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Discussion: Commitment line on a tag up.

Posted Discussion
May 19, 2022
Bigtimer40
5 posts
Commitment line on a tag up.
Had a situation come up this week. Zero outs runners on 1st and 2nd. Deep fly ball to left field that everyone including the runner on 2nd was for sure clearing the fence. Ball is caught at the fence, runner from 2nd has passed the commitment line and was almost to the scoring line. Runner on first played it smart and went bag for the tag up and headed towards second and stopped within inches of it. Ball comes in Shortstop touches second, runner from 1st immediately puts his foot on the bag. Runner from 2nd just stood around the commitment line and watched it. My call: i signal out as soon as the fly ball is caught, I then signal an out for the runner that missed the tag up at second, and the runner from 1st to second is safe. The question here is, when was the runner from 2nd actually out? When he crossed the commitment line, or when the base he failed to tag up from was touched? When should the base have been available to the runner from 1st without being able to be put out?
May 19, 2022
B.J.
991 posts
bigtimer.. I don't have the runner from 2nd being out until the defense makes an appeal that he left early.. you said the SS touched 2B but you didn't say he made an appeal of the runner leaving early?? If he did then the out
occurs at the time of appeal and the SS touching 2B.. as far as the runner from 1st the base would be open as soon as the runner vacates 2B and touches the next succeeding base ..
May 19, 2022
fresnomdn
9 posts
I would guess (and hope) that the commitment line issue would be nullified by the catch and need to return to 2B. I don't know why there would need to be an 'appeal' made for the play at 2B, as long as the ball is in play. I don't believe I've ever seen a player appeal throwing behind the runner on a caught fly ball, except when the play has ended - i.e., 1st & 3rd one out and flyball caught. Runner from 3d tags legally and scores, but defense then appeals the runner from 1st. The 3rd out is on the appeal so the runner scores . . . however, if the defense threw immediately to the base left early, the 3rd out could occur before the run scores. The runner leaving early is what triggers the out. Sorry for the lengthy response.
May 19, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3783 posts
fresnomdn ... To my knowledge, there is no known exception allowing a base runner to retreat from the home plate side of the commitment line back to the third base side without being called out ... It's rare that a base runner has made it 105' from second base in that amount of time, but I suppose it's possible ... If I'm the umpire, I have an out the moment he retreats back across the commitment line, regardless the reason ... Make life easy on yourself and don't worry about the shenanigans at/around second base ... The original base runner from there is already out the moment he re-crosses the commitment line heading the "wrong" way!

May 20, 2022
B.J.
991 posts
fresno.. I agree with DD if the runner had re-crossed the C/L he should immediately be called out .. but the OP said the runner from 2nd just stood near the scoring line after passing the C/L.. As far as making a verbal appeal remember you had a runner who was advancing to 2nd on the tag up .. was the SS trying to get him out?? It doesn't specify in the OP.. is the umpire suppose to just assume what he is doing?
May 20, 2022
curty
Men's 60
183 posts
appears to be no commitment line violation from the op, but that runner is out @ 2b for failure to retouch after the catch- dp. R2 safe at 2b. IF SS touches runner from 1b, then on bag = triple play!
May 20, 2022
Bigtimer40
5 posts
the commitment line violation isn't an out until it is recrossed is what i understand. So as long as the player doesn't recross it to retreat back to second, he is not out until the bag is touched?
May 20, 2022
mck71
273 posts
CRAZY scenario! So SS should have tagged the runner going to 2B and then looked at the umpire and state he was appealing the runner on 2B left early BEFORE stepping on the bag for the triple play!

The defensive team has plenty of time since the ONLY way for the lead runner who was on 2B to get back there LEGALLY would be to cross that commitment line, then he is out any way so worry about the other runner from 1B would be the smart play. Of course the part that we all forget is that we are all OLD guys and forget way too much stuff without any "game pressure" being applied. LOL

Also, you are only allowed 1 appeal so as soon as the SS touched 2B, that allowed the runner from 1B to stay at 2B (can't appeal them leaving early from 1B if you want to get the out without run scoring which would happen if you didn't appeal the guy from 2B, I BELEIVE that is correct but I am sure if not someone will correct me).

I have 2 outs with a runner on 2B (Runner from 2B will be the 2nd out, 1st was the catch! :-)
May 20, 2022
Mikelmart
108 posts
Of course all of this is predicated on what the umpire saw. If the 2B runner was already past the commitment line it should be he was an obvious out because he never made it back to 2B when the shortstop touched the bag. There would then have to be an assumption of the runner at first tagging up. If the umpire is looking at the catch he would then have to look at the 1B runner for the tag up since the 2B runner took himself completely out of the play. The only argument would be from either team on the tag/no tag which the umpire would then have to determine DP or TP.
June 8, 2022
Packerman412
3 posts
Well here’s how I think it would be or should be ruled. We have the catch for the out runner never tagged up ball bets him back to second base for the. Second out. Runner from 1st safe as he never was tagged. Now if in my judgement S umpire on an appeal that the runner left early from 1st then out there as well. The play at second is the same thing as any caught ball with the throw beating the runner back to the bag got an out
June 9, 2022
B.J.
991 posts
packerman.. yes the catch is out #1 .. but the ball being thrown back to 2b and the SS touching the bag .. was it for the runner who is just standing between the CL and the scoring line or did he inadvertently touch the bag to try to make a play on the runner who legally tagged up on 1st and was advancing to 2B?? without having the runner who has left early actually attempting to return to tag you must have a verbal appeal of why you are touching the bag .. if no one on the defense yelled out that the runner on 2nd never tagged up the umpire can't just assume the defense touched the bag for the runner leaving early

June 10, 2022
Packerman412
3 posts
BJ. To me you have the same thing as this. Line drive gets hit and is caught for the out I throw behind the runner who did not tag up before the catch and throw beats the runner back to the bag for a DP. SAme thing would apply here at no time was there a verbal appeal
June 10, 2022
Packerman412
3 posts
Donna Mcquire were you at on this
June 10, 2022
B.J.
991 posts
packerman.. in your scenario yes I would have an out .. that is considered a non-verbal appeal .. but in the OP there was no runner trying to return to the bag therefore the defense has to appeal so the umpire knows why they are stepping on the bag .. remember there was also a runner advancing from 1B.. was the SS on the bag and getting down for a tag play??
June 10, 2022
Donna McGuire
24 posts
Let’s see if I can answer the key questions. 1. When do you call the out on the runner from 2B who did not tag? If he had recrossed the commitment line, you would call the out as soon as that happens. In this case, he stood near the scoring line, so the out is not called until the defense properly appeals. 2. When was 2B available for the runner from 1B? As soon as it was clear that the runner from 2B had “given up” that base, which happened when he touched 3B. Runner from 1B could have stepped on 2B and been safe even during the live ball appeal. 3. Does the defense have to make a verbal appeal when throwing back to 2B on this live ball appeal? OK, there’s a lot of discussion on this. Bottom line, it depends on what the defense says and does. For example, if someone yells, “He didn’t tag at second,” and then the defense throws to 2B, I have an out when the defense touches the base. But if no one says anything, as an umpire I hesitate to see what play they defense is making. Usually, someone will say they are appealing. Perhaps this live ball appeal language from umpirebible.com explains it best:: “The appeal must be explicit. A defensive player with the ball must then either tag the player whose action is being appealed, or touch the base at which the appealable action took place, and then must indicate to the umpire either verbally or with an unmistakable action the intention to appeal. An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire."
June 11, 2022
B.J.
991 posts
Donna Thx.. I agree 100%
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