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Discussion: Can a player run for another one twice in one inning?

Posted Discussion
Aug. 30, 2021
MurrayW
Men's 65
182 posts
Can a player run for another one twice in one inning?
Here's my hypothetical situation.
Player A is not a starter in the game.
Player B gets a hit, and player A runs for him and ultimately scores.
Player C gets a hit in the same inning. Can player A be substituted into the game for Player C at that time and run for him?
Aug. 30, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
Murray, hmmm good question...
I know of no rule that states that player A can't go in as a sub to run for player C after already being used as a CR earlier in the same inning

Aug. 30, 2021
grayhitter59
Men's 60
299 posts
if you put him in to hit for player c "yes"

but he can not run twice in same inning(he would be classified as a runner).
Aug. 30, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
grayhitter.. I agree with your thinking but no where in the rules does it state that it can't be done.. it says a CR cannot run twice in the same inning and technically he is not a CR he's a sub. and no where does it state that a sub. coming in would be classified as a runner... I also think he should be illegal BUT I need to see it in the rule book
Aug. 30, 2021
rmp0012002
Men's 50
45 posts
I believe you can CR for different players during a game, done that, but canít run for the same person so I would think it wouldnít be allowed.
Aug. 30, 2021
Duke
Men's 65
898 posts
Garyhitter59 is 100% correct! A courtesy runner may be used for a base runner at any time, but the same courtesy runner may not be used more than once per inning. Rule 8.5(1).

Andy Smith

Aug. 30, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
Duke, yes that is correct.. but he went in a a sub. not a CR ... show me where that is not allowed in the rules

hopefully DD will chime in where it's not allowed in the rules
Aug. 30, 2021
Duke
Men's 65
898 posts
BTW, I do not believe the courtesy runner can bat for player C in the same inning that he ran for player A.

Andy Smith
Aug. 30, 2021
Duke
Men's 65
898 posts
B.J. You are probably correct. I read the question incorrectly, since he went in as a sub for player C, not a CR. Thank you!

Andy Smith
Aug. 30, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3530 posts
Interesting discussion ... The intent was very clear long ago: An offensive player should not get to run for someone else more than once an inning ... The language is somewhat inconsistent with the intent ... Take advantage of it for the short term ... Here's a proposed simple four-word rule amendment for the National Rules Committee to consider in the fall that should shut down this loophole ... I'm confident there at least 7 votes to make it into the book! ...

ß8.5(3) ē COURTESY RUNNER REPLACEMENT
A courtesy runner may not be replaced by another courtesy runner or by a substitute except for injury causing removal of the original courtesy runner permanently from the game.

Aug. 30, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
DD.. that won't fix the problem he wasn't replacing a CR.. this was a player on the line up sheet as a sub who legally CR then entered the game as a sub for a starter that got a base hit
Aug. 30, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3530 posts
Well, then maybe it's longer than a four word fix! ... We've got time ... There's a way to word is so the effect is "No Way No How Is ANY Player Running on Behalf of Someone Else on His Roster More Than One Time an Inning for That Player!" ... We'll have to clean up the language I suspect! ... Ha!
Aug. 30, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
how about something like this??

a substitute on the roster and listed on the official lineup who has entered the game as a CR may not enter the game as a substitute to replace a runner in the same inning
Aug. 30, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3530 posts
I like it! ... You're hired ... You get the same pay I do for Rules Committee ... An occasional "Atta Boy, Dave" ... Thanks, B.J.!
Aug. 30, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
lol... thx Dave, that's the same pay rate that The Villages has been paying me to be the UIC for the last 17years.. great deal
Aug. 30, 2021
TimMcElroy
779 posts
Hi Dave,

When considering rules changes, I tend to ask myself a few questions- "Is this really an issue, or something that is happening on a frequent basis?" And- Does the current rule detract from the game?

In this case, my answer to both of those questions is No.
Aug. 31, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
Tim, I agree with you on it not really being an issue and I can't ever recall it happening .. BUT it should be made aware to all umpires, UIC's and TD's that if it does come up in a game as of now it is a legal substitution
Aug. 31, 2021
Enviro-Vac
Men's 65
464 posts
DD that four word rule change you suggest makes no sense to me.

