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Discussion: Correct call

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July 22, 2019
RDSinNEOHIO
Men's 60
23 posts
Correct call
Rec league game last Friday night. We're down 6-5, bottom of 7th, one out, bases loaded. Batter hits long fly to left over left fielders head, but he makes an ESPN worthy catch over the shoulder. Runner on third (potential tying run) left early but did not cross commit line. Sees the catch and runs back to third to tag up. Meanwhile, runner on second does tag up, gets about 1/2 to third and sees the other runner still on third so goes back to second. Ball gets thrown around to cutoff man who eventually throws to second. Second baseman catches ball steps on second and ump calls the runner out, says it's a force play, double-play, ballgame. We argue to no avail that runner had tagged up and since he's going back to the bag, needed to be tagged to be out. What's the call?
July 22, 2019
nails
Men's 70
43 posts
No force play. Unless ump didnít c the runner tag up.
July 22, 2019
lb16
Men's 50
160 posts
Never a force play on a fly ball tag up. In your scenario runner would have had to be tagged for an official out to be made. This is a timing play not a force out play. Only way out should have been recorded is if fielder tagged runner at 2nd before runner on third scored. How did your protest turn out?
July 22, 2019
lb16
Men's 50
160 posts
Miss worded a little out could have still been made if runner at 2nd was tagged.Run would have still counted if 3rd base runner scored before tag was made.
July 22, 2019
B.J.
713 posts
lb16 is correct..

question...
did the umpire agree that the runner did tag up after the catch and was just returning to 2nd??

because if he didn't see the tag up then he would call the runner out for not tagging up once the ball was thrown to 2nd and the runner was running back .. many times umpires mistakenly consider the runner going back to tag a base a force out which is not correct..

either way the the runner on 3rd scored before the play at 2nd so the run should have counted and now a tie game
July 22, 2019
mck71
217 posts
BJ, scenario as described never stated the runner from 3rd scored before the play at 2B (says "Sees the catch and runs back to third to tag up.") so without that pertinent info, very difficult to make the call. Your question on what the umpire "saw" (or didn't) makes the call. Everything else is correct from what you and lb16 state.

I always TRY and position myself so I can see catch, 3B AND 2B when doing a single man game (scenario never stated it but my ASSUMPTION is that this was 1 umpire). Not easy to see all bases in this scenario but if you can slide right deep enough, you might be able to catch 1B runner in your periphery as well on the left field fly ball.

As an umpire this is a "situational" scenario, you KNOW tying run is on 3B and winning run on 2B, understanding that I would be paying more attn to see if 2B jumped early (especially on a "long fly ball") as I would assume that the runner on 3B SHOULD NEVER MOVE ON A FLY BALL WITH LESS THAN 2 OUTS (silly when they do).

Just my 2 cents.
July 22, 2019
RDSinNEOHIO
Men's 60
23 posts
The umpire said the runner on 2nd did tag up, but it was still a force at 2nd and he did not need to be tagged. To make matters worse on your other question, the runner on third actually did cross home plate for what should have been the tying run before the out at second, but the ump said he was out to make the call at second and did not see the runner cross the plate and therefore would not allow the run to count.
July 22, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2861 posts
Sure hope that umpire didn't trip and fall over his red-tipped white cane out there and get hurt ...
July 22, 2019
mck71
217 posts
TOO funny Dave!

Sadly RDS, this sounds like an "I am not getting paid to do extra innings" umpire and they blew it big time so they could be done. I am NOT a fan of extra innings when I am working but it is part of the job, suck it up and get it done right!

But what really cracks me up is what were they doing OUT to make a call at 2B which they BELIEVED to be a FORCE OUT? lol
July 22, 2019
B.J.
713 posts
wow... i didn't want to say this earlier but I agree with mck71 ... the umpire just didn't want to go to extra innings..

here's are a couple of points of interest.. 1st if the umpire had gone out to make the call at 2nd it's definitely a 1 man system.. I don't care how good of an umpire you are it is impossible to see everything ... so this guy must have been "really good" (lol) he was able to see a great ESPN catch in LF , he also saw the runner on 3rd GOING BACK to 3rd to tag up.. and he also at the same time saw the runner from 2nd who ALREADY had tagged and was headed to 3rd .. WOW....

last but not least .. an umpire can't say the run "didn't score" before the 3rd out if he didn't see when the runner actually scored.. you have to assume he was safe and that he scored..
July 22, 2019
Spock
Men's 50
12 posts
I'd be much more concerned with the fact that through 6 complete innings, there were only 5 runs scored. Just saying.
July 23, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
If the throw beat the runner from 2nd base to the bag, no tag is required. Simply step on the base. The fact that the runner tagged up has nothing to do with anything returning to the base. So I have no idea what all the carrying on is about. Just because the umpire said force out doesn't mean he got the call wrong.

If the run scores before the out at 2nd out is made. Tie ball game.

Don't know why the umpire would have to assume the runner scored. New one on me.

Hire more umpires or flip a coin. Doesn't matter to me. I see a cold beer with my name on it as a great compensation prize.

Peace out.
July 23, 2019
B.J.
713 posts
wayne... thank you ... you never fail to give the wrong answer on this site and also on the "ask the umpire site .. great job...

read your rules... once a runner "legally" tags up on a fly ball catch and then attempts to advance but then returns to the base it is a tag play

and the reason the umpire would have to assume that the runner scored is because he failed to turn and look to see... what would you do call him out and then say well I didn't look but he was out???

I will agree with you on hiring a 2nd umpire if you don't like the calls being made in a 1 man system
July 23, 2019
lb16
Men's 50
160 posts
Wayne - Slow down take a deep breath read the situation. Runner on 2nd legally tagged up realized runner on 3rd didn't and went back to 2nd he has to be tagged by fielder for a legal out. What part of scenario don't you get as usual!
July 24, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
You're going to have show me that one as I've never read, discussed such in a meeting, nor ever seen it called

Stalking is creepy
July 31, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
I searched and cannot find a ruling in the SSUSA rules that supports your claim. Saying somebody is wrong doesn't make you right counselor. There are lemmings everywhere that can't answer a direct question.

Again, stalking is creepy!
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