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Discussion: Major Plus Teams in Winter Worlds, Session 1

Posted Discussion
Nov. 5, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
Major Plus Teams in Winter Worlds, Session 1
Dave: In the Winter Nationals, the 3 Major Plus teams in 65 and 70 were place in there own Draw for Bracket play.
Any reason why the same format wasn't done for the Winter Worlds ??????
Thanks,
Nov. 6, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
Yes ... The two 65-Major+ teams in the Winter World's wanted to play three on Tuesday and a Best 2 of 3 on Wednesday and be outta there ... The 70-Major+ team has an identical Rating Index as the 65-Major, so "equalizer-free" games are a plus and they benefit by the opportunity to play a more varied group of opponents ... The overall bracket/group size is significantly larger in Phoenix and the Major+ mix in Florida is 65's (1) and 70's (2) ... It's the converse in Phoenix ...
Nov. 6, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
Dave: Thanks for getting back. I'm not sure if its a good idea to put a 70 Major Plus team in with the 65 Majors. They will be playing with 11 defensive players against 10 for the 65 Majors which are familiar with batting against 10.
Does any other 65 major team have an interest in this issue ????
Nov. 6, 2019
mck71
188 posts
bbb - I don't have a dog in this hunt but there some advantages of M+ v M+ that you might not be thinking of such as the additional 3HR and 2 runs per inning. 65M+ vs 65M would have to give 5 runs, only hit 6 not 9 and can only score 5 not 7. Maybe they would prefer playing by their rules even if they play vs 11 defensive fielders? Just my 2 cents...
Nov. 6, 2019
bbullet
36 posts
mck71 - They will not be giving 5 runs. They also have the ability to add 4 out of region players unlike any of the 65 Major Teams. Which is huge!

This reminds me of the Southwest Championships when Timberworks was dropped in the 65 Major bracket. If you go back and read those posts it makes for some interesting comments - from even Dave.

Hopefully this will be "equalizer free". The Omen 70 Major Plus team just won the Winter Worlds and are adding several of the Timberworks players who just won their 3rd consecutive Triple Crown. They SHOULD BE playing in the Major Plus division - just like the Winter Nationals in Florida. With all the National, World titles - All-Americans - Hall of Famers if they choose to play down they should play without the extra fielder.

If a 65 team with an age specific no count - chooses to play in an all 60 division they have to play with the one and one count.
Nov. 6, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
▲ ▲ Not agreeing or disagreeing with what you said at all, but it could appear that the above comments immediately after my name were from me ... I don't believe they are! ... Thanks!
Nov. 6, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
bbullet is 100% correct in what he is saying and if Omen wants to play 65 Major, they should play by 65 Major rules with 10 defensive players. If they want to play with 11, they should play in the 70 Major division. The 65 Majors is not accustom to playing with 11 defensive players.
Nov. 7, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
65 MAJOR TEAMS, NO COMMENTS ?????? Be careful what you wish for !!
Nov. 7, 2019
bbullet
36 posts
As I look at this schedule - one of the curious things is Timberworks is not even playing Omen in pool play? Hmmm seems like those 2 Major Plus teams would be a good competitive game!
Nov. 7, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
One of my fundamental schedule build philosophies is an attempt, when the mix of teams permits, to play games out-of-state for as many teams as possible, regardless of rating or age ... Arizona Ancient is playing teams from CA, ID and CA ... Timberworks is playing teams from TX, AZ and CO ... A Timberworks vs. Omen match-up would be counter to that philosophy ... I don't know (or want to know) what team you play with, but if you are an Arizona team, you are NOT playing another Arizona team in pool play ... As a practical matter, the scheduling system does that for me so there is no bias by me for who plays who ... Carry on! ...

