy.. yes, but to get an intentional interference call I would have to see the runner doing something out of the ordinary.. as in raising his arms up or stepping sideways into a thrown ball.. NOT just standing straight up in the baseline and taking one for the team
Feb. 18, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
610 posts
For someone whose catch phrase is read the rulebook, I say take your own advice and comprehend what others write. I said in the ORIGINAL SCENARIO, not your conceived scenario.

8.6 is about avoiding collisions and when sliding is optional. In the ORIGINAL SCENARIO with a no sliding rule, yeah I'm getting the out at first also.

Once again you've applied the wrong rule to a situation. You're talking about when a runner is TRYING to avoid a collision with a fielder and contact is made, the umpire may in their judgment rule a double play. That wasn't the case in original scenario.



Feb. 18, 2019
Bigboy97xp
11 posts
Wayne 37 all organizations basically have the same rule with similar penalties when an offensive player interferes with a defensive players opportunity to make a play depending on if the interference is before or after the initial out either the preceding or succeeding runner can also be called out
Feb. 19, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
610 posts
Bigboy97xp,

Interference is an immediate dead ball. I believe as what you're referring is to interference by team personal not allowed on the field of play, or a runner who continues at running the bases in order to get the defense to make a play on them. That would be a delayed dead ball.
Feb. 19, 2019
stever
Men's 65
84 posts
Wayne37...just a question, why does it seem whenever a rule discussion occurs that you are the sole dissenting opinion in opposition to all the other umpire's interpretation?
Feb. 19, 2019
PoollShark
Men's 50
87 posts
Slide or avoid contact has always been what I thought the rule is. Run in to me or one of my teammates and I feel it's intentional and you may have a problem. I have a family to support.
Feb. 20, 2019
B.J.
603 posts
Wayne.. interference by team personal is not a delayed dead ball as you stated above.. below is the rule

9.1 • DEAD BALL.. The ball is dead and not in play:

H. When the offensive team causes interference.

P. When a coach near third base runs in the direction of home plate on or near the baseline while the fielder is attempting to make a play, and thereby draws a throw to home plate.
Feb. 20, 2019
stick8
1706 posts
Cuda65, since there is no sliding in your league, here’s a suggestion you might wish to run by those who make your league rules.
Runners can overrun second and overrun third by veering off on one side similar to how you can overrun first. This way they can keep running and not have to stop on a dime like many senior players have difficulty doing and also avoid collisions.
For years I played in a winter indoor league (OZ40 on this board was a teammate) where we could do this and while unusual at first it ended up working out pretty well. The only thing you had to be careful was if you made a turn toward the next base you could be tagged out.
Feb. 20, 2019
Omar Khayyam
1289 posts
stick8, our senior league has the same run-through rule and it has worked successfully for more than 15 years. One minor point, although it is not codified as a rule, the runner should run away from the ball. In other words, if the throw is coming in to second from the right side, the runner should go left of the bag (safer for both runner and fielder) and alternatively, if the ball is coming from the left, run to the right of the bag. This is true not only for infield plays as well as outfield, but for the rarer options of a potential double play from pitcher to first to third and the runner dashing to third (run by on the right).
Feb. 20, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
610 posts
stever, what do you mean by dissenting?

BJ....I gave some situations (and there aren't that many) that are a delayed dead ball. I also wrote interference is an immediate dead ball.

9.1.P. ~ The coach is allowed on the field. It is only a dead ball and out if the fielder throws the ball to home plate due to the deliberate confusion.

9.2.V. When, in the umpire’s judgment, a coach touches and physically assists a runner. EFFECT: A delayed dead ball signal will be given and play shall continue. The touched and assisted runner shall be ruled out and all other subsequent play will be ruled upon accordingly.

So not all interference is neccessarily a dead ball.
Feb. 20, 2019
Bigboy97xp
11 posts
Wayne37 what I was inferring to was in some organizations when an offensive player interferes with a defensive player after he is called out the player closest to home is also called out ssusa doesn't have this rule so the batter runner would be called out
Feb. 21, 2019
B.J.
603 posts
wayne, I agree that a coach assisting a runner is a delayed dead ball call.. but it's not interference and rule 9.2 specifically says that interference is a DEAD BALL.. the rule does not cite any exceptions

SECTION 9 MISCELLANEOUS

9.1 • DEAD BALL

The ball is dead and not in play:

H. When the offensive team causes interference.
Feb. 22, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
610 posts
I understand what you're saying Bigboy97xp. SSUSA For some reason will cover situations that might have occurred in the past that there is actually is a rule in place covering some of the situation that works sufficiently and neglect situations that are likely to occur.

And BJ why would you not call 9.2.V interference?

You can't just throw a blanket over everything that happens on the field.....RULE 9.2 pertains to the ball is in play. No exception needed.
Feb. 22, 2019
B.J.
603 posts
wayne, yes.. you are correct 9.2 gives you live ball and delayed dead ball scenarios

but 9.1 gives you the DEAD BALL scenarios read 9.1 H

I wouldn't call 9.2V interference

1) because a coach assisting a runner does not impede or confuse a defensive player?

2) RULE 9.1 H .. states that .. The ball is dead and not in play.. When the offensive team causes interference

3) and last 9.2V is a delayed dead ball call so it can't come under the interference rule









Feb. 22, 2019
B.J.
603 posts
Bigboy.. just for info on the player closest to home being called out..
there is no AUTOMATIC 2nd out using SSUSA RULES and SSUSA doesn't specifically spell it out but with "ALL" interference calls the umpire has the option to call a 2nd runner out and that runner may be the one closest to home "IF" in their judgement the out/play could have been made..
Feb. 23, 2019
txnighttrain
83 posts
Intereference is an immediate dead ball. The actions of the runner or offensive player dictate the call. The umpire is not supposed to wait until the play is done and decide if they could have gotten someone out. I umpire and that is the proper way to call it.
Feb. 23, 2019
stick8
1706 posts
Omar that’s precisely how our league worked. Being an indoor league and the surface being carpet, no sane person would ever slide!!
Feb. 23, 2019
B.J.
603 posts
nighttrain.. yes INT. is an immediate dead ball and the offensive player who interfered is out.. THEN it becomes the judgement of the umpire if the defense could have gotten another out "IF" INT. didn't occur .. it is not an automatic double play
Feb. 23, 2019
Bigboy97xp
11 posts
B.J. I believe that is what I said
Feb. 23, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
610 posts
So coach's interference doesn't come under the definition of interference because it is a delayed dead ball?

That's a new one on me.
Feb. 24, 2019
B.J.
603 posts
wayne, yes there can be coaches INT. which would be an immediate dead ball see rule P below.. but we were discussing a coach assisting a runner that is not INT.

P. When a coach near third base runs in the direction of home plate on or near the baseline while the fielder is attempting to make a play, and thereby draws a throw to home plate.
March 2, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
610 posts
You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.....again.
March 2, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2561 posts
Well, that's enough of the personal attacks on this one, too ... Another successful thread kill ... **THREAD CLOSED **
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