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Discussion: WINTER WORLD'S • 65/70-Platinum Update

Posted Discussion
Nov. 14, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
WINTER WORLD'S • 65/70-Platinum Update
The Men's 65/70-Platinum Division at Desert West is in the Championship Game with #3 Seed Arizona Scorpions (unbeaten) vs. #1 Seed Scrap Iron High Octane (needing to win twice) ... For those who may be curious, like baseballbill and Marc, the Omen 70's played seven games and compiled a 4-3 record for the week before being eliminated ... One game over .500 is a pretty good 20-20 hindsight indicator that we placed them in the appropriate bracket mix for this event ... To borrow from the Farmer's Insurance ad ... "..We know a thing or two because we’ve seen a thing or two.." ... Thanks to all of the teams playing this week in Phoenix! ...

Nov. 14, 2019
Dbax
Men's 60
1819 posts
65 Platinum Results
1. Arizona Scorpions
2. Scrap Iron High Octane
3. Omen 70
Nov. 14, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
Dave: The Scorpions were fortunate to beat them twice, 1st game 8-7 with the wind blowing in and the 2nd 18-15 with Omen hitting 5 home runs and the Scorpions hitting none. also Scrap Iron won by 1 run.
Before you pat yourself on the back, talk to the other 4 teams who had to play them and lost by a large Margin and getting knocked into the losing Bracket or get knocked out of the tournament.
Nov. 14, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
bbb ... That's why we play the games ... After seeding, margins mean nothing ... Did you win and advance or not? ... That was the end result for everyone (9 of 10 teams) except Arizona Scorpions ... And that's what's great about hindsight ... it's ALWAYS 20-20 ... The bracket was fair, but only one team wins, and it wasn't the team of the older guys, either ... We did the right thing, you just disagree, and that's OK ...

Nov. 14, 2019
bigmac
3 posts
Dave, no disrespect but I have to agree with baseballbill, having a new 65team and come to play Winter Worlds we drew Timberworks a 65Major+ in seeding, we end up giving up 26 runs to Timberworks which in turn hurt us with runs allowed, for bonus we get Omen 70s in our 2nd bracket game, get knocked into the losers bracket after they put 20 on us in the open and hit their 6 homers while having 11 fielders. If they're going to play down I can't and they are a Major+ how do they then get 11 fielders...BTW outstanding job by the umpires and we had great weather...
Nov. 14, 2019
Cowboys22
3 posts
Big Mac... I guess I would have to ask what was the score of the game before the open inning?? Secondly, did they score these 20 runs with the 11 defender or did these old 70 year olds actually hit the ball. Huge difference between a 65 yr. old ball player and a 70 yr. old ball player. In 5 years or so you will find that out.
Nov. 15, 2019
breeze53
Men's 65
51 posts
Dave, gloating is not becoming of you. I did not hear you gloating last year, when you allowed Timberworks destroy the 65 Major division in the Southwests Championships. You got away with it, this time.
And no matter what the discussion, there is always one brown nose, that gets involved with the threat.
Nov. 15, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
Breeze53 ... Not sure that's a valid comparison ... I scheduled Timberworks down in rating to 65-Major at the Southwest and it was a disaster, one I own ... Scheduling Omen 70 into an equivalent rating index group was relatively risk free and turned out to be the right decision ... No gloating involved, so I'll let your silly insult slide ...
Nov. 15, 2019
bigmac
3 posts
Cowboys22...absolutely no disrespect to Omen or any 70yr olds, I hope I can play in 5 years. They flat out hit the ball, scoring 20 in the open, just not convinced and also doing my whining that if they are playing down therefor are limited to 6 home runs (which they used all) why wouldn't the same apply to defense...have them play with 10..., Omen is a great team, with great guys...and Congratulations to Scorpions!
Nov. 15, 2019
db14
100 posts
Curious that the Winter World's 65's age bracket (which included two of the teams being highly discussed) has mysteriously disappeared fro the tournament page. All other age brackets are STILL available for review. Hmmm
Nov. 15, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
Dave: Why do you have a hard time understanding that 65 teams are NOT accustom to playing against 11 defensive players. Omen 70 is a superior team and one of the best in the country. They also carry themselves as a class act. Knowing Omen, I think they would have had no problem accepting the challenge of playing with 10 defensive players knowing that the 65's play it that way.
It appears that the only one who had a problem with that was SSUSA.
The 65's teams who paid good Money for entry fees and out of town expenses did not envision playing against 11 defensive players.
They paid to compete on a level playing field (10 DEFENSIVE PLAYERS).
I am also going to repeat myself by saying in the Winter Nationals in the 65/70 Platinum Division, you grouped the 3 Major Plus teams together but for some unknown reason you didn't follow suit in the Winter Worlds.
Nov. 15, 2019
k man
Men's 65
277 posts
Just a thought but since 65 and up play midweek in some/most SSUSA tournaments maybe its time to allow the 65's to field 11. Your thoughts?
Nov. 15, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
Kman: Your comment certainly has merit !!!!!
Nov. 15, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
bbb ... At the risk of contributing further to this cyclical redundancy, here's my hopefully final cut at this ...

