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Online now: 6 members: Bobby B, Runner Blue, TABLE SETTER 11, TommyO, Wheat99, softball4b; 106 anonymousDiscussion: Response To Altered Bat Policy
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| July 5, 2004 Sam Lee Men's 60 31 posts | Response To Altered Bat Policy I recently sent this to USSSA but it applies to all associations. I sent it mainly b/c of the presumption of guilt w/o the benefit of a trial. We all have bought bats off the internet and cannot possibly vouch for the integrity of the prior owner/owners. So I sent the following: http://www.usssa.com/sports/AlteredBats.htm I was looking over your altered bat policy. It is well intended but flawed. It presumes guilt. It affords no due process- no hearing. There is no guarantee of chain of custody of the bat. Any tourny director who may not like a player can take his bat, doctor it, ship it off to be tested and then ban the player. And if the player disagrees and demands some rights then he gets banned. Aren't you glad that the criminal justice system does not operate like USSSA. Really, a presumption of guilt and no trial. Just get arrested and off you go to the pen or jail to serve your mandatory sentence. Aren't you glad that you as a citizen have many more rights and safeguards to protect your liberties than what USSSA affords softball players. Aren't you glad that you live in a country that is not governed by USSSA? Does USSSA have a lawyer? Did he approve that policy? If so, I sure would like to have his name, address and office telephone. Sam Lee Angleton, Texas |
| July 5, 2004 DoubleL10 Men's 70 907 posts | I'm glad we finally got a lawyer on the players' side able to verbalize what a large number of players have been saying to each other. It sure does seem like in our society, we have gone in just the opposite direction of what the criminal justice system SAYS - innocent until PROVEN guilty! LL |
| July 5, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | Sam Lee: The name of the USSSA lawyer is David Evaul and guess what he is real right close to you boys right there in texas. You can e-mail me at sales@kellysultimatesports.com and i will give you his phone number. A little bit more on the Altered bat policy. When we go to the USSSA worlds in panama beach, each team and each player will sign an agreement which binds them to the Altered bat policy. If a bat that they are using is questioned by another player or by a USSSA official, his options are to turn over the bat for a field inspection or refuse to do so and be suspended for 1 year, if the bat is found to be altered then it is a 2 year suspension. if the bat is clean , it is handed back and the game presumes. If the USSSA has reasonable doubt?? just like the regular law seems to have at times, then they confiscate the bat for further and more reliable testing. Now i am not sure where that differs from what the police do every day, whenever they have a reason to be suspicious. The real point here is to clean up the game and to stop giving certain players and teams an unfair advantage. What is the problem with that??? If a DUI guy refuses to take a breath or blood test, his licsense will be automatically suspended. Only reason for refusal in either case would be a guilty party. I am with you BIG time on the ball issue. They cant have it both ways. What you said about ball compression is very accurate and to flip the coin, when it is 50 degrees, the ball will go up in compression value a good 100 psi. Problem is we play in 90 degree weather and i for one am not interested in hitting mush balls again in this lifetime. I have it from the TD in Panama Beach that the ball with be 525 compression. Lets hope he is not full of bs on this one. Sam, i have done business with you before and respect your opinions, this bat altering policy will take some getting used to but is needed for the game, i dont hear anyone else with a better suggestion or solution. Take Care Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+ |
| July 5, 2004 Sam Lee Men's 60 31 posts | Mike, you have sold so many used bats that you don't know whether any of them were altered. And if one of the used bats that I bought from you has been slightly shaved or loaded then I can't tell. But I would be the one getting banned. Not you. Not the real culprit. Just me, and I may have done nothing. All I did was buy a used bat from Mike Kelly b/c it was a good deal. No trial, no proof of knowledge or intent. Is that your idea of fairness? Guilty and no forum available to prove your innocence? You are correct when you say that will take a little time to get used to, if ever. I am not talking about painted bats. Any player ought to know if his bat is painted. I am talking about slightly loaded or shaved. How do you tell? |
| July 5, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | Sam Lee: Your right and i did sell a bunch of used Miken Ultra 2's. They could have been altered by a previous owner. Did we check them all for end loading = Yes. No way to tell if they were shaved or altered inside. I sent back over 100 bats to miken that i deemed not fit for resale and they were filtered out by another one of there sources = Corky. I have kept my hands as clean as i could and would want to jepordize you or any one else. If you have any doubt about the used bats that i sold you, i will send you a ups call tag and have you ship them back to me at my expense for a check up to see if they are end loaded or appear to be altered. Let me know if you want the call tag, just let me know how many bats are involved as i recall selling you a bunch of them. Thanks Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50 + |
| July 5, 2004 Sam Lee Men's 60 31 posts | Mike, I have no idea which U2s came from you and which came from the internet. They all look the same and were not sold by serial number, as I recall. If one of them is funny then it is not your fault. You got them from Miken who got them on trades from who knows where. If I have a problem with U2s, which I doubt, I'll just blame Corky, from whom I have not bought a U2. |
