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Online now: 1 member: TABLE SETTER 11; 57 anonymousDiscussion: Over-ruled call confusion
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| June 3, 2019 45caliber 4 posts | Over-ruled call confusion Here's the situation: Pool play game for seeding. Tournament is using a scoring plate rather than a score in line this weekend. Weather is sunny and dry. Team we are playing has as runner come around third and we throw home. Runner doesn't touch plate. If he touches plate he's safe as the throw was half a second late. Umpire calls runner out for not touching the plate (obvious correct call). The team with the runner called out goes ballistic. Their argument to umpire is in their previous game, the umpire told them they didn’t have to touch the plate for some reason. For some reason, the tourney director of umpires gets involved and she overrules the game umpire and allows the run to score. Note, this was the third run of the game scored by the opposing team. The first two runners touch the scoring plate. Tourney umpire director reasons that the reason for overturning the umpire's call is because previous umpire in a previous game that morning played by opposing team told that team they didn’t have to touch the plate, Even though, again, previous runs scored in our game they touch the plate. This run led to more. Note, since there is no scoring line so how do you determine if foot down on a bang-bang play? We ended up winning the game, but are confused by and still disagree with this decision by the field director. This isn't to be taken as a whinny post, but are we off base thinking this wrong? |
| June 3, 2019 titanhd Men's 60 638 posts | Scoring Line OR Scoring Plate. If there is a Scoring Plate runner must touch it. To my knowledge if there is a Scoring Plate there is should be no Scoring Line. Must Touch Plate! |
| June 3, 2019 creins 54 posts | Not sure why the Tournament Director would overrule. I would take this up with the main office. 8.9(2) • CROSSING OR TOUCHING STRIKE MAT OR BATTER’S BOX The runner shall also be called out if he touches or crosses over any portion of the strike mat or the batter’s box. The ball remains live. |
| June 3, 2019 Monty33 Men's 40 8 posts | Creins......that rule wouldn't apply to this situation as the complex had a scoring plate which was different than home plate/mat. 45caliber.... not sure where yall played but we also had a scoring plate in MD this weekend. Our umpire, prior to the game, told us from the scoring plate to the backstop was a safe area for runners to cross. I guess it would be the umpires judgement where straight lined from the scoring plate to the backstop would be, on a bang bang play. Probably doesnt help answer your question but thats how it was handled for us. |
| June 3, 2019 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | 8.10 • SCORING LINE AND SCORING PLATE A base runner’s foot down on or down past the scoring line or down on the scoring plate prior to the ball being received by a defensive player touching the strike mat results in the scoring of a run. Since I did not see this play but will use your scenario as written, the runner should have been called safe but should have been out only if the defense appealed him missing the plate. This play at the plate is a little different than what we are taught about in regular softball clinics but happens all the time in softball and baseball where you see the runner come back and touch the plate just in case the defense appeals. I could go through what we are taught in clinics but not here and am curious on any practicing umpire input. That is part of the beauty of SSUSA's hit and sit on a homerun, no appeals. Did anyone else see when Mark McGwire hit a homerun and missed first base but walked back to touch it to avoid the appeal? Ok, with that out of the way, as an umpire or UIC (director of the umpires), I have a serious issue about the umpire that told them that they did not have to touch the scoring plate. That should not have had any bearing on this game. It was wrong information. As a UIC I am not overruling anyone. Now if I was watching the play and see something very wrong (usually prompted by yelling teams), I may have a conversation with them to let them think out what happened and draw their own conclusion, but unless we have a protest situation on a rule, I am not there to overrule the umpire and wouldn't be too happy working for that UIC again if they tried that on my game. I have lots of stories on this general subject, but this is definitely enough for now. The moral of the story on this part of it is two wrongs (one umpire, one UIC) do not make a right. 45Caliber, where were you at out of curiosity? |
| June 3, 2019 creins 54 posts | 8.10 • SCORING LINE AND SCORING PLATE A base runner’s foot down on or down past the scoring line or down on the scoring plate prior to the ball being received by a defensive player touching the strike mat results in the scoring of a run |
| June 3, 2019 45caliber 4 posts | Monty33 and Nancy Allen: This was in Columbia, MO. Missouri Open. Field director of umpires “Donna”. Nancy: I would think No appeal would be necessary since ball came directly into the catcher who was on the mat. Runner ran over scoring plate without foot down. Umpire made decisive call of OUT right then. |
| June 4, 2019 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | 45caliber, thanks for the information. I will give you a non-senior softball example. Sunday E league a 70 year old has a young guy team. He runs home and misses the plate by about ten feet, no play at home. A guy comes to the backstop wanting to know why he's not out automatically. I told him that the other team needed to appeal him missing the plate, but they wouldn't because they didn't notice (and probably didn't know to appeal). Of course he has to go tell him. "I missed the plate?". "Only by about ten feet.". Since you stated that the runner beat the throw home, I see it as the same situation. I have never had this happen to me in a senior game...yet. BJ, what you think? |