• I have NO quarrel with your statement that 65+ teams may be unaccustomed to playing against an 11-man defensive alignment ... Two teams (Arizona Scorpions and Scrap Iron Heavy Metal) were able to adapt to that circumstance quite well, going 3-0 against the 70+ team ...
• You appear to be proposing a Playing Rules change to prohibit any 70+ team playing in a 65+ competitive division the utilization of their "native defensive" alignment of 11-defensive players (See Rulebook §4.2(2)A. on page 22) ... Rules changes are made only at the annual convention during the National Rules Committee hearings ... This year's sessions occur in a couple of weeks in Las Vegas, and we accept identifiable written requests for changes and encourage personal appearance at the open sessions ... We specifically exclude Message Board commentary for potential inclusion on the Official Agenda ...
• We have no opinion whether or not, as you state, Omen would have had no problem playing 10-defensive ... They may do that if they choose ... We do not prevent them playing one short, but conversely, we will not compel it under the current Playing Rules ...
• Your question regarding the different grouping approach at the Winter National's and the Winter World's has been previously addressed, but here it is again ... The respective 3-team groups were a different mix ... Florida was ONE 65-Major+ and TWO 70-Major+ ... Phoenix was the converse, with TWO 65-Major+ and ONE 70-Major+ ... When presented with a 2:1 or 1:2 mix, we segregate the pair of identical rated teams into their own Best 2 of 3 Championship Series unless that results in a higher rating-index team being placed in a lesser index-rating group ... As breeze53 (fairly and accurately) noted, when I/we did that with Timberworks at the Southwest Championships, it was a debacle that should not be repeated ... In Florida, splitting out the two 70+ teams would have forced the 65-Major+ Team Florida/Hollis into the 65-Major ... In Phoenix, splitting out the two 65-Major+ left one identically index-rated 70+ team to join the 65-Major, which is as it should be ... It would have been wrong "..to follow suit in the Winter World's.."