Nov. 7, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
SSUSA got the Brackets correct for the 3 Major Plus teams in the Winter Nationals. For some reason, they decided not to be consistent for the Winter Worlds. Why, why, why ?????
Dave, hope things are getting better on the home front !!!!!
Nov. 7, 2019
Dbax
Men's 60
1819 posts
I agree with Bbullet. A matchup of two World Champions would be really cool!
Nov. 7, 2019
breeze53
Men's 65
51 posts
SSUSA has something against the 65 Major division. They screw over the Major group in the Southwest last year by letting Timberworks in 65M bracket play. And, wow, they won the tournament. Now letting a 70 Major Plus team in the 65M bracket play. Even tho they have the same team index as 65 Major. They are allowed 11 defensive players to 10. I'm trying to understand how that is fair.
These teams recruit all the best players west of the Mississippi, to the point that no other teams want to play in the major plus division. So, with no one to play, SSUSA allows the few or 2 teams to screw over the 65 Major teams. It makes me wonder if there is some politics going on in Sacramento.
SSUSA leave the 65 Major division alone.
Nov. 8, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
Dave: I personally know you and many in the SSUSA Organization and have a high regard for everyone I come in contact with and your Organizational goals on fairness on the playing field.
I'm trying to understand why SSUSA allows themselves to be criticized when you allow Omen to play in the 65 Major division with 11 defensive players on the playing field. Not only are they a superior team and one of the best in the country, where is the fairness in that ?????
Don't say they are of equal level because that insults everyone intelligence. I know your smart and been around the block a few times. If Omen has any integrity and wants to play 65 Major, they should play by 65 Major rules including 10 defensive players.
They are the one who requested to play 65 Major, They should at least be held accountable to play on a level playing field and the only one who can enforce it is SSUSA.
Do the right thing and allow your Organization not to be criticized. I for one would like to see how Omen performs on a level playing field !!!!!
Nov. 8, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
bbb ... I respect and appreciate your commentary, but there is almost always a problem when the topic is one particular team and commentators state factual inaccuracies about the circumstances ... That's true in this instance ... I would be happy for you to call the office and I will spend as much time as is reasonable to discuss it with ... That being said, Omen 70 did NOT request to play 65-Major in this tournament, but rather to play 70-Major and give an equalizer because they want to have the 11-man defensive opponents experience before the World Masters rolls around this coming season ... The newest member of the 70-Major+ group, NorCal STIXX (winner of the WMC 70-Major in Las Vegas) is not participating in Phoenix ... I won't be there for Session #1, but a higher-up-the-food-chain authority than me, Terry Hennessy, will be ... He and I agree on this one ... Please approach him if you wish his insights ... Thanks and good luck! ...

Nov. 8, 2019
The Wizard
5 posts
Dave, in your first comment on this subject you refer to "equalizer-free" games. 11 against 10 would not be equal. I can only assume that the games in 65 Major will be truly "equalizer-free" and EVERYONE will play with 10 defensive players. I can't imagine doing it any differently.
Nov. 8, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
The Wiz ... NOPE ... The only "equalizers" defined in the rules (1.21) are

5-Runs (or 7-Runs in a two rating index difference) or
An "extra" defender over and above the team's native defensive alignment

The games in the 65/70-Platinum division are "equalizer-free" because of the absence of either of those two items ... You may wish to debate the point of the numbers being different, but referencing that circumstance as being the presence of an "equalizer" is incorrect ...

Nov. 8, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
UPDATE FROM 65/70-PLATINUM WINTER NATIONALS
Team FL/Hollis Appraisals (65-M+) played Venon 70 (M+) three times this week, giving the 5-Run equalizer and Venom playing 11-defensive-players (native alignment) in all games ... Team FL/Hollis swept all three games (15-7), (27-20) and (26-22) ... Not that it proves anything except that Venom maybe was seriously over-matched, but the 65's handled the extra defender and won by gross margins, excluding the 5-run spot, by 13, 12 and 9 runs (Avg. differential of +11.33 RPG) ... We'll look at the Omen 70 data with the same critical eye in a week or so ...

Nov. 8, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
Dave: If Omen didn't make the request, then why were they put in the 65 Major Division??? You have equalizer rules in place for the 70 division and if you and SSUSA believe they are fair, why are you(SSUSA) going against your own policy( If there are 70 teams to play, they play in there own division).
Messing with the 65 major division by having a team play with 11 defensive players should only be done as a last resort.
The Powers at be should rethink this and come up with an acceptable solution.
To me its a no brainer, you have your equalizer rules in the 70 division and 70 Major teams to play.
Trust your policy and make the change !!!!!


Nov. 8, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
bbb ... Please pay closer attention ... I answered your first question in the very first full sentence of my initial response in this thread ...

Yes ... The two 65-Major+ teams in the Winter World's wanted to play three on Tuesday and a Best 2 of 3 on Wednesday and be outta there ...

The (lone) 70+ team did not share that scheduling compression appetite ... We honored the desires of ALL three teams ...

