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Online now: 2 members: 9 ball, TABLE SETTER 11; 113 anonymousDiscussion: Use one up for home runs this year
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| Oct. 18, 2019 tall_thunder Men's 50 82 posts | Use one up for home runs this year I'm not sure when the committee gets together to discuss any rules changes for the up coming season, so I'm going to put this suggestion out there now. With the best bats and hard balls used in senior softball, I believe that senior softball should consider going to one-up for home runs. Some recreational tournaments have used this. I would explain the home run rule like this: Once both teams have reached their home runs allowed, you would be allowed to go one up the rest of the game. But, home team could not win game on a one up Homer, that's a disadvantage for the Visitors. This rule change doesn't help one team or the other, since both teams would have to have used up their allowed amount of home runs before the one up would come into play. I hope you'll consider this suggestion. Thunder Out. |
| Oct. 19, 2019 DCPete 409 posts | Agree 100%; they used to have this rule but got rid of it for some reason? One-up can add a lot of strategy to the game making it a lot more fun. |
| Oct. 19, 2019 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | The SSUSA National Rules Committee sessions this year are at the annual convention in Las Vegas from December 4-6, 2019 ... All sessions are open to the public, and historically the Committee Chair has granted public participation privileges except for the actual voting session(s) ... If you have items you would like for the Committee to consider, the ONLY allowed methods for submission are [1] Identifiable correspondence by email (to: info@seniorsoftball.com with "Rules" in the Subject line) or regular mail (to the SSUSA Home Office) OR [2] Personal appearance at the Committee sessions ... NOTE: Message Board commentary is SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED from consideration for Agenda inclusion due to the generally anonymous and largely unregulated nature of this forum ... We welcome any and all properly submitted proposals ... |
| Oct. 19, 2019 TimMcElroy 942 posts | I am strongly opposed to the one-up rule because it actually helps teams hide out at the lower level. It is normally a AAA team / player that makes this suggestion- and quite frequently it is a team / player that is able to compete at a higher level, but for wahtever reason does not. |
| Oct. 19, 2019 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | Tall_thunder and DCPete ... How would you feel about a true one-up arrangement for all ages and ratings of play? ... Visitor can hit one HR in the top of the first ... Home can hit up to two HR's in bottom of first (assuming the visitor hit one) ... Thereafter, neither team may hit one to go more than one up? ... Excess HR's would, of course, be dead ball outs ... Sound like fun? ... Nope, not to me either! ... |
| Oct. 19, 2019 chico senior Men's 60 134 posts | Our team for the most part plays NCSSA tournaments. They use the one up rule and personally I feel it is the one rule that I like that is better then SSUSA home rune rules. By the way, when we hit that extra home run it is a dead ball walk, not an out. SSUSA tournaments for the most part group teams by age and ability. For example everyone is a 65 AAA and they all are supposed to be of equal ability so whatever you want to use for a home run rule is fine with me (even though our team hit like 3 HRS all year). In NCSSA tournaments your bracket might be made up of mixed ages and abilities. If you are a 65 team playing against a 55 team it is nice to not get home runned to death. I know that I have talked with lots of guys playing in NCSSA tournaments and they prefer the one up rule. Also, Tim, I don’t see any evidence to support your assertions that “it is a team / player that is able to compete at a higher level, but for whatever reason does not” that supports the one up rule. Just my 2 cents worth. |
| Oct. 19, 2019 Wizard of Oz Men's 50 16 posts | Hey Dave, how would you feel about making the HR limits the same for ALL age brackets? That would be a novel concept. Instead of making it easier for one age bracket to make up the 5 runs they have to spot, and harder for other age brackets. If the 40s get 8Hrs for Major and 6 for AAA, so should every other age bracket. You can’t have the same equalizer rule in all the age brackets if the HRs totals aren’t the same in all brackets. |
| Oct. 20, 2019 DCPete 409 posts | Actually Dave no one should have a problem with your "true" one-up arrangement since it's really the fairest possible way for teams to compete from a HR perspective. Especially compared to all the current complaints about which HR rules to use between teams with different ratings and again it adds more strategy to the game when a player has to decide if or when he should try to hit one out instead of just blasting away until you reach your limit. |
