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Discussion: Intentionally dropped ball

Posted Discussion
Jan. 22, 2020
retired2013
Men's 65
5 posts
Intentionally dropped ball
Rule 9.1 U. States--Dead ball: When a fair batted fly ball, including a line drive, that can be handled by any infielder with ordinary effort, is intentionally dropped, with less than two outs and with a runner or runners on base at the time. EXCEPTION: An "infield fly" is a live ball. Question: Is the runner out or safe?
Jan. 22, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
A batted ball, not infield fly, that is intentionally guided to the ground, batter is out. Any infield fly that is intentionally dropped or let to fall to the ground, batter is always out. Runners may advance at their own risk. They are not obligated to advance being that the batter is out and that removes the force.
Jan. 22, 2020
retired2013
Men's 65
5 posts
Look t 9.1 U. The rule is clear, but there's no consequence stated/
Jan. 22, 2020
B.J.
713 posts
retired.. below is the rule that states the consequence..

also the ball does not have to be intentionally guided to the ground by a fielder as stated above

8.3 • BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT
J. When an infielder intentionally drops, or lets drop, a fair fly ball, including a line drive, that can be caught with ordinary effort with first base only, or first base and any other base(s) occupied, with less than two outs. A trapped ball shall not be considered as having been intentionally dropped. EFFECT: The ball is dead, the batter-runner is out and each runner shall return to the
base occupied at the time of the pitch.
Jan. 22, 2020
LMR
5 posts
I apologize for my ignorance, but what am I missing? With a man on first only (or first and third) and a pop up in the infield can't you let it drop because there is no double play if the batter runs?
Jan. 22, 2020
LMR
5 posts
Isn't this why there is an infield fly rule?
Jan. 22, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
Infield fly requires at least runners on 1st and 2nd with less than two outs. I believe what you're wanting to know is if the fielder lets the ball hit the ground without touching or guiding the ball to the ground if the ball is live. Runner on 1st base is the only runner being forced.

If the fielder guides the ball to the ground, the ball is immediately dead, batter/runner is out and runners return to their TOP base..... unless they have advanced to the next base before the ball is ruled dead....this isn't likely to happen unless the runner forgets how many outs there are.

Hope this is what helps.
Jan. 22, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts

J. When an infielder intentionally drops, or (((LETS DROP))), a fair fly ball, including a line drive, that can be caught with ordinary effort with first base only, or first base and any other base(s) occupied.

A fielder (((can))) let the ball drop. They cannot (((GIUDE))) the ball to the ground.

SSUSA dropped the ball on this one.
Jan. 23, 2020
B.J.
713 posts
wayne.. please post from the rules where it says that a runner may stay at a base if they advanced on a intentionally dropped fly ball or line drive

you stated.. unless they have advanced to the next base before the ball is ruled dead...

below is the actual effect of the rule
EFFECT:
The ball is dead, the batter-runner is out and each runner shall return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch.


Jan. 23, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
So you take a runner who has legally obtained home or 2nd base and send them back? You place runners from when the ball goes dead. I can't help it if whoever writes the rules can't differentiate between a live ball and a dead ball and what constitutes TOP.

Another dropped ball by the SSUSA rules committee.
Jan. 23, 2020
B.J.
713 posts
Well then in Wayne’s world a longggg high fly ball that is over fair territory and just at the last second lands foul with a runner on 3rd and 2 outs ...
the umpire properly waited to call foul ball until the ball landed which then made it a dead ball...during that time and with 2 outs the runner takes off and safely crossed the scoring line while the ball was still in the air and fair and before foul ball was called... so using your rule set and because it was a live ball and fair when he scored the run would count
Jan. 23, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
Exactly what I didn't say. If you have to make stuff up to sound smart, you've failed miserably. This like the time you said coaches interference wasn't interference because the ball wasn't immediately dead.

The rule is there to protect the runners, not the defense. And we're not talking about a longggg fly ball to begin with.

