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Discussion: roster eligibility

Posted Discussion
Dec. 20, 2021
cheesehead1
9 posts
roster eligibility
As per the discussions entered by the SSUSA staff in response to my earlier post, I made it perfectly clear, giving examples in an email and in a phone conversation,what information I was requesting on the new state/region designation for the 5 areas affected by the new rule. I was told by Tyler that the new state/region could pick up players from states bordering any of the new state/ region members. I also asked about the 2 out of region players since the prior rule disallowed some of the new state/region states from adding out of region players. I was first told they couldn't add the two players. However, Tyler called me back the next day and said that Terry Hennessey had indeed decided that the new state/region would indeed be able to also add 2 out of region players to their roster. I asked him to repeat the ruling as I was currently putting a roster together and this was an important aspect of doing so. He again stated what Terry had told him and it would be in the new rule book currently out for print and available in late January 2022. those are the facts and I'm sticking to them.
Dec. 20, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
cheesehead1 • We also made it perfectly clear that the actions AND the related Official Minutes, of the National Rules Committee did NOT reflect either your, or Tyler's, representation of what happened ... And now your dates are changing from December 17th (the date of our prior post) to something else presumably in order to fit your version of preferred events ... Regardless, here's what's going to happen next:

• I will be writing the precise enactment language of the actual Rule Amendment for Committee approval ... I can assure you it will not include any accidental fictitious repeal of the prior five-state prohibition, and
• The Sacramento Home Office will be closed for Winter Break from 5:00 PM on Friday evening, December 17th, until 9:00 AM on Monday morning, January 3rd ... Happy Holidays to all! ...

P.S. - It's OK (and actually encouraged) that you add to this message thread rather than starting a new one for each individual post ... Thanks

Dec. 21, 2021
cheesehead1
9 posts
Geez.sorry that people are taking what was a post to discuss the new rules concerning the new region/state as some kind of conspiratorial attack with me now changing dates to back up a conversation I had with Tyler concerning this rule.I have reported honestly the discussion I had with Tyler and although I may have misconstrued the date of that conversation it takes nothing away from the facts of that conversation. Maybe you should contact Tyler and get the facts of our conversation from him. My email sent to SSUSA on this subject is open for you to analyze and you'll find the example I gave to help in the discussion for clarity is very specific and clear to decipher. My intention was to get exact answers as to who would be eligible to join our team so that we wouldn't have roster problems down the road.Although Tyler initially told me out of district players would not be available for certain states he indeed did call me the next day to let me know that Terry Hennessey had corrected that. That's the exact facts of what went down and if you have questions ask Tyler and quit painting me as some sort of distributor of false information. I hear perfectly clear.Whether we can add out of district players or not to our team my intention is to understand clearly the rules we'll formulate our team under.

PS- I figured out how to add to the thread
Dec. 21, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
cheesehead1 • Let's take another more simplistic cut at this since it's not difficult at all to correct this misunderstanding ... In each of the past two National Rules Committee sessions, there has been only ONE item each year affecting Oregon based teams:

• 2020 • "Teams NOT based in high-population player states (California, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon or Hawaii) are allowed to carry two out-of-region players from the team’s side of the Mississippi River." NOTE: This rule has NOT been amended or repealed to date and is still in effect.
• 2021 • "Expanding Alaska region: Group Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Hawaii and Western Canada together as a region/state." NOTE: The ONLY change affecting Oregon based teams is the addition of one more bordering state (Alaska) and the Western Canada provinces.

CONCLUSION: Unfortunately, the person you spoke with regarding your hypothetical roster scenario was INCORRECT in the advice you ultimately received (and for which we apologize) ... This is most likely because he was either unaware of the 2020 NRC action affecting Oregon based teams, failed to recognize the nuances that 2020 action has with the 2021 NRC action, or both ... Accordingly, AS THE RULES ARE CURRENTLY CONSTITUTED, Oregon based teams are NOT permitted to roster two out-of-region players ... You may, however, now draw players from AK (new), CA, HI, ID, NV, WA and the Western Canada provinces (new) ... I have no opinion on whether or not the National Rules Committee would entertain any future consideration of this item ... Good luck this Season ...