| Oct. 20, 2019 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | chico - The NCSSA model was my inspiration for that suggestion ... But the DBO structure for excess HR's is important to stay away from a team having eight straight guys (or more in an open inning) blast the ball into the parking lot for their five runs! ... And, as Tim inferred, it's the perfect disguise for teams desperate to play down as opposed to where they know they belong ... Wizard - The practical effect of your idea would be in effect a return to "open softball" ... You bring your best 10, I'll bring mine and we'll see who's best on Sunday afternoon ... HR limits serve a very valuable role of compelling a step up to the appropriate rating level for those who have a bigger HR appetite ... DCPete - I agree, but only with the inclusion of the DBO component on excess HR's ... At the risk of redundancy, a lot of these "issues" go away if other rules were modified to reduce (or ideally, eliminate) out-of-rating roster exemptions ... At least 85% of the calls we receive from managers on roster adds include, somewhere in the conversation, the question "..What does that do to our three-count??.." ... As recently as the 2007 season, all teams played at the rating of the single highest player experience history rating on the roster ... I miss the "good old days"! ... |
| Oct. 21, 2019 Wizard of Oz Men's 50 16 posts | Dave....I’m not arguing HR limits... I agree each rating should have them. My argument is they should be the same across the board for all age brackets. You give give 40 Majors 8 then the 50 Majors should have 8, all the way up to 85 years old.There should not be any age discrimination in Senior Softball. I’m all for helping lower ranked teams compete using your “equalizer” rule. But it isn’t the same for all ages and rankings and it should be..... example.... 40 Majors vs 40s AAA, It’s clearly easier to make up a 5 run spot when you play “Down” to AAA and get 6 HRs to do it. Vs say 50 Major playing 50AAA and only getting 3 HRs. Let’s say the 40 Major teams hit 6 Solo HRs, they now eliminated the 5 run spot and take a 1 run lead..... 50 Major team, which by your rules is only allowed 3 HRs, does the same thing, hits 6 solo HRs ,they only get 3 runs, still chasing 2 runs, and now have 3 outs... in essence they lose an inning to try to make up 5 runs. Plus to top it off, when a game doesn’t make all 7 innings, the team still gets ALL 5 of their spotted runs, even though it’s not a complete game. There should not be such a disparity in the so called equalizer rule.... With different HR totals allowed for same rated teams, but different age brackets, that’s exactly what you have. |
| Oct. 22, 2019 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | I won't speak to all of the ways that I have seen associations attempt to make home runs equal over the years. There are many, some even with some merits. What I will say is that one up is something that has always been a controversy. When it was introduced in the association that I worked most last century, the biggest controversy was that it gave the home team an unfair advantage. Really? They have always batted second. So then they go into only visiting teams can go one up. Oh, advantage to the visitors? Pick visitors on the flip? So I am not a fan. My biggest issue as an umpire or player is that it gives the umpire one more administrative task to do to accurately track it. Umpires are typically not good at administrative tasks. I track all of mine in the one up games that I work, but quite frankly I do have to accurately make good notes and know where each team is in their home run status. The last thing that any of us want is to have a game decided on a home run with the umpire not having an accurate home run count. As a scorekeeper, I always tracked it for both teams as well, but scorekeepers are often not tracking that if at all and rely on the umpires. I am a big advocate of taking extra work that could decide a game out of the umpire's hands. I know that this sounds so easy to track, but even though I am pretty good at it, I know that many others are not. Play to your homerun limits. They are the same for each team which makes them fair. Dave's point on home run limits leveling the playing field is a good one especially for the good records that the office keeps of each game and team. Cynical? Perhaps. Dave will tell you that I think that umpires get into enough trouble on their own without adding one more reason for them to get into a situation. As long as something is the same for each team, it is fair. Fairness is very important to me in softball. |
| Oct. 22, 2019 BallPlayer35 Men's 60 18 posts | Here is my opinion: All Maj+ - 10hrs & DHH - Another reason to play Maj+ All Maj - 8hrs All AAA - 6hrs All AA - 3hrs |
| Oct. 22, 2019 Uncle Mike Men's 60 122 posts | I would love to see : Major + - 10 Home Runs Major - 3 Home Runs AAA - 1 Home Run AA - 0 Home Runs We play 60 Major and a few of the teams at the Worlds were hitting excess home runs every game. If you hit that many, you should be playing Major + |