Jan. 24, 2020
stick8
1784 posts
Retired2013, I’d have to see the play but if an infielder intentionally dropped an easily caught ball—batting it to the ground or having it hit his body I have a dead ball, batter is out and base runner(s) return to their base. We sometimes call that “making a travesty of the game”.
Consider this play, man on 1st, one out. Batter hits an infield pop up and walks back toward the dugout mad at himself. Infielder sees this and let’s the ball drop in front of him. Picks it up flips to second for one and second throws to first for an apparent double play.
Is this in fact a double play or is this “a travesty of the game”?
Jan. 24, 2020
DieselDan
Men's 70
408 posts
Now that I have a bag of popcorn, please continue.
Jan. 24, 2020
B.J.
713 posts
DD.. I'd hate to disappoint you and I hope you got double butter and salt..lol..

stick.. dead ball batter is out below is the rule

8.3 • BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT
J. When an infielder intentionally drops, or lets drop, a fair fly ball, including a line drive, that can be caught with ordinary effort with first base only, or first
base and any other base(s) occupied, with less than two outs. A trapped ball shall not be considered as having been intentionally dropped. EFFECT: The ball is dead, the batter-runner is out and each runner shall return to the
base occupied at the time of the pitch.
Jan. 24, 2020
stick8
1784 posts
BJ, that is the senior rule. It wasn’t the case in USSSA but I believe they may have changed that. Rule of thumb remains: always run it out, the infielder might miss it!!
Jan. 24, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
I hate to break it to you again, but you return runners from their position on the bases when the ball goes dead. The ball is live until it isn't. SSUSA rules committee needs to realize that. I'm not sending a runner back two bases.

As mentioned prior, the rule is to protect the runners, not award the defense for sloppy play.
Jan. 24, 2020
TimMcElroy
692 posts
Someone once said of pornography- I can't accurately define it but I know it when I see it.

I feel the same way about the intentional drop- There are many ways to do it (intentionally drop the ball). As an umpire, I know it when I see it.

Here is the reality. We aren't referring to a towering fly ball where a defender loses the ball in the sun or wind and drops it- or a fly ball that is hit so high that a runner could advance 70+ feet before the "drop" occurs. The normal scenario is a soft line drive that a SS or 2B knocks down with the back of his glove, picks up and initiates a double play. Remember that the runner from 1st was frozen on that soft liner. If played honestly, no double play would have been recorded.

The rule was put in place to protect the base runner and the integrity of the game. A seasoned umpire recognizes an intentional drop when he sees it. I've seen it and called it a handful of times and have NEVER gotten an argument from the defense. Generally speaking, the guilty defender says something along the lines of "Hey, you can't fault me for trying, blue."

IMO, this is a good rule.
Jan. 25, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
I understand that, Tim. That's why I used the term guided the ball to the ground. However, you return runners from their positions on the bases when the play is made dead just as you do the awarding of bases. Not TOP. Also just letting the ball drop to the ground without touching leaves the ball live.

Jan. 25, 2020
B.J.
713 posts
Tim..great answer.. PLEASE don't give up.. I think you're wearing him down ... and on his latest post he was only wrong twice..
Jan. 25, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
Ok Boomer
Jan. 25, 2020
galasater
Men's 55
2 posts
Wayne 37
So you have players on your team that run bases, with less than 2 out on a pop up in the infield? And you also have runners that can advance to the next base before a line drive to the infield can be caught or dropped? Impressive.
Jan. 27, 2020
grayhitter59
Men's 55
258 posts
Tim, I remember this same thing happening in a winter nationals in Naples, some years back. You and I had a great debate, right up to the moment you stated senior softball rules sir and I walked back to my position in right field.

I still tell that story today. LMAO
Jan. 27, 2020
TimMcElroy
692 posts
^^^ Thanks for the smile, Manny.
Jan. 27, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
Since when were towering fly balls exempt from the rule?
Jan. 28, 2020
B.J.
713 posts
hmmm... Tim, I think wayne is asking you.. have fun
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