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Discussion: SAFE or OUT

Posted Discussion
Jan. 26, 2021
alan--23
7 posts
SAFE or OUT
I had a play today the batter beat out an infield hit but never touched any part of the safety bag, he actually ran over the top without touching it. I called the runner safe because runners are assumed to have touched the bag they are advancing to. The runner returned to the bag and the pitcher then began questioning whether he touched the bag and I told him it was to late for an appeal because the runner had already returned. The Mgr. came out and said per the rule it states that if there is a play on a batter-runner going to first base, the batter-runner MUST touch some portion of the double bag extending into foul territory. He will be called out if he fails to do so, except if, in the umpire's judgment, the batter-runner is avoiding a collision.
I didn't change my call and I still believe I was correct, but the Mgr. was also correct in his argument with the wording of the rule.

So was runner safe or out for not touching some part of the safety bag when a play was being made on him?
Jan. 26, 2021
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
To be honest, some rulesets will do it the way you did it, as a runner is officially considered to have obtained the base as long as they have passed it. No call signifies the runner hasn't legally touched the base.

The first baseman could have tagged him or did a live ball appeal. The pitcher could have done the exact same thing. The play isn't dead in this case until the runner has returned to legally touch the base or is put out.

Since you can legally run past first base, I remember that is what we were taught. And again not touching the base could rule in an out being made. as the runner didn't touch the legally touch first base.

I would say it comes down to which mechanic your association wants you to use.
Jan. 27, 2021
B.J.
825 posts
a runner advancing to and passing any base is presumed to have touched the base.. (unfortunately no where in SSUSA's rules does it give an explanation of this) it then takes a proper appeal by the defense before the runner returns to the base to register an out.. on a call at 1st base there should be no delay in the call once the B/R has passed the bag before the 1B has received the ball make an immediate safe call.. any delay in your call lets the defense know the runner did not touch the bag.. also after the safe call and there is no further advancement of the B/R or any other runners time should be called as you would with ant other play.. the defense then may make a dead ball appeal before the runner returns to the base to register an out

as far as the rule stating ( the batter-runner MUST touch some portion of the double bag extending into foul territory. He will be called out if he fails to do so) that's explaining that "IF" the runner does touch the bag that he must touch some part of the double bag extending into foul territory..



Jan. 27, 2021
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
Huh?!?!?

alan-23,

The mechanic you used is acceptable. You are NOT tipping off the defense. If you should use a signal,that signal should be OUT seeing as how the B/R didn't touch the base.

Just get in touch with your UIC or some higher up and see which they prefer

Easy peasy.
Jan. 27, 2021
stick8
1853 posts
Interesting situation! When a runner totally misses a base that runner is presumed to have legally touched said base. In this case the BR didnít touch either bag at first. Making a no call on this is definitely tipping the defense off, something an umpire should never do.
Based on what alan23 posted I would call the BR safe. Many times a pitcher, an alert defense or players on the bench will scream out tag him, he missed the base!! If the BR is tagged before he gets back to first then I call him out.
The question, which Iím not 100% certain of the answer, is when BR goes back to first with no live ball appeal, takes the position on the inside bag (not touching the outside bag) can you appeal that he missed the outside bag?
Added to this, and I could be mistaken, Isnít there a rule that states once a BR whoís overrun first goes back to first, the double bag is then considered to be one base?
I know itís splitting hairs but at least some of us lucky ones have hair that can be split 😀


Jan. 27, 2021
B.J.
825 posts
Wayne.. you posted (If you should use a signal,that signal should be OUT seeing as how the B/R didn't touch the base) ... please cite the rule where it states that.. any rule book I have ever read states that runners are assumed to have touched the base...

