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Discussion: You make the call

Posted Discussion
May 1, 2020
stick8
1777 posts
You make the call
Runners on second and third, one out. Batter gets a base hit. Runner at third scores. Runner at second is thrown out at home. On the throw home the batter takes second. Next batter comes up. Before the first pitch the pitcher appeals the batter didnít touch first base. Umpire calls him out.
Does the run count?
May 1, 2020
OZ40
529 posts
Stick, since the next batter has come up I believe this is a dead ball appeal, no run?
May 1, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
703 posts
Timing play. Run scores.
May 1, 2020
alan--23
2 posts
what if it was the same scenario but there were 2 outs Runner at third scores. Runner at second is thrown out at home. On the throw home the batter takes second. Next batter comes up. Before the first pitch the pitcher appeals the batter didnít touch first base. Umpire calls him out.
Does the run count?
May 1, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
703 posts
Two outs. Run doesn't score.

First scenario there was no force with one out.

Second scenario, B/R must legally obtain 1B with 2 outs. It is called an advantageous 4th out.
May 1, 2020
Larry P.
Men's 50
6 posts
why would they be appealing? 2 outs to start the play,third out made on runner from second at home. run scores prior to third out!
May 2, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
703 posts
I'm going to change my first answer. No run may score if the B/R makes the last out of an inning before reaching 1B. DUH!!!!
May 2, 2020
B.J.
697 posts
larry.. no run scores if a forced runner does not touch the the bag that they are FORCED to.. the batter is forced to touch 1st therefore in 2nd scenario even though the runner from 2nd was technically the 3rd out the run would not score on appeal from the defense

1.1 ē APPEAL PLAY

A. Types of appeal plays:

5. After the third out in order to nullify a run.


May 2, 2020
stick8
1777 posts
Let me preface this answer by saying this a state high school baseball rule, I donít think it applies the same way in softball, be it senior, one nation, usssa, nsa or USA. Forgive me for putting up a baseball rule, Iím just bored being on stay home until end of May.
The answer is it depends on which order of the outs the defense wants to take. According to the rule, as I was told, the defense gets their choice. If they choose to take the out at first as the second out of the inning and the out at home as the third out then the run counts. If they choose it the other way around the run doesnít count.
Kind of strange but Iím told itís in the book.
May 2, 2020
stick8
1777 posts
Larry P not very many teams would bother to appeal that play. But in this scenario you have the fourth out situation. If they appeal and the ump calls an out thenrun doesnít count.
Could be the difference in a close game.
May 3, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
703 posts
Stick,

Softball rulebooks are mostly vague with very little to no interpretation. I took this from the MLB set of rules.

2019 MLB Rule 5.08 Comment:
APPROVED RULING: No run shall score during a play in which the third out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base. Example: One out, Jones on second, Smith on first. The batter, Brown, hits safely. Jones scores. Smith is out on the throw to the plate. Two outs. But Brown missed first base. The ball is thrown to first, an appeal is made, and Brown is out. Three outs. Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batter-runner before he touched first base, Jonesí run does not count.

Doubtful you would be wrong using this. What your OP is the same as 6-4-3 DP with a proper appeal. My first post, I was probably thinking the runner missed 2B.

Same scenario with two outs, the defense can appeal for what is called an advantageous 4th out thus disallowing the run to score.
May 4, 2020
curty
Men's 60
178 posts
run scored before 3rd out (appeal)- counts. Again, any time run scores before 3rd out, it counts, unless b/r is put out before acquiring 1st base . Once runner has passed the base, he is assumed to have touched it and it then becomes an appeal play. This makes it a timing call.
May 4, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2748 posts
curty ... Maybe "picking at nits" a bit here, but the run does NOT score if the final out of the inning is a force out ... Doesn't have to necessarily be a force at 1st base ...
May 4, 2020
stick8
1777 posts
Curty, irunners on 2nd and 3rd with two outs. Batter hits a triple. 2 runs score. Pitcher appeals batter missed 2nd base. Umpire calls him out for the third out. The runs count because the batter wasnít forced to go second (or third)
If the batter was called out for missing first then the runs wouldnít count.
May 4, 2020
stick8
1777 posts
Wayne I suspect youíre correct. All rules have an intent behind them but from time to time have to be reworded, revisited, amended or possibly taken out. An example that comes to mind is the dead ball appeal play. For years too many pitchers would screw up the actual mechanic of the appeal until finally someone had enough sense in their head to change the rule to simply ask the umpire.
May 5, 2020
curty
Men's 60
178 posts
i stand corrected DD, and i knew that! Stick, when the out is recorded after the runs score except as above, they count- doesn't matter which base is appealed. If you defense is appealing, it actually becomes a "new" play.
May 5, 2020
stick8
1777 posts
Curty youíre correct unless itís a force play. And that force could be at any base.
May 6, 2020
Larry P.
Men's 50
6 posts
All I was saying was that in the above "2nd" scenario the next batter would have been the batter for the team that was playing defense for the the 3rd out at home. So why would the pitcher appeal a play that would loose him a run.
May 7, 2020
B.J.
697 posts
i think alan meant the team that was playing defense at that time would appeal the play..

your correct no other batter would be coming to bat.. and the defense would have to make the appeal before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair
territory on their way to the bench or dugout area.
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