As to your assertion that we are not "following our policy" ... We did ... On EVERY tournament page of this website, in the Tournament Format section, is the following statement ...

Note: SSWC reserves the right to combine divisions of three or fewer teams within one age level and/or skill level..

That is precisely what we did ... You (obviously) disagree with our decision, which you may certainly do at any time, but you will be corrected when you erroneously state that we violated policy in making that decision ... We also reserve the right at any time to make decisions, based on decades of experience, that we believe will yield the best odds of fair competition ... SSUSA placed them in the equivalent rating index group (65-Major) rather than in a lesser index (70-M) group where they desired, and we declined, to allow them to be ... This is an example of such a tournament structure call ...

The balance of your comment is opinion based, so we have no response ... If you believe policy needs to change, the annual National Rules Committee sessions in Las Vegas early next month at our convention is the appropriate forum ... You may appear in person (no charge) or you may submit identifiable written correspondence to SSUSA by email or conventional mail ahead of then for potential inclusion in the official Agenda by the Chairwoman of the Committee ... In the interim, the published schedule for the 65/70-Platinum division at the 2019 Winter World's will NOT be changing ... Thanks and good luck next week ...

Nov. 8, 2019
800
38 posts
Dave,

I just want to clarify something that has been stated several times. I am the manager of AZ Ancient and I was never contacted about playing a two day tourney. Since there are only 2 major+ teams I am in agreement with playing only two days. However I was never contacted about this decision.

Walt Kado
Nov. 8, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
WOW, the 2 Major Plus teams wanted to have there own little Tournament(not in your own words) and the 70 major Plus team did not share that scheduling appetite.
You talk about favoritism, this takes the cake.
Was there any thought about passing it by the nine 65 Major teams ????
This will be my last comment on this subject and also good luck at the Managers meeting.
Nov. 8, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
Thanks Walt ... It was represented to us that both 65+ teams desired the two day format if there wasn't going to be a third 65-M+ team in the mix ... Accepting that representation without specific direct confirmation with both teams was my/our procedural mistake ... It was without consequence in the final format structure, but that does not excuse the procedural error ... The 70+ team made the request to play 70-Major in three emails, the most recent was on 10/31/19, and never expressed an interest in playing with the 65-Major+ ...

Pursuant to the three-teams-or-less policy mentioned, we pulled the higher rated pair out for a Best 2 of 3 and placed the lesser rating index team, because there is an acceptable size (and nine meets that threshold) equivalent rating index group (65-Major) available ... The placement decision was solely mine ... It's the correct call, but the process sure could have been cleaner rather than being accidentally achieved ... For that, I apologize ...

bbb ... I won't be at the Manager Meeting until the Thursday night edition ... Terry Hennessy will be your target ...

Nov. 8, 2019
NYGNYY
118 posts
This is going to be fun and a great way to kick off 2020. I am looking forward to the challenge.
Just wondering if that the team mentioned does win. And I said IF. There wii be no TOC opportunity for the 9 65M teams from this tournament. Although 1 team will receive hats.





Nov. 8, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
NYGNYY ... That's funny stuff! ... If the 70-Major+ wins, and apparently they are as big a favorite as the Houston Astros in the World Series, then the top 65-M does earn the 2021 T.O.C. bid in 65-Major ... Since the R/I numbers are identical, there is only one first place awards set ... Good luck and have some fun! ... Although I don't know what could be more fun that watching all this angst over a game that is basically designed around athletics for 12-year-old girls ... Oh well!
Nov. 11, 2019
Marc
Men's 70
9 posts
Well it's nice to see and hear the softball players finally try and hold SSUSA accountable for their poor decisions they make in order to pacify certain northern California players. To allow a 65 major team, with many players who would have major+ ratings at 65 level, to play with 11 defensive players is absurd, and yet SSUSA chooses not to see it or simply bows down to other pressures. All other 65 teams except one has to follow policy except one. How in the world is that fair??? The final word from Dave Dowell is that nothing is going to change in that 65 division so take it and get over it,nice response.
Nov. 11, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
Good to hear from you again, Marc ... Please bring it up at the Manager Meeting tonight ... SSUSA C.E.O. Terry Hennessy will be running the meeting ... I really wish I could be there to hear that discussion and his response, but unfortunately I'm not in town until later in the week ...
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