| Oct. 22, 2019 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BallPlayer35, just for clarification for anyone reading your post, DHH is a Designated Homerun Hitter. I think that only one association uses that; so I am not sure if most seniors would be familiar with it. The way it works is that each team designates someone that can hit homeruns that are not counted against the team's home run total. If that DHH is walked, there is a "free" home run until they come up to bat again. Not a fan of it, but I do like it better than the inning ending home runs when over your total or progressive penalty home runs. I thought about all of the home run "flavors" that I have seen over my very long softball career. I won't list them here, but the most interesting one had to be all home runs were doubles (no limit) to allow all skill levels to be able play against each other. There is nothing cuter than a Major+ player standing on 2B saying, "Wow, I've never been here before". |
| Oct. 22, 2019 TimMcElroy 942 posts | I whisper "What the firetruck" to myself at least 10 times a day. This is one of those moments. |
| Oct. 22, 2019 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | Tim ... These could, if they miraculously end up on the Rules Committee Agenda rival the "All-Time Best" suggestion from a few years ago that "..Courtesy runners should be limited to two per inning, unless there is beer involved, then the number would be three.." ... To paraphrase the Sports Guy, Bill Simmons, "Yep, these are our readers!!" ... Hilarious! |
| Oct. 22, 2019 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | These are perfect examples of why I like so many home runs only just like it is now. On the progressive penalty rule, I had a player ask why we didn't take runs away from the team that hit the home runs instead of adding runs to the team playing against them. I just said "...because we don't want players looking at the scoreboard asking is that a positive or negative 5". On home runs these all prove that the KISS rule should apply...please. |
| Oct. 22, 2019 garyheifner 649 posts | What is awesome about all the above is that our 3 hitter hit one out in Vegas. It was the 1st and only one my 75AAA team hit in 9 tournaments this year. We don't have to worry about HR rules! |
| Oct. 23, 2019 Wizard of Oz Men's 50 16 posts | Dave not sure what comment or comments seem to amuse you and your Buddy Tim. I personally don’t care how many HRs you decide you want to give to each rated team. My problem is you call it an equalizer rule but it’s different based on age! If your in your 40s you get more HRs to make up 5 runs than the older teams. Sounds like Senior Softball likes to discriminate based on age. The older teams should have the same opportunity to make up their 5 runs as the 40s teams. |
| Oct. 24, 2019 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | Wiz ... A lot of the commentary across many topics here is highly amusing, but that's just the nature of an anonymous, generally unregulated open forum like this one ... When crazy "stuff" gets anonymously tossed out as frequently as it does here, it's OK to chuckle! ... But to address the 40-Masters program, I can offer this factual background seriously ... • The 40-Masters program is not Senior Softball, which commences at age 50+ ... It is a transitional program to offer those players a participation option between "flat belly ball" and the official Seniors program ... We believe that if that option were not available, too many players would simply stop playing as they tire of the antics that happen in younger adult softball ... The 40-Masters, both Men and Women, is our fastest growing age range and, as such, represents the future of Senior Softball .. • The 40-Masters program equalizer rules do NOT, by design, include an 11th-Defensive-player option ... A very high percentage of those teams already play a 3-man outfield and a 5-man infield ... They still "have their legs" and outstanding arms (yes, I'm envious!) ... With the 11th defender not in the mix, we have structured slightly higher HR limits for teams giving an equalizer to achieve a more reasonable scenario of balance with their opponent ... It has nothing to do with your claim of age discrimination, and quite the contrary ... It matches the game rules with the player skill set in the 40-Masters program ... At the Senior level, there is complete consistency on HR limits by rating from age 50+ through 70+ ... • Home run rules, across all rating levels regardless of age, should NOT serve as a disincentive for teams to graciously step up and compete at the next higher level when it's appropriate (that's a whole different matter of great popularity here: How can we do whatever it takes to play down? ... yada yada yada) ... There is no AA rating in the Men's 40-Masters program, so the HR limits from AAA (6) to Major (8) to Major+ (10) are actually LESS of a spread than the corresponding limits for Senior ball, at 1-3-6-9 ... • Historically, the "one up progressive" HR structure has made it easier for teams to disguise the rating where they should be playing ... Absolute maximums and DBO's for excess HR's is the best option ... In fact, that's the HR structure for Team USA in the Border Battle series each year ... If it's good enough for the National Team, it's likely good enough for us ... Thanks for writing ... |
