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Online now: 1 member: Joecool; 85 anonymousDiscussion: What do you think.
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| Nov. 27, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | What do you think. What percentage of seniors does anyone think use end-loaded or shaved bats? I'll start by saying 5 per cent or less. |
| Nov. 27, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | That's illegally end loaded or shaved bats. Still 5 per cent or less for me. |
| Nov. 27, 2009 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Some endloads are stock... Miken has at least two. As for ratio...I doubt you can, but would venture a guess it's in\at all ages and levels. Read the boards & web sites... Services are advertised on some of the most "reputable" ones out there. |
| Nov. 27, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, what are you basing that 5% statement on? It is easy just to speculate, what evidence do you have for that? And by the way, even just 5% means at least one player in EVERY game is using one on average. That is not at all insignificant. |
| Nov. 27, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Gary, you're starting to sound positive in the last two posts. Way to go, really. No reason, for me, we can't get along. I think it's less than 5 per cent in fact, but even one on a team is not enough to go to war for. We just ratchet up the pressure and consequences to police ourselves like guys do about hitting the middle. I hit a rocket through the box unintentionally against MTC 50's last year in a local tournament and Smokey 20 pulled me over and put me back in line. We can police ourselves if we believe we can and it's the best thing for the game and all of us. The rush to change bats/balls/rules et cetera is not the way to go and to me, is the sign of other agendas and interests. |
| Nov. 27, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Thanks, I think. I have no idea what the percentage might be, not sure anyone really does. Do you realize that the insistence on live bats and balls is changing the way the game has always been played. When we have to start taking the middle out of the game we are fundamentally changing it, and not for the better. And when we feel the need to "police" this we are ruining the experience for pitchers who want to, can, actually work at it, and enjoy playing defense. What pitcher worth his salt doesn't want the opportunity to help himself and his team by making plays up the middle? |
| Nov. 27, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | You're completely right and this will shock you. I wish they never changed the game at all just like you do. Yet, if changes are going to be made for whatever reasons that invites challenges and alternatives that might be better. How do you like them apples? We agree, after all. |
| Nov. 27, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | But, we always wanted and want needed and will need a lively bat/ball combo. This is intrinsic to the enjoyment of our game and I've never talked with one player who's told me different. I think that would make it a majority opinion. |
| Nov. 27, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | if it is just 1 player total it is 1 to many.its the reason the ball specs are being lowered(altered bats),insurance companys don't care how many,all it has to be is one and one lawsuit lost for them to start hollering.and with that they will raise rates for assoc's,and we get to pay for it with higher tourney fee's. |
| Nov. 28, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Robert, you said ball specs are being lowered because of altered bats. We've all noticed and experienced the lowering of the specs over the years and the battle in the market place to keep the balls from being too lively by competitors. Now we want to know why this was necessary at all and how and why this should apply to senior softball. Remember, Terry was so moved influenced to trot out a 52x275 ball in a TOC game and again a 5 team tourney in California with the promise of more "trials" to come. First, the actual number of altered bats per age group would have to be assessed to justify the lowering in my opinion. And the lack of any control efforts, the best control efforts would increase the number of cheaters 100 fold so as not to be taken advantage of in a tournament. So if proper controls for bat cheaters then we could tell how many bona fide die in the wool cheaters we're talkin' about. Again, peer pressure is the best way to do this and monster stiff penalties for abusers would together go a long way to keep the game the way it was meant to be played. A team's bat could be confiscated after a tournament and tested professionally and have that team and all it's members banned from playing for 5 years and all it's tournament wins and all worlds removed from it's players for a meaningful period of