http://seniorsoftball.com/?page=12

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 0 members ; 14 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: You make the call

Posted Discussion
Aug. 10, 2021
stick8
1905 posts
You make the call
Team A ties the game in the bottom of the 7th inning. After 3 outs the second baseman for team B is cussing out the umpire as heís going to his dugout. Umpire tosses him. Top of the 8th inning, the batter for team B who was up when last out was made in the previous inning starts at second. That batter happened to be the player who just got tossed. A player who is ejected cannot return to the game for any reason so obviously he cannot start the inning at second.. SSUSA rule for this:
Door #1) an out and no runner at second
Door #2) an out and previous batter starts at second
Door #3) no out and no runner at second
Door #4) no out and previous batter starts at second
Iím going with door #2.
(this actually happened in a young manís game I was umping last Saturday. By rule in this association teams are allowed to use a courtesy runner or a sub starting off the eighth inning. In this case a sub was put in)
What say you?
BJ, Nancy, Dave?
Thank you in advance.
Aug. 10, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
stick.. if it were SSUSA rules I would also go
with door #2
Aug. 10, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3530 posts
▲ ▲ Agreed - Door #2 ▲ ▲
Aug. 11, 2021
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1376 posts
Stick8, thanks for the shout out. Easy in seniors, #2 as my esteemed colleagues said. So young guy ball, it may depend on rules. My inclination is sub...if have one. That is a real mixed bag between association and league rules on both international tie breaker and courtesy runner. I think our rule makes sense and would probably use.

So what did you do, and what the heck was the 2B fussing/cursing about? We all hate getting the hook out at the end, but when they got to go, they got to go.

Best wishes, my friend.
Aug. 11, 2021
mad dog
Men's 65
4179 posts
big question......if you have players who have not entered the game....why can't they be subed in before they go to the field and be that runner when they come back into bat if they are in the runners spot in the lineup.....
Aug. 11, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3530 posts
mad dog ... The instant the Ĺ-inning at bat ends, the identity of the "last batter" is known and he's locked in to starting on 2B for their next at-bat ... Rulebook ß5.4(2) ē "No substitute or courtesy runner may replace him until he has reached third base" is pretty clear and specific ... No matter what gyrations are tried, it's to no effect because there's only ONE "..last batter of the previous inning who's turn at bat had been completed.." ... It's the BATTER, and NOT whoever may occupy that place in the batting order subsequently ...

Aug. 11, 2021
titanhd
Men's 60
604 posts
Not certain I agree with door#2. I'd be more inclined to go with door #1. With door number 2 we're giving the out but allowing the previous batter to occupy second base?? The rule reads "no substitute or courtesy runner".

For clarity 5th batter in lineup made last out of inning but for whatever reason can't run and by rule is called out. So we have an out and the 4th batter in lineup is allowed at 2nd base??? In my opinion That's not the rule. I'd have an out with no runner at 2ND.
Aug. 11, 2021
Donna McGuire
17 posts
As Dave and others have said, Door #2 is correct. From the SSUSA rule book: "If the last batter of the
previous inning cannot continue to play because of injury, illness, etc., he will
be declared out and the next previous batter will be the tie-breaker runner."
Aug. 12, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
titan... below is the effect of the ITB rule...

EFFECT: If the last batter of the previous inning cannot continue to play because of injury, illness, etc., he will be declared out and the next previous batter will be the tie-breaker runner.
Aug. 12, 2021
stick8
1905 posts
Nancy, it was a combination of things that led up to him going off. 0-fer at the plate including a strike out, a couple errors at second & other calls he didnít like. Of course it was all mine and my partners fault. Maybe he had too much Red Bull or drugs?
Aug. 12, 2021
titanhd
Men's 60
604 posts
Thanks BJ.
Aug. 12, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
115 posts
this situation has come up a couple times among the Senior Softball-USA forums and still creates much debate. May i interject one more scenario:

Team A ties the game in the bottom of the 7th inning and their 2nd baseman, Sam, who was called out on a very close play at first base for the 3rd out, and was the 8th player in the batting order cusses the umpire and is tossed from the game. Manager of Team A has a decent substitute and inserts him, Dave, into the lineup - at 2nd base and in the batting order in the 8th batting position.