| Oct. 25, 2019 BEEBIC Men's 70 5 posts | I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND WHY SO MANY PEOPLE THINK THE 'ONE UP RULE' FOR HR's SHOULD KEEP A HOME TEAM FROM HITTING AN HR IN THE BOTTOM OF THE LAST INNING THERE ARE SEVERAL SCENARIOS INVOLVED IN THIS RULE WHY THE HOME TEAM SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO HIT AN HR. 1st THE VISITORS HAD 7 OPPORTUNITIES TO HIT AN HR - WHY SHOULD THE HOME TEAM NOT BE ALLOWED THE SAME 2nd IF THE TEAMS ARE TIED IN HRs THEN THE HOME TEAM CAN HIT AN HR, EVEN IF THERE ARE EXTRA INNINGS - REFERRING BACK TO SCENARIO ONE 3rd IF EITHER TEAM IS 'ONE UP' AFTER 6 INNINGS, THEN THE RULE SHOULD APPLY UNLESS THE VISITORS HIT A 'ONE UP' HR IN THE TOP OF THE 7th - THIS ALSO REFERS BACK TO 1st SCENARIO |
| Oct. 25, 2019 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BEBIC, my reason for thinking is because of the development of rules for the NSA association. The first year that the one up rule came up there were no exceptions to the rule. Both the visitors and home team could go one up in the last inning. Of course players complained all year that it gave the home team an unfair advantage. So they changed the rule the next year, and players complained that it gave the visitors an unfair advantage to which my thought is then pick visitors on the coin flip. I work a local league that it is also a controversy in the one up rule. Players do or don't like that the home team cannot go up in the last inning, and I had a very animated coach that did not understand that the last inning was what we played when time ran out, not the seventh. In my opinion only, the one up rule always sparks controversy. I also do not like the umpires having one more administrative task to take care of. I am not saying that all umpires can always track a home run limit accurately, but it becomes much worse if they have to do that and then also be aware if a team can hit one more or not. Umpires have enough issues without that. I like a home run limit. It is non-negotiable and is therefore fair to both teams. I always side on fairness. As others have pointed out, it better reflects what a team does from a performance standpoint. I have seen many, sometimes ridiculous, rules that try to accommodate home runs, but a home run limit works. |
| Oct. 26, 2019 DCPete 409 posts | Nancy; having to keeping track of the HR one-up rules is just another reason why you umpires are getting paid the big bucks . . . |
| Oct. 26, 2019 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | DCPete, I appreciate that, and I personally have no problem doing whatever the rules require. However there are some umpires that get into enough trouble on their own without adding anything else. I am a big believer in rules that do not add to umpires getting into further trouble. Administrative tasks fall into that category. I never want a team to have a bad experience because an umpire didn't keep good enough notes on whether a team can go one up or not. Yes, I have seen that happen especially on a blistering July day after an umpire has done several games. Have great games, kid. |
| Oct. 26, 2019 garyheifner 649 posts | I guess I can't understand the big issue here. If U get 3 Hrs a game, take them whenever U want in any inning. See, I have never been or played with a team who can hit them on demand. What if U save them for the bottom of the 7th and U have 3 or 4 singles hitters coming up before your bombers come up and the bombers never get up to bat. What a waste. Obviously, if a bomber comes up in the early innings with bases loaded, u use one. It would be easy on the ump He simply enters the runs scored in an inning on his scorecard and the # of HRs hit to get that score. |
| Oct. 27, 2019 ChiPrimeMarty Men's 60 104 posts | My $.02, followed by a suggestion: The AAA & Major teams I've played on have always had some legitimate home run hitters; some who can hit for average but never put one over the fence; and a couple guys who once in a great while get every last bit of the ball -- just enough to clear the fence. It's a big thrill when a guy with warning track power finally hits a homer. And a terrible shame when it's a dead ball out. I've seen it happen more than once. I hate to see a rare personal moment turn into a negative due to a rule with the good intention of fair competition. This is senior softball, and some guys have very few of those special moments left in the tank. I prefer the one-up dead ball walk rule, with the home team not getting 4 bases on their one-up in the last inning. To ensure fair competition all OTF home runs (including dead ball walks) should be recorded and tallied by SSUSA, and added to the evaluation criteria for moving a team up to the next level. This would serve the same purpose as the dead ball out rule and maybe do it better because dead ball outs are just outs, not captured for future evaluation. There's no perfect solution. Teams with more power hitters do not necessarily win more games and tournaments if their defense is sub par or team OBP is low. Also, teams that do get moved up often have marginal players who frequently ride the bench -- but their personal rating gets bumped up along with everyone else. Then they get zero playing time and can't find a team at a lower level due to their higher personal rating. Teams are very selective about the 3 allowed on their roster. It would be nice if there was an official scorekeeper at every game recording stats that are saved electronically into a database for individual player ranking. Of course, that would cost more money and it's way too 21st century! |