Dec. 23, 2021
cheesehead1
9 posts
Dave, now we're getting somewhere. My only purpose has been to understand the new rules pertaining to the new region/state and to understand which states we can draw players from. Now the question persists; if we are a team out of the state of Washington, will we be able to draw from those same states and Western Canada and still have 2 out of district players? Let's clear this up once and for all. Thank you for your assistance in this discussion its appreciated.
Dec. 23, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
No worries cheesehead1 ... This is a lot like a ball game: Understanding the (correct) ground rules before the first pitch tends to eliminate later controversies! ... Here are a couple things to keep in mind during your roster-build as a possible WASHINGTON team ...

• The "home state" of a team is the state where a majority (or plurality if no majority) of players reside ... The Manager's state of residence is a part of that calculation, but otherwise has no additional relevance or weight ... The home state analysis is made on a tournament-by-tournament basis and can change throughout the Season ... If, for example, you are a WA team by having seven WA guys, six OR guys and two out-of-region guys, that's fine ... But if two of your WA guys can't make it to an event, you will become an OR team for that tournament and the two out-of-region guys will NOT be available to you unless/until you are a WA team again ...

• Just being on the "master roster" is not the determining factor, but rather being on the specific tournament roster and actually playing in THAT EVENT ... We've "been there, done that scheme" before and the discovery consequences include post-event forfeiture of all games and potential manager & player sanctions ... About 10-15± years ago, one northeastern team had five guys listed on every tournament roster for several years ... Well, someone whispered (accurately) in our ear that those guys NEVER PLAYED ... They were rostered ONLY to create the illusion that they were from the specific state that would tip the home state to that one, thus allowing the team to reach into the next state over for the guys they REALLY wanted ... So, don't do it: We check for that now! ... Good luck!

Dec. 24, 2021
cheesehead1
9 posts
Dave, one more question concerning the new region/state rule that I may have been given information on but it may have been misinterpreted . If we are out of Washington I realize we can pick up 2 out of district players, but if we pick up 2 players out of Montana are they out of district. The information I was given was that this new region/state, state being the word in question, allowed me to pick up players from any state that bordered this region/state. Since Montana borders Western Canada under this interpretation they would not be out of district. I posed this very question to Tyler and was told they won't count as out of district. Now, I,m not trying in any way to throw Tyler under the bus because I'm aware as we've seen that questions can be misinterpreted but I thought I delivered my inquiry in a way that was best understood. I was told that this new region/state was considered "one state" thereby allowing all states touching to be available for playing without "out of district" designation.
Dec. 24, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
Fair question ... Here's the "deal" in that context, along with one other relevant item that hasn't (until now) been published ... There is a technical problem with the composition of the new "Alaska Region" that is being corrected by a technical amendment from the National Rules Committee, electronically next week ... The amendment involves removing Hawaii and Oregon from the "Alaska Region" ... They will both still be "bordering states" to Alaska, and that access was the motivation behind the requested region change initially, but they will NOT end up being a bordering "region" to California and/or Nevada ... The amendment under consideration is:

"..The western states of Alaska and Washington, and the Western Canada region shall be merged and treated as a single region for "States and Bordering States" roster eligibility.."

That took a while to get to your actual inquiry, but here are the answers, dependent upon your actual Home State:

• YES, as a WASHINGTON team you may draw an unlimited number of otherwise eligible (as to age and team experience rating history) players from Montana because MT borders Western Canada, which is a component of the Alaska Region that includes WA ... Any such players would meet the definition as being from the "state or bordering states" to WA ...
• NO, as an OREGON team, because [1] MT is NOT a bordering state to OR and [2] because OR teams are prohibited (as a bordering state to CA) from adding any "out-of-region" players ...

Hope this helps ...