Nov. 15, 2019
Cowboys22
3 posts
Big Mac.. thanks for the comments. Well taken,!! You sound like a class act. I was watching some games and heard a lot of discussion at the fields. It seems like a catch 22!! But there is always some kind of solution. I don’t think it would be very competitive for Omen to play the 70 majors. If you think this is a discussion it wouldn’t match the 70 major discussions. baseballbill has some points. What I would like to ask since the scorpions beat Omen 7twice by 4 runs, do you think the scorpions would have liked having two very close games or would they have just liked to beat them by 10 runs or more. Doesn’t it get down to being a competitor and wanting to play very competitive games. It is like a 65 major team playing.a 60 major team. Why take the runs? Because you are older. The difference in the 18-15 game was not the 11 player. Both teams hit the ball hard. One team has a better outfield. It wasn’t that they had better players, they were younger and could go after the ball. It was very easy to see. There was only one team there on the last day coming out of the losers bracket that had less then a 10% chance of winning the tournament. That was Omen. There was NO way they could have played 5 games. They are 70!, I talked to some of the Omen players. At 4-3 they were happy with the 7 games they played. They didn’t care about the t- shirt. They wanted to play competitive softball.
Nov. 15, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
Dave: Now I understand why you did it differently. Your first answer in the prior post left me scratching my head with doubt.
About Omen playing with 10 defensive players, rumor was that they were willing to but SSUSA knocked it down.
Nov. 15, 2019
softball4b
Men's 65
1107 posts
This is a very entertaining thread. I can't even imagine the comments if the 70 year old team had beat the younger guys. Bottom-line - No matter what ingredients go into the stew not everyone is going to enjoy it. If you think SSUSA purposely tilts the scales to favor one team or another then you have the option of not competing either against that team or in that organization. I have played in SSUSA events since 2002 and found their process and procedures, reasonable and professional.

Mike Adair
Nov. 15, 2019
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1308 posts
k man, because 65 year olds from Indy asked a couple of years ago, the rule change was considered. The older guys here play in another association that has the 11 man defense at 65. Their request was because they felt that they had to field two different teams since they could field 11 at 65 in the one association but had to wait until 70 in SSUSA. It did not pass back then, but there is no reason that you could not officially submit a rule change and see what happens this time.
Nov. 15, 2019
k man
Men's 65
277 posts
Nancy, I only threw this out there for those who may have an issue with it in their games. It has not been with the SSUSA tournaments we have played in. Other tournaments we play in allow 11 fielders for 65+ and our local league which is 60+ also uses 11 fielders. This year I age up to 70 so should not be an issue, so I don't have a dog in the fight.

Nov. 15, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2701 posts
bbb ... Rumors around the ball park have a very low batting average on being accurate ... We have no opinion on whether or not Omen 70 proposed playing 10 defensive players, and if they did, what response was offered by the on site Tournament Director(s) ... It would have been inconsistent with the Rulebook for SSUSA to have either [1] required Omen to play 10 on defense or [2] prohibited them from doing so had they voluntarily offered that option ...
Nov. 15, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
Cowboys22: I appreciate your comments and if you watched Omen 70 team, I think you would agree that there not only a great hitting team, they are also a great Home Run hitting Team overpowering any 65 major team. We are in awe watching them hit. They were just unfortunate to lose one bracket game to early which forced them to win 5 games on Thursday. Again they out hit the Scorpions 5 home runs to zero in losing the one game they had to win.
In my opinion, if Omen did play with 10 defensive players, they still would have been the favorite to win the Tournament.
Nov. 16, 2019
Circus
3 posts
65's AAA final Sidewinders took 1st Bucky's Casino 2nd and Oshkosh Wis. 3rd
Nov. 16, 2019
StevenL.Imlay
Men's 60
160 posts
My name is Steven Imlay and I play for Omen 70’s. We just played in the Winter Worlds in the 65 Major division. We went 4-3 finished 3rd. Here are my thoughts on last week’s tournament.
First, I want to congratulate an excellent team the Scorpions. You all beat us twice and deserved both wins. You played well offensively, defensively, pitched well, clutch hits and a great group of players. Very proud you are representing Arizona in this very great division of Senior Softball. You will do well this year.
We did not play a bad team in the tournament and any of the teams we played could have gotten hot and beaten us. Parity is a great thing and you all are lucky to have that in your division. We played an outstanding R&R team which we had to play our best game of the tournament to beat these guys. Very impressive team that really hits the ball and plays great defense. You all will definitely win your share of tournaments this year. Great group of guys!! Scrap Iron is a team that does everything well and has lots of power and will be a force to deal with in the future tournaments. Old School and Animals played well and we were fortunate to get hot at the right times against these team. Old School will only get better as the year goes on and I understand the Animals may move up to 70’s - good luck you will do very well if you do.
My comment is on that you have a very competitive division and you all will get your opportunity to get hot and win a tournament. We are group of 70 and above players that are trying to compete against you all. I believe we did that and are very happy with the way we finished. Don’t get me wrong we like to win and we will play to win if we play in future 65 Major tournaments. We need the 11th player to compete with you all. If SSUSA decides to change the rule we will compete with the new rule as well. Big difference (as in all divisions as you move up) one day you all will understand.
I congratulate SSUSA for sticking with a rule that has been in place for at least 23 years. The results prove that it is a good and fair rule. Dave, I feel it’s been unfair to call you out on this process especially when the results prove you to be correct.
We do not go to tournaments to beat up on teams, no fun for either teams and you as a team don’t get better. We would prefer to go and finish 4-3 and play against very good competition. That is the bottom line in Senior Softball play against great guys and compete to win the tournament. Our goal is to improve and to see where we need to improve. I believe we did that this last weekend and hopefully we helped other teams to do the same.
I guarantee you, next time we play, we will do everything we can within the rules to beat you. However, if you beat us, we will congratulate you and figure out how we can get better. This is the Omen and Otis way.
Great tournament well ran with fantastic competition. Again, congratulations on all the team we played very competitive and class acts.
Look forward to playing you again or watching you as you go through this year to the Worlds which really is the most important tournament of the year!
You are with in your rights to disagree but these are my thoughts.
Nov. 16, 2019
baseballbill
120 posts
Steve: Thanks, you always been a class act!!! AS you know if you read my comments, I disagree with Omen playing with 11 players. You are just as good a hitting team as any 65 Major and you have more home run power hitters. It was a great tournament by all and the games were played within the rules.
Good luck and Omen is a class act and we are in awe watching you guys play.
Nov. 16, 2019
JamesLG
389 posts