time. Again, I think that changing the game gives into cheating instead of standing up to and against it for what it is. The righteous act of defiance would unite the faithful of the community who are in the majority I would hazard just like in any real society (the good are more and stronger than the bad) in a fight for definition and control of the sport. Figure out way to reward or give discounts to guys and teams who voluntarily give way to measure to check/control bats. Talk about the value of a real true champion over those who cheat to secure one. Again, a players association could go a long way to exert the right control over it's membership to insure that cheating is thwarted not rewarded (sounds like Johnny Cochrane when I say it). If it doesn't hit you must acquit. Somebody stop me. |
| Nov. 28, 2009 stick8 1991 posts | Einstein you have to be the most passionate poster-perhaps senior player on here regarding the specs of the bats and balls!! Suppose for some odd reason ultra 2's and other similar bats where not allowed and the balls were dumbed down across the board what percentage of senior players would cease playing in your estimation? |
| Nov. 28, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | altered bats are not the only reason,just one.bats are to hot now a days for the present ball,and past one.that is another reason,insurance companys don't want us using them as then they are more suspectable to haveing to pay out on claims.its like when they pushed for the seat belt law back in the day. why do you think ASA has thier test on bats so that they never reach 98 mph when broke in.it used to be that a bat could test at 98 mph before it was broke in. usssa has had thier test changed so that the whole barrell is tested not just the center of the barrell,which can be different than the sweet spot of the bat.usssa also tests thier bats at tourney's with a compression tester and if they compress to easy they are not allowed to be used. senior bats use the old 1.2 test,which can be easily got around. its like the car industry,we want fast cars,the auto makers make them,we buy them,but we have speed limits,so whats the use.also if we get tickets/have accidents, our insurance goes up. stick i doubt that many would stop playing,i know i wouldn't.i play ASA ball,and like it,how dumbed down for equipment can you get. |
| Nov. 28, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Stick my good man. You ask great questions. I know in California if the balls went south and because the leadership of the community would take the initiative and walk off, the majority would, too. Gary Tryhorn, the hands down leader of our community is/has been adament about TD's using good balls and using our rules. If he didn't attend, we wouldn't either. Also, NCSSA sanctions and doesn't run tournaments. So that means that the TD would not get a tournament to run next time and then you could say the number would be closer to 100 per cent for non participation. I think players are much to used to rolling over for whatever admnins. care to do. Once the TD's learn we are well defined and will exert specific influence things will change dramatically and fast. We invest a ton of money to make these tournaments work and if/when we get organized we'd have a lot of power. Again, John, from Powerhouse, would be a terrific leader to begin an association of players and I would support him all the way. He's gracious, smart, loves the players and the game, understands the game, and has balls, manly, good ones, I'm sure. What else would you need? |
| Nov. 28, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Stick, I didn't answer the question. I think over a 2 year period more than half the senior players today would stop playing and investing in a game that doesn't feel or play well. They would look for alternatives like we have in NorCal or quit playing after all. And by the way, NorCal tournaments are not restricted to teams in Californis. Hmmmmmm. Again, there IS lawn bowling, isn't there. You, we, whoever, must use and promote a lively bat/ball combo to ensure the joy and ongoing investment in senior ball. The movement right now is to drive the bat/ball combo below a level that is satisfyingly fun and we should oppose it. |
| Nov. 28, 2009 salio2k Men's 60 547 posts | I think that any conversation regarding the elimination of senior bats should include a buy back. Just like the police have buybacks for guns, those that would eliminate dangerous senior bats would buy back such bats. SSUSA, SPA and others allow the 1.20 bats, therefore manufacturers make and stock these bats. What do you say to them? Perhaps we could "Grandfather" the senior bats for 10 years. I have enough to last me that long. |