Stick.. yes.. Rule 8.4 (1) Once the batter-runner reaches first base, the double base shall be treated as one base and the fielder or runner may use either portion..

so when the runner returns he could stand on either bag
Jan. 27, 2021
UMP AR
8 posts
I agree with B.J.
Jan. 27, 2021
stick8
1853 posts
BJ, would that nullify a dead ball appeal in situation alan23 posted?
Jan. 27, 2021
B.J.
825 posts
stick... both a live and dead ball appeal would be honored if it was made BEFORE the runner returned to the base by either tagging the runner or touching the base and verbally appealing the runner had missed the base



Jan. 27, 2021
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
{Wayne.. you posted (If you should use a signal,that signal should be OUT seeing as how the B/R didn't touch the base) ... please cite the rule where it states that.. any rule book I have ever read states that runners are assumed to have touched the base..}

BTW ~ I already mentioned all of this. Plus, after a B/R has acquired first base, they are now a runner........not a B/R. Remember, first base is the base that it is legal to run thru.

FYI ~ We're not talking about rulesets. We're talking about proper mechanics for when first base is missed. When I speak of rulesets, I am talking about what different mechanics they prefer...........nothing to do with the rules.

There should be not a dead ball appeal as the runner should be returning to the base and the ball should remain live until all playing action is exhausted. A proper LIVE verbal appeal before the runner returns, or a tag by a defensive player is all that is required.

If the defense is "tipped off" it should be from the fact that the idiot B/R failed to touch the base.

If you're wondering where I get my information, it is from umpires with much more experience than you or I put together. Like I stated earlier, alan-23, ask the UIC or some other superior what signal they prefer.

Case closed....argue amongst yourselves.
Jan. 27, 2021
DieselDan
Men's 70
455 posts
Wasn't aware an appeal has to be made before the batter gets back to 1st base. An average runner usually doesn't travel very far past the bag. I always thought an appeal by the defense had to be made before the next pitch.
Jan. 27, 2021
txnighttrain
99 posts
The rule in SSUSA is clear, the runner is out if the 1st baseman caught the ball while in contact with the white base if the batter-baserunner did not touch the safety bag when a play was being made at 1st base. You seem to have been trying to call the situation as an USSSA rule which is different than SSUSA.
Jan. 28, 2021
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
txnighttrain,

What you're referring to is the batter/runner being put out. A batter/runner becomes a runner after the whole of the player's body is past the bag. Yes, if the player is still a batter/runner when they miss the base, they should be put out.

Face it, some rules contradict other rules. SSUSA could use some verbiage upgrades.
Feb. 2, 2021
stick8
1853 posts
BJ, perhaps my using ďnullifyĒ was the wrong word. I didnt intend it to mean they canít appeal. Of course they can utilize an appeal.
And wouldnít time have to be called and next batter in the box before a dead ball appeal can be made?
Feb. 2, 2021
B.J.
825 posts
stick.. no a dead ball appeal can be made right after all runners have stopped advancing and the umpire calls time.. no need for a batter to be in the box
Feb. 3, 2021
stick8
1853 posts
Ok. Thatís how itís done in young manís ball. I wasnít certain if it was that way in senior ball. Thanks
Feb. 7, 2021
Rumplestilskin
5 posts
The Rules provide that the batter runner must TOUCH the runner's base at first base before the defender's bag is touched by a player with the ball under his control. Now, if the runner ran OVER the bag without touching it AND a defensive player touched the proper bag with the ball in his possession before the runner could return he is OUT. There is no rule that a runner is "assumed" to have touched a bag. The umpire must observe the play and call it according to his observations. If he does not see the play, he can request help from the other umpire. Please NOTE that the RULES require that a player TOUCH every bag in sequence to score.
Feb. 8, 2021
B.J.
825 posts
Dave, please clear this up because I don't believe SSUSA stipulates in their rules that all runners are assumed to have touched any bag that they have passed and that it then becomes an appeal play before the runner returns to the base ..

I believe the last sentence of the rule I posted below is not meant for a runner that beats the throw but passes over the safety bag without touching it..