If player A is a Sub. and has not played but is on the lineup card so as to make him/her available as a CR and runs for player B as a CR, and scores, then subsequently and in the same inning player C gets hurt and is unable to run why would player A who was legally substituted in, not be able to run for self?
Aug. 31, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3530 posts
EVM - It seems to be the consensus that I never should have typed that post ... Now I feel JUST LIKE a lot of you guys! ... NEVER MIND! ...
Aug. 31, 2021
stick8
1905 posts
MurrayW, as to how the rule is now, to answer the subject question:
No. A player cannot be used as a courtesy runner twice (or more) in the same inning
To answer the question as described in your scenario:
Yes. If player A was previously used as a courtesy runner for player B, letís say in the 4th inning, he can legally go in to the game as a substitute in the same inning for player C.
Iíve been on teams that have done this several times. One time this actually happened. Iím using names on here for examples only:
BJ, being the speedy runner he is, unfortunately was not a starter. In the 5th inning he was put in as a courtesy runner for grayhitter and ended up scoring. Later in the inning Dave Dowell was up and got a two out single. BJ went in for Dave running at first as a substitute. Dave is now out of the game. BJ scored on a double by stick. Tim was up next and flew out to end the inning. Our manager Duke then told the umpire that Dave was going back in as a re-entry for BJ.
All legal according to that umpire, and a way to skirt around the CR rule. Iím not certain but I believe BJ cannot go back into the game as a sub. But can he still be a courtesy runner in the next inning?
Correct me if Iím wrong.
Aug. 31, 2021
MurrayW
Men's 65
182 posts
Stick8, I think you described it exactly like I interpret the rule but I see no reason why BJ cannot run as a CR in the 6th or 7th innings.
Sept. 1, 2021
stick8
1905 posts
MurrayW I believe your correct. In the scenario therei is nothing in the rules that would prohibit BJ from being courtesy runner in the following innings.
But Iíll defer to BJ on this. Heís the go to guy for rules
Sept. 1, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
stick.. yes BJ could be a CR in the 6th and 7th inning but once removed from the line up BJ cannot return as a sub. again later in the game
Sept. 1, 2021
MurrayW
Men's 65
182 posts
Oh, and stick8, thanks for making BJ the CR/Sub runner rather than me! That scenario would never apply to me. After they put me into the game as a CR for the first player, my coach would have never seen me again to put me in as a sub for 2nd player! Plus, I am not sure that I would want to play for a coach that is so stupid to put me in to run once in an inning, let alone twice!
Sept. 5, 2021
stick8
1905 posts
That is correct BJ.
Sept. 6, 2021
breeze53
Men's 65
54 posts
Guys, you can run for different players as many times as you want in the same inning. You do not have a official score keeper, the umpires do not write down the players # that pinch run. It has happen to my teams twice. Open inning, a lot of hitting and pinch running. You bring attention to the umpire of the infraction. They do not remember who ran and when. No official book. No recourse. Tournament director, shrugs his shoulders. Just saying. Ain't that right Mr. McElroy.
Sept. 6, 2021
B.J.
915 posts
breeze.. I haven't worked a SSUSA tour. in several years but when I did we always tracked the CR's and the score even if there was a home team score book.. also it didn't matter if I was in a 2man system or working solo

if it's not being done the teams should be complaining to the tour. dir. and UIC
Sept. 7, 2021
TimMcElroy
779 posts
No idea what you're referring to breeze53, but here is my response to what I think you are saying.

1) The umpires SHOULD be noting CRs and substitutes as they enter the game.
2) The home and visiting book have the opportunity to note CRs and substitutes as they enter the game and SHOULD be doing so.
3) In the absence of those things and/or the official's clear recollection of player "x" running twice as a CR in an inning then there is really nothing that a UIC or Director can do to change, or create a call.

None of what I just said changes the rule, making it "legal" to run people as frequently as you'd like.
Sept. 7, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3530 posts
Tim ... It's pretty simple ... He's saying he cheats because he believes there is a slim chance that he will be caught ... That's not exactly within the spirit of respecting the game ...
Sept. 7, 2021
Enviro-Vac
Men's 65
464 posts
Great post on Sept. 1 MurrayW, good sense of humor!
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