| Nov. 28, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Right on Sal. We're being spun by guys trying to sell us stuff which is American and certainly not a crime but we need to get involved and exert some control to keep from having to scrap all our equipment to date to buy the new bats and balls that will be taking over and then in 2 years the new bats and balls that will take over and have to be bought, again and again and again. It's about us daring to define ourselves and what we really want and need to enjoy our game. Again, look at NCSSA and LVSSA to see how it can be done if we, the players, want and get to be involved. |
| Nov. 28, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | I could not care less what bat and ball combination is used. Gray Ultras with Titleists. Wood bats with kapok-centered Harwoods. Makes no difference to me AS LONG AS no one wants to start putting in rules that change the fundamental way the game was meant to be played. No PPRs. No screens. No silly threats of "middle wars". Let pitchers do what good pitchers enjoy, fielding the middle. |
| Nov. 28, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | i think the movement is to make the game safer(by assoc's),with bat and ball specs,not to take the enjoyment from the game.with the assoc doing this the TD's have to comply or lose out for running them. your tunnel vision has you seeing your enjoyment and not the rest of the players,there are some who like to play D,who like the strategy of hitting behind the runner,playing at 225-250' in the outfield and going to get that bloop hit,instead of sitting 10' from the fence and watching the bloop fall in for a double.it is real boring just to stand there and watch balls go over the fence constantly when they shouldn't be.lets bring back real game play and get rid of hr derby. |
| Nov. 28, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Safer based on what, Robert? That everyone is cheating seniors included? That's not my experience and the experience of most seniors I would wager. Cheating happens when guys feel they're being cheated by not being able to have fun hitting good balls with good bats. It's their insurance against having a crappy time or making a crappy showing or getting shown up and beat by guys who ARE using cheater bats. When you can't put pace on a ball the average hitter struggles because now balls that should have gotten through holes, don't and balls that should have gone into gaps, don't and balls that should have been difficult to get in front of aren't. So it's the average hitters that don't do well and not the dinkers or the strongest guys when hitting this "safer" ball. A ball that doesn't go well when center struck is counter intuitive to natural eye-hand coordination. Clatta and other great hitters say hitting the center of the ball maximizes the oppty of getting on base. Hitting a ball that doesn't go well when center struck, for me, would be so dissatisfying and painful that it would teach me, stroke by stroke over time, that hitting a ball is not in fact fun or efficient and in a very short time I could see myself not wanting to play anymore. I think playing defense is no less important with good balls and bats as with lesser ones. Defense still wins championships and big games, irrespective of the caliber of balls. The best time had by seniors this year on the majority was LVSSA where good balls and good bats prevailed, HR's were singles, no PPR and 5 run innings. There was no equalizer but there could have been without taking away from the fun. |
| Nov. 28, 2009 Stretch14 Men's 50 202 posts | We need good balls and bats. |
| Nov. 29, 2009 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | Guys I am not a home run hitter,I have played several tournaments this year,Pasadena,Baytown,Dallas,San Antonio,Georgetown,Boerne,Austin,Corpus,the World in Phoenix and then the Winter World in Las Vegas.In "all" of these tournaments,I have yet to hit,find or see "any" bad balls.....What is the big deal.everybody hits the same ball....enough said ! |
| Nov. 29, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | If you haven't gone to tournaments, 6, in the last couple of years where the balls have been meaningfully "less than" what you wanted and expected than you are lucky but not one of the majority of players in my opinion. Bat and Ball wars, threats of law suits, "talk" of safety concerns, TD's 'not so hidden' agendas and perceived "regulations" coming or about to come down the road have combined to form a Juggernaut that's been "moving" us toward restricted flight/impact balls that are not only unnecessary but will kill our game. If we were organized we would be able to exert direct force and influence against any such a movement to keep from being rolled over and ending up, "somewhere else." John, send me your address so I can send you my contribution to get a senior player association off the ground. |
| Nov. 29, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Further, let it be known, that I will have nothing to do with running or administrating any such union of players and will participate only as a member in good standing. I will, however, do all I can to help bring one into being. |