Great post Mr Imlay and I believe every competitive ballplayer should think the same as you do.

Thank You:

James
Nov. 16, 2019
sbsoftball30
Men's 65
6 posts
Instead of all the whining, why not suck it up and play the best to be better individually and as a team? I play for Scrap Iron High Octane. We drew Timberworks in the seeding and faced Omen in the 3rd place game. Both teams are class acts with great guys who just want to compete at their best facing teams who have no problem lacing it up against them and doing the same. Scorpions kicked our butts in the first game but we adjusted and lost by one run with the sacks loaded in the seventh in the final. They played outstanding defense and were the BEST TEAM this week. Sorry to see all the grief Omen and Timberworks guys have to read in this blog.
Nov. 17, 2019
Cowboys22
3 posts
Well said by Steve and sbsoftball30!! One thing there is a difference between winning and competing . Omen had really two chances? They could have went to play in the 70 yr.old division and most likely would have won it. Instead they went to the 65 yr. old division to TRY and win. That is being competitive . There is nothing wrong with that!!!
Nov. 17, 2019
Doak
10 posts
I also play for the Omen 70 team after 4 years with Timberworks. As SLI stated congrats to the Scorpians, they deserved the victory. There were four really good teams in Phoenix; Gonzalez, Scrap Iron, R&R and the Scorpians, it was a blast to compete with them and anyone of those 4 could have won that tourney. If there wasn't a Timberworks I would suggest to Dave that all of them move to major+. There are teams that compete in the Major category that really don't have a choice to win a big tournament, with teams like these there. But since Timberworks isn't going anywhere, at least this year, the Arizona Ancients have to bear the responsibility to battle with them. Although I really feel these teams could compete with Timberworks but you have to step up and take on the challenge. I saw Gonzalez score over 30 against TW, it was an impressive effort and victory.. I really saw a significant tiering in the Majors, 5 strong teams and 5 that were not as strong but going for it. I look forward to playing these "kids" in future tournies, Remember take it easy on the old guys...…

Doak #37
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