| Oct. 27, 2019 Uncle Mike Men's 60 122 posts | @ChiPrimeMarty I have actually seen a game where Windy City Softball- playing in a 55 AAA game at Shadow Rock, hit 28 balls over the fence in one game a few years ago. Give or take a few home runs. That year they used the dead ball walk rule. There was nothing fair about that game. I agree that teams with more power hitters don’t win more games or tournaments, but they can, and often score 3 runs on 2 singles and a home run. The really good ones can do this 5 or 6 times a game in the Major division. While other teams without power hitters, need to string together 5 or 6 hits to score 3 runs. That’s what happened to us in Las Vegas in September. We hit 10 home runs in 6 games. While our first opponent, Oklahoma Mayhem hit 8 home runs against us in 1 game. They crushed us that game, but it was because we didn’t play good defense. Not because of the home runs. But their guys started hitting down on the ball so they didn’t hit a home run after they hit their limit. They could of hit a few more, IMO if they continued to take full swings all game long. I’m not complaining that we aren’t a Major team, because I think that we are. We just didn’t play well that weekend. But I don’t really like giving some teams a bigger advantage just because they have a few more guys hit the ball a little farther more consistently. |
| Oct. 27, 2019 ChiPrimeMarty Men's 60 104 posts | Uncle Mike, Windy City has been M or M+ for as long as I can remember (though my memory is less than perfect). If SSUSA tallies dead ball walk homers, those teams might be more likely to move up -- which is one of the objectives. The other, of course, is making the games more fair and competitive before the the power team moves up. The current dead ball out rule perhaps accomplishes that better, but if good power hitters can alter their swings after the limit to beat you with singles and doubles (more damaging than walks) they are still over-matching their opponents while flying under the radar on their home run power. The bottom line for moving up is consistently winning games by 5+ runs and winning the big tournaments. I've been on teams that were powerful on offense but struggled to win tournaments due to sub par defense. If your team doesn't match up power-wise and has a bad weekend on defense, you didn't get beat by the rule no matter what it is. Shortly after I moved to our 55 team in 2012, SSUSA briefly dropped the dead ball out rule. I think they might have done that to identify teams with power hitters that had been sandbagging. The 50AAA team I had been on unleashed their power and was moved up. There are good arguments on both sides, and regardless of the current rule some will argue for the other one. Overall I appreciate the work and the due consideration SSUSA puts into crafting their rules. They provide access for player input, and they do make changes with popular support like the 1-1 pitch count (or 3-2 instead of 4-3). Shout-out to Dave Dowell for his clarity, logic, and fairness on these topics. I appreciate some of the good discussions in this forum and the opportunity for debate it provides. |
| Oct. 27, 2019 Uncle Mike Men's 60 122 posts | Sorry it was WC Thunder in 50 AAA in 2013 |
| Oct. 27, 2019 tall_thunder Men's 50 82 posts | WOW, haven't checked this site in a while. I see our Directors like to make fun of our suggestions. Tim, don't know you, but I'm going to, this suggestion was to help the higher levels when they have to play a lower level due to Team shortage. Please, keep your disrespectful comments to yourself. Nancy, I don't think it's too much to ask of the umps to write down home runs, I think they already do that. Dave, I lost my respect for you 2 years ago, then again re- inforced it just this past year. Let me refresh your memory. We're playing Winter World's, 2tears ago, it the Championship game, for TOC birth, it was the open inning, we were the home team, leading by 10+ runs. The visitors batted out of order, we came to you, as Director, about this. You told us, you guys have a big lead don't worry about it. REALLY, THAT'S WHAT A DIRECTOR DOES!!! You want us to follow rules, but you can ignore them. |
| Oct. 27, 2019 tall_thunder Men's 50 82 posts | Sorry, ran out of room. My suggestion was to possible help teams(guys) that had complained in the past about not getting their alotted amount of Home runs. My suggestion, if you would of read carefully, and with an open mind, does not favor either team. Per Dave's information about submitting my opinion, suggestion, through certain channels, I will do that. You past rules about an one, one count, not sure who voted, and not everyone was happy, so why not try voting on this suggestion. I guess we'll see. Thunder Out. |