| July 5, 2004 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | Mike, an uneducated guess from me would be that there are more doctored PST's being used than any others. If a players suspects that an opponent's PST is altered because of the sound it makes or because this guy mashes the ball does he have the option to stop the game and have the bat inspected? Can this inspector tell if the walls have been shaved and the bat end loaded? What if the inspector has reasonable doubt? Will this guy be without his bat for weeks or months while the bat is checked closer? Maybe the protesting person or team should put up money that will be forfeited if the bat is found to be legal. Will there be time limits on the games in PC? What if someone wants to question every bat used by a team? And by the way, I don't want a call tag for my U2 that I bought from you. See you in Panama City. |
| July 5, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | Sam Lee: I hand picked your order because you wanted certain bats. I can vouch for the ones i sent you as i did check them first. The way to check the U2 for Balance point is to measure 21 inches up from the end knob and then hold the bat at that measured spot with the bat head out in front of you and see if the bat balances even. if the head of the bat goes up or stays even then your ok, if the head of the bat goes down, then it is end loaded. We are about at the end of the road for ultra 2's as only ISA?? Who?? and SSUSA even let it be used any more in tournament play. Take Care Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+ |
| July 5, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | BruceinGa. The PST is one of the bats to be concerned with. Yes, it starts with a manager asking the umpire to inspect any bat. They get the TD invovled and the TD will do some field tests on it and if they deem it need more testing then they confiscate it. If they think it is all right, then they give it back and we move on. I am not overly concerned with any one wanting to have my bats checked because i know them to be legit. Might a team just want to get back at another team and ask that one of there bats be checked, probably will happen. Does it matter = only if there is something wrong with the bat. The USSSA official that will be in Fl. will know bats and he will know after a few simple field tests to either go further with it or to just let it drop. I have played agaisnt guys using the origiinal velocite with miken ultra 2 grapics and the lastest thing is a miken ultra 2 with freak graphics. Seems the bat dimensions are the same and fairly easy to copy. The sound and loading of a freak is way different then the u2 and so is the end result. I dont want to start a witch hunt here and end loaded bats are not my priority, shaved aluminum bats and bats whose graphics have been changed are my main concern. How is your u2 i sold you holding up??? Thanks Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+ |
| July 5, 2004 Sam Lee Men's 60 31 posts | Mike- I have had no problem with any of my bats. Thanks for personally checking all of them. I did not know that you did that. It must be quite time consuming to give customers that type of personal treatment. If a problem ever arises then I will refer the folks to you-if I can figure out what I bought from you and what came from other internet sources. Too bad there are no serial numbers on the invoices. |
| July 6, 2004 DoubleL10 Men's 70 907 posts | Mike, Sam and Bruce- I was not aware that doctored PSTs were such a problem - no one on our team even has one they are so expensive. On the Ultras however, I have seen painted Ultra I's and II's that look like the ugly VelociteE and the newer Velocite2E. Both were being used by young guys in local open tournaments. I would not know an illegal bat by sound but I have heard of some guys getting Ultra II's painted to look like Freaks. I just don't see the point. If it gets to the point where I feel like I have to cheat to be competitive, it's time to break out the golf sticks! Best of luck to you all and hope to run into Bruce and Mike at the Nationals. I'll see you, Sam, in League. LL |
| July 6, 2004 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | Mike, my U2 is still good. I used it in last year's senior fall league, the Mohr Board Spring Training, the SSWC qualifier in Auburn and plan to use it in the SSWC Nationals in Las Vegas. Beyond that, I'll probably only use for hr derby. |
| July 6, 2004 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | Mike, I just measured the balance point on my U2. Its 19 1/4 inches from the end of the knob. If the "cutoff" is 21, I guess that the bat doctors will take that into consideration when loading a bat. My most endloaded bat is my 28 oz Techfire. Its the one that I am least likely to use. |
| July 6, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | BruceinGa: You are 100% correct. I gave the other number from home last night, went into the store today and it is 19 inches from the end knob to have a perfect balance point. My bad, Memory is the first thing to go i guess. Thanks for correcting me. Look me up in Fl. i will be real glad to meet you. Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+ |
| July 6, 2004 Sam Lee Men's 60 31 posts | Then whole battted balls speed is suspect to me. What is the bat speed of the machine they use to hit the ball? What is the bat speed of the average major league baseball player? What is the average bat speed of an average size male softball player? I doubt if very many of us, if any, generate a batted ball speed of 105mph using our U2s hitting a 44 cor or 47 cor ball. This whole bat thing is crap, in my opinion. Miken made the U2, ASA approved it and we bought it and then ASA banned it. They should have grandfathered it and controlled the game with the ball. The real problem was that other manufacturers could not compete in the composite market and all were glad to see the U2 banned. Just my opinion. |
