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Discussion: interpretation

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June 12, 2019
curty
Men's 60
169 posts
interpretation
situation: Bottom of last inning, bases loaded, no out, home team down 2 runs. Batter hits sharp single to left field. r1, (on 3rd base) scores, r2 (from 2b) attempts to score but throw will easily have him out at home, so he retreats to 3b- after crossing the scoring line. Catcher throws back to 3b ( no touch at plate), over throwing the 3rd baseman, at which time r3 (from 1st base) also retreats towards 2b. R3 is the coach. Ump calls runner r2 out for retreating. Immediately r3 begins arguing the call, leaving the base path to confront the ump. He is called out for that. Batter/ runner, confused of course, is then tagged out by short stop between 1b and 2b. Initial ruling is triple play. After 25 minutes of "discussion" the ruling is over turned concerning batter/ runner, who is returned to first base, w/ 2 outs. Next batter flies out- game over, sort of. Original discussion continues, with all offering opinions.
My interpretation- triple play- game over initially. Have now been asked to submit this for official ruling. Any takers?
June 12, 2019
lb16
Men's 50
142 posts
I have triple play ball game! Ump got it right the 1st time.
June 12, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
574 posts
I don't even know what you just said. Left out a lot of detail it seems.
June 12, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
574 posts

situation: Bottom of last inning, bases loaded, no out, home team down 2 runs. Batter hits sharp single to left field. r1. Sorry this is all that loaded when I read the original post.

What was coach/runner arguing about and what was the final decision by the umpires?

You have me confused with your terminology. Sound like R3 scored. R1 doesn't become R3 until after the play is over. It reads to me like the same runner was called out twice the way it reads.
June 12, 2019
Uncle Mike
Men's 60
114 posts
Sounds like R2 crossed the commitment line (not the scoring line) and is automatically out by returning to 3rd by rule. R3 is out for being out of the baseline by rule as well. Batter runner is out too, even if he is confused. Game over
June 12, 2019
JimmyG
Men's 55
33 posts
Agree with Uncle Mike
June 12, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
574 posts
Uncle Mike,

How is R3 out of baseline (base path)? The runner creates their own base path. They can run out into left field on their way to 3rd if they desire. Curty's runner numbering has got me. confused

The batter/runner becomes a runner after reaching 1B, BTW.
June 12, 2019
dug8
Men's 55
15 posts
Is R2 out because he crossed the commitment line?
Is he out because he retreated "towards" 3rd?
Is he out because he retreated all of the way back and stepped on 3rd?
Is he safe because the catcher never went back and touched home plate with the ball in hand?
Is he safe if tagged by the catcher while retreating "towards" 3rd.

I was under the belief that once past the commit line, the only way to get that runner out was to step on home plate with the ball in hand. Also, agree that unless R3 had a play being made on him, there is no "base" path.
June 12, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
574 posts
Good questions dug8. I'm glad it wasn't my game is all I can say.
June 12, 2019
B.J.
547 posts
curty.. runner 1 scores.. runner 2 you said passed the scoring line?? ..I assume you meant commitment line.. R2 should have been called out immediately when he re-crossed the C/L going back toward 3rd.. R3 leaving the base path and arguing the call.. a runner basically has no actual base path to be in "IF" a play is not being made on him.. not seeing the actual play I'm not sure why the umpire called him out unless he left the field of play or was tagged out? R1 is out for being tagged while off the base..
June 12, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
574 posts
The most fascinating part of this post is that the offensive team took a long shot in sending the runner home from 2B when they would have had bases loaded, no outs, and the tying runs on 2nd and 3rd.
June 13, 2019
AJC
Men's 60
120 posts
Actually the tying run would have been on 3rd and the winning run on 2nd with no outs so wht risk it with no outs if there was a chance of getting the runner thrown out at home.
June 13, 2019
stick8
1687 posts
Going by the play as described:
óObviously R1 scored. R2 crossed the commit line and then went back across the commit line so he is out. So far its 1 run in and 1 out but the play is still live. R3 who ran across to argue with the ump should not have been called out for being out of the base path because according to the scenario, he was not avoiding a tag. Base runners can take any path they want as long as they arenít avoiding a tag or they donít go into the dugout. Even though he ran over to argue with the ump he still must be tagged out. Itís not specified that he was. Did R3 get to second? Did a fielder tag R3 as he was arguing? Did or when did the the umpire call time? These arenít specified.
óThe batter runner is definitely out for being tagged between first and second.
óBased on the scenario too many questions for me to make a definite ruling. What was decided appears correct based on the post although Iíd put R3 at second since it doesnít say he was tagged or forced out.