| Oct. 28, 2019 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | tall_thunder, it sounds like you are not too happy. I have a lot of respect for softball, but I have a lot of experience that shows me that there is never a way to make everyone happy when it comes to home runs. One up has historically been problematic. Umpires should track home runs, but one up is a little different. I will not try to explain it again here. Just take my word for it or not. Please don't jump on Tim. I think that he was only reacting to my examples of some of the most ridiculous rules that I have seen to compensate for the home run issue over the years. No disrespect meant to you and am always glad to talk to anyone. If you feel strongly about it, do submit it. I don't always agree with all rules or rule changes but will always enforce them. |
| Oct. 28, 2019 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | tall_thunder ... Please feel free to submit any suggestions you might have for National Rules Committee consideration ... The process is, as you noted, pretty straight-forward ... Implementation of the "1-1" count followed membership preference polling on two occasions, basically five years apart ... The polling data ultimately led to the "1-1" for the 40-Masters, and then later to the 50's through 60's Men and the 50+ Senior Women ... Historically, HR limits and structure was an annual "free-for-all" at the Rules Committee sessions ... Once the current package was implemented, there hasn't been anything resembling a "mandate" for change ... There will always be the desire to hit as many as we'll allow and to raise the limits ... You're not to far from Las Vegas, so you should consider attending the Rules Committee ... Those who have taken the opportunity to do so have been a very valuable resource to the Committee and most have a vastly different perspective when they depart on the professionalism and careful consideration given to how we structure our game ... As for the "batting out of order" matter you mention, I am drawing a total blank on the incident you describe ... Your player history indicates that two years ago you played with 4 The Fallen (AZ) in the 50-Major division of the 2017 Winter World Championships at Cesar Chavez Park ... I honestly don't remember being at Cesar Chavez at all on Championship Sunday ... The "usual" Director there is very self-sufficient and, truth be told, would likely prefer that other tourney personnel stay away and don't distract him! ... If I was there, it's a surprise to me, but maybe I was! ... I also can't envision a circumstance where I would advise ignoring any rule, but I believe you that someone probably did ... I would hope that I would remember something like that which would be so outside of my normal insistence on rules compliance! ... Even if it wasn't me, I take ultimate responsibility for that as the Tournament Director and apologize for the occurrence ... |
| Oct. 28, 2019 tall_thunder Men's 50 82 posts | Trying to describe an incident on here is tough. It was November 2017, I was with Az Old School 55 Majors, can't recall the field. The Team we played in the Championship game had guys leave during the open inning of the game. Our score keeper noticed that the batters numbers didn't match the guy that was getting ready to hit. After a couple of pitches, we brought it to the attention of the umpire. Why he couldn't resolve it, is beyond me. He went and got you. After our coach talked to you, he came back and told us that you were going to let them continue, BECAUSE, we had a big lead. That would of been the final out. Sure, outcome didn't change, but I didn't expect that answer from you. Nancy, Tim's response was way before anything you said, why defend his rudeness. I appreciate most the Directors and Umpires, I make an effort to meet everyone and get to know them. |
| Oct. 28, 2019 tall_thunder Men's 50 82 posts | Dang, too long again. Anyways. I've played ball since I was 12, and to still be playing at this age, and meeting all these guys from different teams and states I'd great. I don't bring arrogance or disrespect to the field and don't want it in return. I don't think hitting home runs makes you a MAJOR+ player, it just an ability. I know a lot of guys who hit home runs just catch or EH. I Don't play to be labeled, I enjoy the game and the guys I'm playing with. Again, my suggestion was to just help, not to bashed. I've been on rules committees, you need an open mind. Not one person has all the answers. This will be my last input on this site, I thought this was a friendly forum of discussion. Thunder Out |