| Nov. 29, 2009 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | einsteim..if you read my above message...All I saying is the balls you always complain about.we have not seen all year.Every ball we have hit in every tournament, has been a good,period ! |
| Nov. 29, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I did read it 6 and just read it again. It looks like we don't agree. The balls this year have varied from tournament to tournament, company to company and change often with the temperature. In local tournaments I've found this the case. Worth, to Demarini, to Baden, to Stote with different levels of compression and core intended or otherwise. Most of us, as I have said MANY times have witnessed the poorer performance of balls happening steadily over the last couple of years almost across the board. |
| Nov. 29, 2009 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | einstein,that's what's good about this board......I have not had a problem with any balls all year long,or any member of my team.You say the balls have varied from tournament to tournament.......not for us,how can that be?Are you playing in a lot of different tournaments than our team?World in Phoenix,no problem,Winter World in Vegas, NO PROBLEM.Go figure. |
| Nov. 29, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, If the ball is what causes bat cheating why were they doing it in the 70's and 80's when we were hitting blue dots, red dots, t-4000, and steele balls? This is why I for one diagree with your statements. Looking forward to your answer. |
| Nov. 29, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | JOE YOUR POST,MY ANSWERS IN CAPS SO TO BE SEEN. Nov. 28, 2009 einstein Men's 50 1566 posts Safer based on what, Robert? That everyone is cheating seniors included? That's not my experience and the experience of most seniors I would wager. WELL JOE WHAT WOULD THE PROBLEM BE WITH USING ASA BAT SPECS THAN,IF SENIORS DON'T CHEAT. Cheating happens when guys feel they're being cheated by not being able to have fun hitting good balls with good bats. NO CHEATING STARTS WHEN LESS TALENTED PLAYERS TRY TO GET AN EDGE,DOESN'T MATTER WHAT ASSOC YOU PLAY IN. It's their insurance against having a crappy time or making a crappy showing or getting shown up and beat by guys who ARE using cheater bats. IF THAT IS THEIR EXCUSE TO PLAY THAN THAT IS A POOR ONE. When you can't put pace on a ball the average hitter struggles because now balls that should have gotten through holes, don't and balls that should have gone into gaps, don't and balls that should have been difficult to get in front of aren't. WHERE IS IT THAT THE AVG PLAYER SHOULD BE HITTING HR'S OR BANGING THE BALL OFF THE FENCE TO BEGIN WITH,OR SCARING A DEFENSIVE PLAYER FROM TRYING TO FIELD A HIT BALL,NONE.AN AVG PLAYER SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN AN ADVANTAGE WITH HOT EQUIPMENT.IT TAKES AWAY FROM THE BETTER PLAYER WHO DO THE WORK TO MAKE THEMSELVES BETTER THAN THE REST So it's the average hitters that don't do well and not the dinkers or the strongest guys when hitting this "safer" ball. OH WELL,THEY NEED TO WORK ON THIER GAME THAN,TO MAKE THEMSELEVES BETTER.THEY SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DO IT WITH A BAT OR BALL.ITS CALLED WORKING ON YOUR GAME,BP,FIELDING PRACTICE,ETC. A ball that doesn't go well when center struck is counter intuitive to natural eye-hand coordination. Clatta and other great hitters say hitting the center of the ball maximizes the oppty of getting on base. A CENTER STRUCK BALL IS GONNA BE A KNUCKLEBALL(AND UNLESS YOU ARE A TRUE HR HITTER THESE WILL NOT GO OUT),HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD THIS.IF YOU WANT CARRY,YOU NEED TO HIT JUST BELOW CENTER TO GET BACKSPIN.IF YOU GO JUST ABOVE CENTER YOU GET THOSE TOP SPIN CRAZY BALLS. Hitting a ball that doesn't go well when center struck, for me, would be so dissatisfying and painful that it would teach me, stroke by stroke over time, that hitting a ball is not in fact fun or efficient and in a very short time I could see myself not wanting to play anymore. OH WELL I think playing defense is no less important with good balls and bats as with lesser ones. Defense still wins championships and big games, irrespective of the caliber of balls. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE IS NONE WITH HOT EQUIPMENT,UNLESS IT IS HIT STRAIGHT AT SOMEONE,AND THEN THE FIELDER BETTER BE CAREFUL IT DOESN'T TAKE A BAD BOUNCE AND GET SERIOUSLY INJURED.THERE IS NO MORE GOING INTO THE HOLE BY THE SS,OR AN OUTFIELDER RUNNING ONE DOWN. The best time had by seniors this year on the majority was LVSSA where good balls and good bats prevailed, HR's were singles, no PPR and 5 run innings. There was no equalizer but there could have been without taking away from the fun. I THINK WE CAN STILL HAVE FUN WITH ASA SPEC EQUIPMENT,WE DON'T NEED THE DANGEROUS HOT STUFF. |