| June 4, 2019 TimMcElroy 942 posts | We had a situation in the Glen Burnie tournament this weekend that I suspect was similar to what may have occurred in Missouri. The parks staff put out scoring plates prior to the start of play and weren't around to put scoring lines down once games began. A runner stepped on the scoring plate and slipped. With an eye on safety, tournament staff made a decision to proceed as follows: Runner is SAFE if he has a foot down on the scoring plate, on the ground beyond the scoring plate or on the ground at some point between the scoring plate and the backstop. Note- A properly positioned umpire can see the strike mat, scoring plate and scoring line, allowing them to make the correct call. Runner is OUT if he does not have a foot down on the ground in scoring area when the catcher gets the ball OR if he runs in between the scoring plate and the strike mat. I know Donna to be a quality official that is highly trained, highly prepared and a proponent of player safety. I suspect that there is a little more to this story. It is possible that the situation I described above for MD also happened in MO, and the umpire at the field didn't get or understand the modification message. |
| June 4, 2019 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Tim, I totally agree with you. It is a good point about throw down scoring plates. I have worked with them before but never had a problem. 45caliber did not say if it was a fixed scoring plate or not. I also believe that Donna is a top notch official. I was surprised because I kind of assumed that the tournament that he was talking about was in Arizona for a couple of reasons. It would be nice if people included where they reside when signing up for an account here. I still believe that the umpire on his game was wrong, and that it should have been an appeal play unless very specific modifications were given to the umpire crew; either way the runner should not have been called out intially. These of course should have been covered in any plate meetings prior to games. Tim, do you think that throw down plates are an issue that maybe require only a fixed scoring plate (with the exception of wet conditions) or scoring line only? Thanks. |
| June 4, 2019 TimMcElroy 942 posts | I am happy with the current setup because scoring lines are the safer option- particularly at parks that have sprinkler systems (used to keep the infield dust down). |
| June 4, 2019 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | This seems to be the "issue of the week" ... In Rock 'n Reno at Golden Eagle, we had a complete absence of scoring plates OR scoring lines ... The facility has recently had carpet renovation/upgrades and they declined (more accurately: refused) to paint the commitment or scoring lines or the pitcher's boxes on the fields and they won't use conventional field chalk on the carpet ... We used the flat soccer "cones" to define the lines and "umpire's judgment" on the pitching boxes ... No major controversies ensued, but it was not the preferred or mandated field prep specification ... Fortunately, the umpires had an excellent 9-day run by any evaluation criteria and we got by ... Well done! ... |
| June 4, 2019 B.J. 1105 posts | Nancy.. with tour. ball that is why it is VERY important that all the umpires are on the same page and that's not easy with big tournaments especially with multiple complexes.. I have no problem with a UIC getting involved to settle "THAT" kind of dispute "IF" there was confusion and some umpires were allowing the runners to by-pass the scoring plate in earlier games then I think she made the right decision, the runner per the OP would have been safe if they had touched the plate.. Tim.. I agree about the pre-game meetings but sometimes they get skipped, when games are running late and everyone is in a hurry to start the game.. these meetings would definitely help because the umpire would have instructed the teams on what to do Dave great idea with the cones |
| June 4, 2019 45caliber 4 posts | Tim, Nancy "I suspect that there is a little more to this story" Not really Not trying to keep issue going, but facts in Missouri as stated in OP are correct. Dry conditions. Fixed scoring plate. Error revolved around a lone umpire in an earlier game (0830 time) that told the team they didn't have to touch home plate (this was confirmed). Hard to swallow part is when eam playing us scored (1 pm game), they did touch, but with a play at the plate they went passed and umpire called them out. Issue is the overrule from the field director (which the umpire did not agree with either). The reasoning was since the umpire in that team's game 1 told them they didn't have to touch the plate, they were under the impression they didn't have to touch the plate in every game that day. Umpires should all be on the same page. If a plate is in play, that's where the groundrule meeting should cover those issues. Yes, it had an effect on the game but not the ultimate outcome. Bottom line, I think most of us would agree a scoring line is preferable to a plate for many reasons. It's rare to see the plate anymore. |
| June 4, 2019 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, thanks I agree. If there was an umpire meeting where this was discussed, then I am not sure why this umpire was not on the same page. If there was not a meeting, I believe that the initial call is safe and only changed if the defense appeals. There is definitely no appeal needed on a scoring line. I am not sure of the logic in not having to touch the plate except in very wet conditions. 45caliber, thanks for the additional information. I don't know those fields, and Tim was right to throw a wrench at me for it. I have very rarely worked with a throw down scoring plate (the park always pointed them the wrong direction for a plate). I also prefer the scoring line except occasionally having to explain that it is not football; so breaking the plane is not valid in being safe. As I said unless there was an umpire meeting stating otherwise, I would have called safe but would have called them out on an appeal. Did your catcher notice that he didn't touch the scoring plate? That is probably a moot point since the umpire was so quick to call the out. It sounds like it got a little chaotic. I am sorry that you had a bad experience. Dave, thanks for sharing that. It is definitely a novel idea to the problem. |