(If there is a play on a batter-runner going to first base, the batter-runner must touch some portion of the double bag extending into foul territory. He will be called out if he fails to do so


Feb. 9, 2021
B.J.
825 posts
Dave... again please clear this up.. what is SSUSA's ruling on if a B/R beats the throw to 1B and runs over the safety bag but does not touch it... should he be called out.. or does this become an appeal play??
Feb. 9, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3290 posts
OK B.J., here goes ...

The Rule Book language at ß8.4(1) requiring a batter-runner to touch "some portion" of the orange bag on a play at that base is founded in the context of [1] a presumption that the batter-runner DID touch the double base and [2] a resultant determination of which portion of the double-bag he DID touch ... In this hypothetical, the batter-runner did not touch either portion of the double base, which is a different issue for analysis ... The SSUSA Rule book does not discuss this specific fact pattern of missing first base entirely, which requires us to default to the ASA/USA rules for guidance ...

We believe that alan--23 made the difficult AND correct call under those rules and related notes ...

When overrunning first base, if the batter-runner misses the base, he is nevertheless presumed to have touched the base and is technically safe unless the defense appeals before the runner returns to touch the base ... In this situation, the umpire should not call the runner out when a throw arrives at first base unless an unmistakable appeal is made before the runner returns to the base ...

In short summary, he is safe on the initial play call (beating the throw) presumption of having touched the bag ... An appeal would have to be made on him missing the double bag entirely ... And once he's back to the bag, he's safe ... This is a tricky call and one that is likely to have exactly a 50% approval rating no matter what! ... Let the debate resume ...

Feb. 9, 2021
DCPete
395 posts
Hard to understand why this rule wouldn't align with all other appeals dealing with a runner missing a base, ie if the fielder caught the ball and stepped on 1st base before the runner returned and touched up why wouldn't the runner be called out on a regular dead-ball appeal for not touching/missing the base???
Feb. 9, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3290 posts
DCPete ... Sounds like you are describing an "accidental appeal", which has no effect ... Appeals do not need to be verbal, but the intent to appeal must be unmistakable ... Thanks!
Feb. 9, 2021
B.J.
825 posts
Thx. Dave
Feb. 9, 2021
DCPete
395 posts
Not sure what an "accidental appeal" is but if the Pitcher appealed that the Batter/Runner missed 1st base before the next pitch is thrown why wouldn't the Batter/Runner be Out for missing 1st base just like the appeal process for any other missed base?
Feb. 9, 2021
stick8
1853 posts
DCPete itís because in the original scenario the batter-runner went back to first base!
Feb. 9, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3290 posts
DCPete ... "Accidental appeal" ē For example, if on a clean hit you see a runner miss a base, and when getting the ball back to the pitcher the cutoff man, with the ball, inadvertently touches the base that the runner missed, the umpire should do nothing ... Appeals do not need to be verbal, but the intent to appeal must be unmistakable ...

In THIS circumstance, the batter-runner is technically safe unless the defense appeals before the runner returns to touch the base ... Your pitcher's appeal timeline expires when the batter-runner touches first base, not at some theoretical "next pitch" ...

Feb. 9, 2021
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
I don't think I've ever heard of a non-verbal appeal.

In the OP, if a fielder has the ball and tags the runner before he returns to the base, they need to verbalize the runner missed first base, as they are considered acquiring the base. In this case, I believe the ball should remain live because the runner can return to the base without liability to be put out if time is called. The reason, first base is a run thru base.

All that is required is a person with the ball touch the base and verbalize the appeal or the tag play as mentioned earlier before the runner returns. I will further elaborate a verbal appeal might suffice as SSUSA doesn't require a fielder be in contact with said base.

MLB does uses the same mechanic that alan-23 used, which what was the discussion originated to be. When I worked HS baseball, we were instructed to call the runner 🏃‍♂️ out in this
situation.