| Oct. 28, 2019 TimMcElroy 942 posts | tall_thunder: 2 things- 1) This thread began with your proposed HR rule change. I gave my opinion which was based on 12+ years experience as an umpire, UIC and Director. If you felt that my response was rude, I apologize. 2) I was the Director at Papago Park for the 2017 Winter Worlds and actually recall this incident. A question about batting out of order was raised and the site UIC initially gave a ruling that your team disagreed with. KC then came and got me. We walked through the situation with the managers and explained the rule- 7.1 D1 (Batting Order) If the error is discovered while the incorrect batter is at bat, the correct batter may take his place and assume any balls and strikes. 7.1 D2 explains that AZ Old School would have gotten the "BoO" out that it was looking for IF you'd waited until the incorrect player finished the at bat. Note: The player was ejected under the illegal substitute rule for failing to check-in with the umpire- but again, the timing of your protest resulted in no out being declared. Your team wanted an out on the play. I explained a few times that, per the rules, no out was warranted. Your team continued to insist that "somebody should be out" instead of accepting the ruling and playing on. This matter did drag on for a while and I recall walking back to the Director table to get the rulebook so that I could show it to the manager. I probably did say something along the lines of stop worrying about this out and go get the next one with your gloves. I never ask about the score or inning when called to the fence because neither has anything do with application of playing rules (unless the flip-flop is involved). I can say with 100% certainty that I never made a comment about the score. |
| Oct. 28, 2019 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | So now an unannounced substitute is an illegal substitute even if their being in the game is legal? Maybe the umpire was too lazy to write it down? Please continue |
| Oct. 28, 2019 TimMcElroy 942 posts | Sir, Refer to Section 4.7 of the SSUSA rulebook for clarification on substitution rules. As to your second question, you were not present and have no knowledge of what the umpire heard, said, wrote or didn't write. |
| Oct. 30, 2019 SKings24 60 posts | Always hear lets not make it more difficult for our umpires, they don't play the game they enforce the rules as written. So if the Equalizer Rule is approved it shouldn't make their job any harder than what it is already. Some at this time are still confused by any rule that is easy to understand. This is what scorekeepers are for to validate what has been happening. If a scorekeeper can't help then the umpires decision is final. For me I don't understand why a 50 Major Team gets less Homeruns than a 40 Major team it should be equal or the 50's should get one more than them but to get lees seems like they are looking down on the older divisions. We all enjoy playing the game and it should be fair across the board. Just my 2 cents worth. |
| Oct. 30, 2019 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | SKings24, I respectfully disagree with part of your statements. Hopefully most umpires carry something to write with and on and can mark a finite number, 2, 3, 4, whatever the set number of home runs is. Having to do that but also keep track of who can go one up and when is not as easy as it sounds to someone who just hits them (or not). You add to that the players, coaches, and fans asking those same questions about it, and you can run into problems with an umpire. I always have something to write with and something to write on. I am much more concerned about tracking things than most umpires that I have met. I was a scorekeeper for my husband for over 20 years and cannot stand anything but knowing what is going on all of the time. I have tracked finite numbers of home runs, one up home runs, progressive penalty home runs, designated home run hitters, and others both as an umpire and a scorekeeper. So I hopefully am never the umpire to worry about on those; I do what is needed by the rules that I am enforcing. Trust me; you really don't want to add administrative tasks to an umpire. I do whole heartedly agree with you on scorekeepers. It will never happen, but I think that every team should have one, and they should keep data for both teams. That way hopefully if there is an issue, books can be compared. Paid scorekeepers don't often track all of the data needed. Here they are often in score towers and cannot have an actual conversation with the umpire. I also agree in fairness. I want to be known for being fair and being approachable when I umpire. I also hustle and strive to know rules and rule differences. Hopefully some day we can have a nice conversation about our philosophies. |
| Nov. 2, 2019 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Tim, I am perfectly aware of the rule and it makes no sense if the player is in the game legally. If a scorekeeper can't look at a lineup card and determine a BOOO and especially how to appeal such, then they don't need to be awarded with what is essentially a freebie for an illegal substitution. Another thing to remember is the player was probably only getting a last at bat, but also spent several dollars to attend this tournament. You're right about one thing, I wasn't there to witness the debacle. Y'all need to rethink some of your rules and what they actually accomplish. |