Question 1 - is the original player, Sam out of the game and therefore cannot return to the field of play? yes or no
Question 2 - is Dave, properly substituted by his manager into the lineup now officially in the game, at 2nd base, and in the 8th batting position in the lineup? yes or no

Team B in the top of the inning complies with the ITB rule and sends the proper runner out to second base to start their half of the inning. Team A retires the side without any runs scoring. Now Team A comes to bat.

I contend that Dave, who is properly and legally substituted into the game, has played half an inning and his manager has properly followed the following Rules: 1.7 batting order, 4.7 Substitutions, and 4.8 Ejected players will assume the position of runner at second base to begin Team A's half of the inning. This is to allow the legally substituted player in the 8th hitting position of their lineup, and this is the batter position that had made their last out. Before you answer, refer to Nancy Allen's comments in previous posts, "order of Precedence" and use her instructions to fashion your answer.

I am of the opinion that the wording in 5.4(2) ITB Rule when referencing "the player or the batter" refers to the player or the batter in the batting position currently in the game, as per Rule 1.7. This rule is in place to provide structure to the rule set and a repetitive method of putting a runner at second base to start an inning that legally resides in the batting order in the slot having made the last out of the previous inning.

I know there are others on here that disagree, but i can't see one rule in the SSUSA rule book trumping at least three other rules that precede it in the rule book.









Aug. 12, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3530 posts
Q1 ē YES - Ejection is effective for the balance of that game, at a minimum
Q2 ē YES - But completely irrelevant to the ITB issue ... It is the LAST BATTER who must report to 2B, NOT the individual who may have subsequently found himself in the #8 batting order position ...

Your hypothetical continues with "..Team B in the top of the inning complies with the ITB rule and sends the proper runner out to second base to start their half of the inning.." ... If the proper runner was sent, it was the batter in the #7 slot because of the actual rule language that says "..EFFECT: If the last batter of the previous inning cannot continue to play because of injury, illness, etc., he will be declared out and the next previous batter will be the tie-breaker runner.."

You also misquote the rule: "..I am of the opinion that the wording in 5.4(2) ITB Rule when referencing "the player or the batter" ...There is no such "the player or the batter" language contained in that section ... You do not get to make up language to support a faulty presumption ... REMEMBER: It's the BATTER, and not the batting order POSITION player who is required to go to 2B and make it to 3B on his own ... This is not a difficult concept ...

Aug. 12, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
T2.. you certainly don't give up.. a couple months ago with a similar scenario you disagreed with the answers that you were given on the ITB rule and you stated you were going to follow up with some of the SSUSA hierarchy... the SSUSA National Directors and nine SSUSA State & Regional UIC's.

I'm just wondering because I never heard back from you did you ever find anyone to agree with your hypothetical version of the ITB rule??


Aug. 12, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
115 posts
DD. I didnít have 5.4(2) in front of me so I said the player or the batter, and the rule says the batter, but unfortunately the actual batter was thrown out of the game, but was substituted correctly and fairly per the ďentire rule bookĒ.

Both BJ and you have your interpretation which differs from mine. I stand by my reasoning. Nothing in my supposition is irrelevant, every thing is reflective and bound by a written rule(s). Iím fine with your disagreement but neither of you are the final word in this matter I donít think.

BJ I thought I might give my stance on this forum question one more time, with slightly different circumstances in the event that possibly you and/or DD might possibly agree with my scenario. I have prepared a request for clarification that Iím sending to the nine State & Regional UICís that I have email addresses for and will let you know.
Aug. 12, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3530 posts
T2 ... Please write it up and send it in ... You need a different stadium because you are losing consistently in this one ... In this specific thread, there are three persons who have commented (all in opposition to your interpretation) and who have served at various times on the SSUSA National Rules Committee ... Two of them have served multiple years as the Chairman of that committee (and one is the current chair) ... There are 13 voting members of the NRC ... You need to score seven runs to effect a change ... You are currently behind 3-0 on the scoreboard ... Good luck!

Aug. 12, 2021
Dbax
Men's 65
1975 posts
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Email: info@SeniorSoftball.com
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
9823 Old Winery Place, Suite 12
Sacramento, CA 95827
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts international softball tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners