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Online now: 1 member: TABLE SETTER 11; 68 anonymousDiscussion: WHY ARE THESE OFFENSES CALLED DIFFERENTLY
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| Jan. 5, 2022 B.J. 1105 posts | WHY ARE THESE OFFENSES CALLED DIFFERENTLY I had this come up at my umpire clinic last month and I couldn't give an answer .. this is pertaining to the 5 run limit per inning and runners who are forced to advance but fail to advance to the next base the scenario is bases loaded no outs and 4 runs in .. the B/R gets a hit but he fails to advance to 1st base, as he enters his dugout he is immediately called out by the umpire (without an appeal) and all runners have to return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch and no run would score per rule Rule 8.3 C using this same scenario if it's the runner on 2nd who is also forced to advance and he fails to touch 3rd and he enters the dugout with no outs he would only be called out on appeal by the defense and the run would score QUESTION .. 1) why is the BR called out with no appeal ? 2) for the B/R why do all runners have to return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch and no run would score per rule Rule 8.3 C ... BUT .. the runner on 2nd that doesn't advance to 3rd is only called out if an appeal is made by the defense and the runners do not have to return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch and the run would score |
| Jan. 5, 2022 DCPete 409 posts | Rule 8.3C might make sense if there were 2 Outs at the time but having all the runners return to their base on a hit just because the batter didn't touch 1st base is just technical nonsense with no reasonable justification. |
| Jan. 7, 2022 stick8 1991 posts | Good points DCPete. Like BJ asked I would have similar questions. I’d be curious to know the intent of this rule. |
| Jan. 7, 2022 TimMcElroy 942 posts | I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a batter to run 70 feet after getting a hit or taking a walk. Same theory should apply to runners on base. IMO, the offensive team shouldn't benefit because somebody in their dugout was too lazy, or too big of a showboat to do the minimum. Run the bases and this is a non-issue. |
| Jan. 7, 2022 B.J. 1105 posts | Tim, thx for answering.. I 100% agree with you.. but as you know it does happen and as I stated above the question came up at my clinic .. I know you are a UIC with SSUSA and are on the rules committee .. so why is the same base running offense treated differently for a B/R then a runner, not only the no appeal needed to call the B/R out .. but also returning all the runners back to their base |
| Jan. 7, 2022 rmp0012002 Men's 50 57 posts | The way I see it is the B/R didn’t finish his at-bat by touching first, just like any base runner missing a base. I would still have the run score and runners advance since there were no outs. |
| Jan. 8, 2022 B.J. 1105 posts | rmp.. that is not what rule 8.3 C says |
| Jan. 8, 2022 DCPete 409 posts | Tim et al; pretty inconsistent ruling at best since both the Batter & all Runners are supposed to stop where they are and return to the dugout on any over the fence Home Run. Once the 5th run/runner has touched home plate with less than 2 outs, it should be just as much of a dead ball situation as a home run |
| Jan. 8, 2022 stick8 1991 posts | Take BJ’s scenario a step further. After the rule was applied and the play was over its bases loaded with one out. Then suppose the next batter hits into a 6-4-3 double play, the fifth run doesn’t score. This could be the reason that the team loses the game by 1 run! That’s why on any tournament team I’ve ever played on has always stressed touch the next base in situations like this. |
| Jan. 10, 2022 curty Men's 60 187 posts | Guys- 2 different scenarios: the runner on second MIGHT not have to advance in some scenarios i.e. force play on runner from first, the original runner could return. The batter does not have that option. If the batter ran past first without touching the base, that would constitute an appeal-- entirely different situation, as appeal makes the run scoring a timing play. My interpretation |
| Jan. 10, 2022 B.J. 1105 posts | curty.. the original scenario was very specific bases are loaded so all runners MUST advance.. SSUSA treats the same type of violation of not advancing to the next base differently for B/R than a normal runner forced to advance ... The question is WHY?? So far they have yet to give a reason??? BTW your scenario of the B/R missing 1st base .. you are correct it would be appeal but it's not considered a timing play the run would score if there had been less than 2 outs at the time of the violation ...and if the there were 2 outs and the B/R was called out on appeal for missing the base the run would not score even if the appeal came after the runner had scored |
| Jan. 11, 2022 curty Men's 60 187 posts | BJ-- simply for understanding purposes: in your scenario, ball fielded by shortstop, thrown to second base for force out. R2, leaves 2nd base but second baseman throws to third to get lead runner BUT that runner can return to second base, and must be tagged to be out, then third base throws to first to get b/r who isn't running-- triple play! I have been a part of this scenario! |
| Jan. 11, 2022 B.J. 1105 posts | curty.. yes the COMPLETELY different scenario you just gave is 100% correct... what I would like answered by Dave, Tim or someone else on the rules committee is MY scenario.. BUT seems like none of the powers to be want to or just can't explain WHY there is a different penalty for B/R then a runner and why the B/R is an automatic call by the umpire but it's an appeal play for a runner???? |
| Jan. 12, 2022 curty Men's 60 187 posts | AAH BJ- this scenario CAN happen in your case-- if no runner except the runner on third were to advance, even on a hit, if the defense is an it's toes! |
| Jan. 12, 2022 B.J. 1105 posts | curty .. a scenario is written to get a answer on a specific play .. again YOU are changing my original scenario by saying only 1 runner advanced.. if you keep changing what I originally asked you can always come up with a different answer.. it's been a week now and SSUSA still hasn't responded .. that just tells me that no one on the SSUSA rules committee has the slightest idea why they have a TOTALLY DIFFERENT call and penalty for a B/R that does not advance to 1st base as to a runner who doesn't advance to their next base when forced to ??? |
| Jan. 13, 2022 DCPete 409 posts | And they also haven't addressed why the Batter that doesn't run to 1st base on a hit with the bases loaded, nobody out and 4 Runs in is punished for being "lazy" but a Batter hitting an over-the-fence HR isn't punished or lazy even if they never leave the Batter's Box after their swing. |
| Jan. 13, 2022 TimMcElroy 942 posts | B.J. - I will look into this a bit further with some other folks on the rules committee. I've got a multitude of more pressing things on my plate right now, so it will likely be the DEC, 2022 rules committee meeting before any in depth conversations on the matter take place. That answer likely won't appease the masses, but that's the reality. it is what it is. I normally don't chime in on message board questions, and have been reminded why.... 1) A tongue in cheek suggestion that somebody just run the bases somehow became an official response from the national office and 2) somebody will always take the scenario and add 11 more "what ifs" to the original question. |
| Jan. 13, 2022 B.J. 1105 posts | Tim, I fully understand and thx.. |
