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Discussion: DO RUNNERS RETURN

Posted Discussion
May 2, 2020
B.J.
697 posts
DO RUNNERS RETURN
I've got one.. 1 out bases loaded.. B/R gets a hit runners on 2nd and 3rd score for the 7 run limit for the inning .. B/R rounds 1st and heads to 2nd but misses 1B.. he then realizes 7 run limit so he stops turns and heads straight into dugout..

can Rule 8.3 C be invoked.. B/R is out and all runners return? per the rule the batter failed to advance to 1B ... I know he technically did advance toward 1st and actually ran past it but he never attained the bag... is that any differnt than a runner advancing 3/4 of the way and then stopping?


8.3 ē BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT
C. When he fails to advance to first base and enters his team area after a
batted fair ball, a base on balls, or catcher obstruction. EFFECT: The ball
is dead, the batter-runner is out and runners return to the base occupied
at the time of the pitch unless put out prior to the violation.
May 2, 2020
stick8
1777 posts
BJ, maybe Iím mistaken, but based on the wording of the rule I would say the runs count because technically the batter, even though he missed first, didnít go to his team area before ďacquiringĒ first base.
Even if the defense appealed its only two outs.
May 2, 2020
B.J.
697 posts
stick.. how did the batter legally acquire 1st base he never touched the bag.. and yes it's still 2 outs.. but per the rule of the runner not advancing to 1B (legally) rule 8.3 C says runners must return

I never liked this rule... this is suppose to be an automatic call by the umpire not an appeal play..

I agree B/R should be called out for not touching 1B but sending runners back never made sense to me..

I was told a while back that because the batter never advanced (which many runners do advance toward 1B but then just stop because there is less than 2 outs) that the runners on base were not forced to advance..

but in my world of "the Eastern Central Florida Rules Sub-Committee of Umpires" the runners are forced to advance as soon as the batter gets a base hit.. whether or not the batter chooses to advance shouldn't matter
with less than 2 outs

hopefully Dave will answer my original scenario





May 2, 2020
stick8
1777 posts
BJ, at the risk of splitting hairs here I did put acquiring in quotes. Technically the runner has acquired first (even though he missed the bag) and went on to second.
Being your situation was bases loaded and one out the runs count because the appeal would only make it two outs.
If your situation was bases loaded and two outs the runs would obviously not count. The team would only get credit for 5 runs.
I can agree the wording of the rule is a bit weird. I donít disagree with anything youíve stated and I concur on how you view the rule.
But when it says ďfails to advance toward first base and enters his team areaĒ it doesnít specify what constitutes advancing toward first base. It only tells me the batter didnít get to first and just went into the dugout.
IF the batter takes 4 or 5 steps toward first and then goes into his dugout is he considered advancing toward first? Thatís a grey area in my view.
Yes I split hairs here. My apologies.
May 2, 2020
B.J.
697 posts
stick...lol right about now I have PLENTY of hairs to split with all the barber shops closed...

what's the difference between a batter going 69' down the base line and stopping or if he cuts the corner to sharp and never touches the bag ... neither runner legally attained 1B... and per the rules a runner is always assumed to touch the bag and then the defense must make an appeal..

but with this rule if the umpire sees him stop short and then walk away to the dugout he is to call him out.. with no appeal needed from the defense and return the runners

I guess my problem is that I don't understand why runners would have to return?? they should be forced to run on the base hit..

another example..
what if the ball was hit to short R field and the runner on 1st never vacated the bag.. the ball was then thrown into 1st base and they tagged the runner on 1st would he be out?
per earlier discussions with senior softball the runner on 1B is not forced to leave if the B/R fails to advance and touch 1B

with this rule here is another crazy scenario..

what if a lazy ground ball is hit to the SS and the B/R doesn't run after the hit but instead immediately enters the dugout.. the SS tosses the ball to 2B for a force out and before the throw to 1st the umpire declares batter out for entering dugout.. is the runner on 2nd now safe because he wasn't actually forced to run and was not tagged
May 3, 2020
stick8
1777 posts
BJ I think enough hairs have been split to render everyone with a lot of bald spots. lol
Letís get back to your original scenario. My contention is the runs would count even if they appealed the batter missing first because your scenario started with one out. The batter runner didnít enter into his team area or dugout before reaching first so the rule doesnít apply.
Iím not certain what the right answer is for your last two questions as it pertains to the rule. Interesting scenarios however.
Iím inclined to believe that all play is live until the batter actually sets foot in his team area. He could be one step away from his team area and still run to first.
What you think?
May 3, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
703 posts
As explained to me by Dear Moderator, Rule 8.3 is worded so that a B/R cannot enter the dugout, thus removing the force and not allowing a team a chance at a DP. Therefore runners must return to their TOP base.

You call outs in the order they're made. If you get the out at 2nd before, then the B/R is out, and no runs score with 1 out. Since they already have a rule pertaining to abandonment. It's ridiculous to me because with 1 out and a R3, batter hits a deep ball to the outfield which isn't caught, the batter, doesn't have to touch 1B as the for the run to legally score. If the batter goes directly to the dugout, R3 returns to their base with two out.

May 3, 2020
B.J.
697 posts
here's another scenario.. no outs and a bases loaded walk .. the 7th run of inning scores.. the batter takes a few steps tosses his bat and just waits by the base line while a team mate brings out his glove... the batter never enters the dugout/team area.. what's the call? ... is this a different call than if he had entered the dugout?

at what point is a runner on 1st actually forced to run?

May 4, 2020
curty
Men's 60
178 posts
B/r attempted to go to second- therefore he is assumed to have reached first- making this an appeal play. Even if 2 outs prior, runs scored before the out-- they count. Second scenario: every player & coach on the offensive team would be shouting-- touch the base!!!
May 4, 2020
stick8
1777 posts
BJ, i had the exact same situation about 3 years ago!! Exactly the same!! The batter from team A (an outfielder) got the bases loaded walk to force in the 5the run. He slowly jogged onto the field while one of his teammates brought him his glove then he ran into the outfield. What I did was watch him and didnt say a word. Team B came in and when all their players went into their team area I turned around went to my bag and marked down 5 on the scorecard.
After the game, which team B won, their scorekeeper asked me why I didnít call the guy out in that situation. ďYou didnít appeal itĒ was my answer.

May 4, 2020
B.J.
697 posts
stick.. that's why I asked that scenario because if he entered the dugout the umpire is suppose to call him out and return the runners with NO APPEAL NEEDED by the defense even though there would only now be 1 out...

so just because he didn't enter the dugout there is no call unless appealed??

I guess Dave isn't going to get involved with this?
May 4, 2020
stick8
1777 posts
BJ, the rule you cited is the letter of the law.
To your first question I would answer yes. And thatís because as you well know a runner can take any route he wants to a base as long as he doesnít pass another baserunner or go into his dugoutóout of play. Being on the field waiting for a teammate to get him his glove means heís still in play and can legally still go over and touch first base. It sounds strange but thatís how I learned it.
Hopefully Dave will chime in. But I will tell you I presented this scenario to my One Nation UIC who,presented it to a higher up at ssusa. He wasnít quite sure but he thought that rule was put in for something to do with the 5th run on a fly ball. I presented a similar scenario to yours of bases loaded 1 out. Batter hits a ground ball to short and fearing a double play runs in the dugout before any play is made. By the letter of the law itís a dead ball, heís automatically out and runners go back to the bases they occupied at the time of the pitch.. So by the letter of the law you have two outs bases loaded instead of a potential double play and 3 outs. Imho, kind of a cheap way to get out of a dp. The higher up at ssusa did indicate they are going to revisit that rule.
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