Dec. 25, 2021
cheesehead1
9 posts
Wow, Dave, . You're making this conversation much easier to understand and it's very much appreciated. I'm assuming that a Washington team can still add 2 out of region players and that Hawaii remains a bordering state to Washington so Hawaii players would not be considered out of region. I thank you for your technical breakdown of a complicated rule change while explaining it in a very understandable manner.
Dec. 25, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
Both of your assumptions are accurate ... Glad to be able to help ... Good luck this season ...
Jan. 1, 2022
cheesehead1
9 posts
Dave, I'd like to make a comment on the removal of Hawaii from the new region/state and their inability to add out of district players. I understand somewhat the restrictions placed on Hawaii due to its neighbor status with California, but playing out of Hawaii has unique challenges for teams out of Hawaii and players from Hawaii. As for teams, yes they may be able to draw from California but getting players to join Hawaii teams is a real challenge since in most instances Hawaii teams are severely hampered from attending more than a limited amount of tournaments due to high travel costs and now covid travel requirements. Your player pool is severely reduced because many mainland players want to play multiple tournaments and local 2 day tournaments which Hawaii players won't travel to. With respect to individual players, many teams are reluctant to add Hawaii players because of their inability to play multiple tournaments including 2 dayers. It forces teams to add more players to cover their ability to play tournaments that the Hawaii guys can't attend. It also puts the teams and the Hawaii players in a bind because when the Hawaii players show up you now have to make decisions on alienating players who get replaced in the lineup by Hawaii guys. If you're a great player you may catch a break. But if you're an average or good player you face challenges as listed above. Hawaii has many if not all the same challenges as the Alaska teams and players and should be included in the new region/state. It should also be allowed that if you have a roster that has say 4 players from Hawaii and 3 players from other participating states that the team should not be forced to designate its home state as Hawaii. This only increases the challenges of Hawaii players to find a team. These are real challenges I personally have experienced being from Hawaii. I've both been asked how many tournaments I can attend and been told that we don't want to add too many Hawaii players because it will screw up our home state opportunities. These are things that the rules committee may not fully understand but us Hawaii guys encounter every year when looking for a team or putting a team together. We love softball in Hawaii and would look forward for SSUSA to more fully understand our situation.
Jan. 1, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
Thanks cheesehead1 ... I appreciate and respect your perspective, but for one thing you typed: The Rules Committee is fully cognizant and informed about the unique factors affecting Hawaii ... The reason that Hawaii and Oregon were pulled from the "Alaska Region" is because it was never our intent to have the Alaska Region become a "bordering region" to California and/or Nevada, which would have resulted from the initial error of our ways ...

The person who requested relief was asking only for the benefit of Alaskan based teams to be able to draw from HI and OR ... In doing what we (eventually) did, we met his request ... Alaskan teams may now draw from their own region (AK, WA and W. Canada) AND their bordering states of HI, OR, ID, MT, ND and MN ... Had we not fixed this, CA and NV teams would have been able to draw from a more broad base than appropriate ... No matter what we do, or don't, there will always be the implied challenge for the posting public to attempt defining the perfect "..but, WHAT IF..?" scenario ... Thanks for writing, and Happy New Year! ...

Jan. 1, 2022
Fabe
Men's 60
444 posts
Mahalo for bringing to light some of the challenges we experience coming from the Islands! We will still enjoy the moments we have playing this awesome game with our Island Braddahs, yet we are unique to some of these rules. However; what ever SSUSA decides we will continue to compete! Happy New Years to ALL n stay healthy n safe! Aloha, Fabe
Jan. 1, 2022
cheesehead1
9 posts
Mahalo Dave for your quick response and on New Year to boot. Just pointing out the unique challenges us Hawaii guys face each year playing the game we love. We'll keep on keeping on in spite of it all. Bottom line is that we have many players who would love to participate but don't because of certain obstacles which include but aren't limited to cost of travel and ability to be available for multiple mainland tournaments especially 2 dayers. Finding the perfect scenario where we as players fit can be exhausting and frustrating. We do love this game.
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