June 13, 2019
Uncle Mike
Men's 60
114 posts
I understand what you guys are saying- runner makes his own base path. But the SSUSA rulebook defines the base path as a direct line from base to base and that you can deviate 3 feet from that direct path. The information we were given said the umpire called him out for being out of the base line. That's why I said he was the second out.

I'd love to see what would happen if you were a runner on first and you ran a circle around the pitcher before you went to 2nd. I may try that in the So Cal Championships next weekend. I'll let you know. Or maybe I'll just ask the UIC there.

Anyway, thanks for all the information I get from this site- I'm still learning things !! Good luck, health, and fortune to all !!!!
June 13, 2019
AJC
Men's 60
120 posts
I should also add... why did the 3rd base coach send R2 home in that situation ? It sounds like it wasnt even a close play, R2 saw that he was going to be out so he tried to revert back to 3rd base. This whole scenario would have been avoided by stopping R2 at 3rd.

Sure its easy to say in hindsight, but from the above scenario, this wasnt even a close play.
June 13, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
574 posts
a direct line from base to base and that you can deviate 3 feet from that direct path.

This for the purpose of making a play on the runner who is avoiding a tag.
June 13, 2019
Uncle Mike
Men's 60
114 posts
The key sentence to me is : After 25 minutes of discussion, only the batter runner was returned to 1st base safely and there were 2 outs. So it was upheld that R3 was out of the base path. Otherwise he should of appealed being called out of the base path and won.
June 13, 2019
curty
Men's 60
169 posts
my bad on "scoring line" as it was commit line. Runner called for out of base path went from second base to home plate in order to argue the commitment line violation. A part of the ensueing argument centered around the Coach calling time out before leaving his base & prior to the batter/runner being tagged. That one was a sticking point, but as time was NOT CALLED BY EITHER UMP, the play should have been a triple play. The coach was tagged, in jest, while arguing the call, so he could have been called out for that. My reasoning was he failed to touch bases in proper order. Some times it may be more expedient- league play- to satisfy everybody as best as we can and move on. My mentor as a rookie official told me- if neither team complains, the call is right.
June 14, 2019
stick8
1687 posts
Uncle Mike, that umpire was incorrect calling R3 out for running out of the baseline when he ran over to argue the call. This tells me the play was still live and in order for R3 to be legally out he has to be tagged or forced (if he didnít acquire second).
Where you quote the 3 ft area that serves as the base path is correct but that only applies when a runner tries to avoid being tagged. When not avoiding a tag runners may take any path they wish to acquire the next base.
Even though it sounds sarcastic but should you choose to run around the pitcher in a circle on your way to second from first you wouldnít be out (unless your avoiding a tag) but I certainly wouldnít recommend it!!
June 14, 2019
Uncle Mike
Men's 60
114 posts
@stick8
That's why I said he should of appealed and won. The umpire stuck with his call of out of the base path. All you have left at that point is an appeal to overturn that call.

Mute point since they tagged him anyway !
June 14, 2019
stick8
1687 posts
Uncle Mike, I didnít read Curtys post until just now. Iím not sure what he means by ďtagged, in jest while arguing the call.... Ē If it means a defensive player actually tagged him whilel he was arguing the call then heíd be out!!
June 14, 2019
stick8
1687 posts
And youíre correct about appealing, presuming itís to the other umpire.
June 14, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 60
574 posts
I probably would have tossed the coach just for running across the infield to argue.

The runner still wasn't out of the base path as strange as that may seem. The tag was where he would have been out. Ironically, he never passed 3rd (missed base). Like I said, he would have been in Parking Lot City for his actions.
June 15, 2019
TXTrouble3
Men's 50
6 posts
Great scenario discussion...I do have a question regarding "Commit Line"...
If/when runner crosses this line and tries to retreat back to 3rd...are you simply out ? Or does the defense have to tag you or touch home plate? Seems runner should need to be tagged or plate touched...for an out...unless totally for safety and zero tolerance for retreat from commit line.
Thanks in advance!
June 15, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2438 posts
TXTrouble3 ... Base runner retreating back to the 3rd base side of the C/L is an automatic "Out" call by the umpire ... No tag OR force play at home activity required ... "Retreating back" means a foot down on the C/L or down on the 3rd base side of the C/L ... Hope this helps ...
June 15, 2019
stick8
1687 posts
TXTrouble3, Dave is corrrct, itís an automatic out. No tagging is necessary. And the play is still live.
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