A good example of an accidental appeal would be this play and F3 being pulled off the base. In digust, he turns around and kicks the bag and says nothing to alert the umpire of his intentions.
Feb. 10, 2021
B.J.
825 posts
wayne...WOW.. with your many years and vast experience umpiring in so many different levels of ball I'm surprised you never heard of a non-verbal appeal...

here's an example runner on 1st who takes off at the crack of the bat.. the batted ball is a line drive to the SS who after making the catch easily throws back to 1B for the out since the runner never tagged after the catch/1st touch.. no defensive player had to make a verbal appeal for the out at 1st because it's considered a non verbal appeal
Feb. 10, 2021
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
That's not an appeal play. The runner 🏃‍♂️ is simply called out in your sitch. That is merely
a continuation of play. Doesn't matter if they tagged legally or not. The runner 🏃‍♂️ makes it to 2B....then you can do a verbal appeal.

Sorry boys 👦 and girls 👧.....jb is wrong again.

Feb. 10, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3290 posts
Wayne ... I can give you an example of an ACTUAL non-verbal appeal from our World Championships in 2019 ... I had several games at the park where I was working involving a team of unique and skilled ball players ... I saw a base runner leave too early from third before a fly ball was caught by the LCF defender ... He threw the ball to the 3rd baseman, who waved the ball above his head and stepped on third base ... The umpire, appropriately, called the base runner out ... Not a word was said by anyone ... Which wasn't a huge surprise to me, since the team was an Exhibition team comprised completely of players who were deaf ... (I'm not wrong on this)

Feb. 10, 2021
stick8
1853 posts
Dave, I used to umpire a deaf team in a house league several years ago. They obviously communicated with each other by sign language except when they argued a call. Then all kinds of noises were uttered and it looked like they were all doing the hand jive!!
I guess your example could be considered non-verbal but itís really a live ball appeal.
Feb. 10, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3290 posts
You're right on the "live ball appeal" clarification ... My point was to illustrate for one poster that non-verbal appeals, live- OR dead-ball, DO exist despite the apparent fact that he hasn't seen one ...
Feb. 10, 2021
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
If that was meant to be a joke, I'll tell my granddaughter who is hearing impaired. I am sure she'll get a kick out of it.
Feb. 10, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3290 posts
That was as "serious as a heart attack" (I have some expertise on that topic) and not a joke at all ... The "Deaf Team" plays in the SSUSA World's regularly ... That play happened exactly as described ... The umpire "signed" AND verbalized the "out" call for the benefit of everyone in the park ... It was a simple recitation of a FACTUAL OCCURRENCE to illustrate a concept (non-verbal appeal) that you apparently do not grasp ... And speaking of grandchildren: Hopefully someday soon you will stop acting like mine when they sleep over at our home and absolutely have to have the last word at lights out, no matter how infantile those last words may be ... Got it? ...

Feb. 10, 2021
Hank Heffner
2 posts
Dave if Wayne has never heard of a non verbal appeal that tells me he has never been to an umpire school. That question is on most umpire test. So we now know he missed at least one answer if he has ever been. The line drive back to the pitcher when the runner leaves on the contact is a non verbal appeal. The pitcher is appealing the runner left early with out saying a word. Every body in the park knows what he is appealing.
Feb. 11, 2021
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
Dear Hank,

What you described is not an APPEAL

And Dave, I pretty much answered the post from the OP much in the same VERBAL manner as you.....so if you need some clarification, ASL is considered a form of verbalization. While not vocal, it is considered a language. Hence the term American Sign Language.

I had a Catahoula Leopard dog years ago and he was a merle and they are usually born deaf. I used some sign language to teach him commands. He also followed the lead of my Miniature Schauzer.

Any more hairs you care to split?
Feb. 11, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3290 posts
Just one last hair to split ... Your condescending, factually inaccurate and repetitive disparaging swipes at me are a very unwise approach that has a high probability of adversely affecting your privileges for continued participation here ... Most people here are powerless to stop your personal attacks and other shenanigans ... I'm not ...
Feb. 11, 2021
Hank Heffner
2 posts
If it is not an appeal what is it Wayne.
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