| Nov. 29, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Butch. I'm curious. How did guys cheat with bats in the 70's and 80's before double walls and composites? Just like with speeding on a freeway. If you post a speed limit you have to enforce it or it's meaningless. If we have bat standards then we have to get up the courage and caring to bust the cheaters. It doesn't matter what era they come from for when cheating is not busted or moved against it makes the guys who don't cheat, suckers, This situation is exacerbated by us and our lack of rule enforcement or human error and not human nature. It takes wanting to take a long hard look at cheating to come up with what and who's driving it instead of saying we're all cheaters which is not true and changing the game for everyone which is unfair, uncalled for and counterproductive in the long run. |
| Nov. 29, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, As I mentioned before When aluminum bats first came out there were no thin handled bats so players and even some managers took them to machine shops and had the handles turned down. Some of the players, used 35" and 36" bat length when 34" was legal limit. Later they started using things to end load the bat such as tennis balls. So now why do you think they did it? I agree it doesnt matter why they did it but it sure wasnt because of the philosphy of shitty balls so that is one excuse you can eliminate from your posts. They did it to hit the ball harder and hit home runs period. Sound familiar. Joe I'm assuming you didn't play much major ball when you were younger with that question. I do not know of any cheaters, would not accuse any one of cheating in senior ball. If any one does they will be discovered and what ever they get they deserve. It takes wanting to take a long hard look at ego maniacism and put it in its proper place. Just my thoughts |
| Nov. 29, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Also there was life before composites and double walls. LOL :) |
| Nov. 29, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | As no one truly wants to be bad Butch, and no one really wants to cheat. A true cheater would be ostracized or punished by any real community. People cheat for a reason and it usually is because they think others are cheating and they don't want to get punked. The key is taking a deep breath and rolling up our sleeves and be willing to do whatever we can and is reasonable to stop/catch cheaters just like speeders on a freeway. You don't keep making cars safer and safer until they turn into bubble tanks to deal with cheaters. We don't change our whole game and sacrifice the rightful enjoyment of others to deal with cheaters. It's not right, doesn't work and in terms of senior softball will back fire as more players leave the game. |
| Nov. 29, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, I guess I have more faith in people because most of the people I know would not go out and shave their bat because they just played someone that beat them and they thought just because 8 of the 10 guys used the same bat or when a home run was needed they went to their bag and got a different bat out the bat may have been shaved. If someone has that way of thinking and he gets his bat shaved he is a cheater and knows he is a cheater If a guys hits a ball 450' and the other person only hits it 350' and he believes the other guy is using a shaved bat and goes and gets his bat shaved he is a cheater. In both examples they wanted to cheat because the bat didn't shave its self. Once again get rid of the ego maniacs that would do any thing to win or hit the ball the farthest no matter who or what it may damage. Joe my friend this is just softball. There are other aspects that are more important. Anyone that knows me will tell you I love to win as much as anyone but the friends we make and the times after and during the game is what we will have to remember long after softball is over. I understand what you are saying but with the attitute I will not be punked under any circumstances doesnt belong in our game of softball. So in my heart of hearts I believe there is very few cheaters in our game today. |
| Nov. 29, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Thanks, Butch. I liked our conversation. We need to move against bat cheaters it will straighten everything out. And I believe with you that after some situational remedies there are and will remain very few cheaters in our game not enough to change bat/ball standards and deprive the rest of us of enjoying the game we love to play. |
| Nov. 30, 2009 Johnny Hose Men's 50 73 posts | Joe, Thanks for the promo, you're killin me. On your discussion, I would like to add my Radical thoughts. I am so against altered bats that I get really worked up about it. I think everyone should be held responsible for his/her actions... whereever. I hit a pitcher in league play from my batted ball into his eye orbit. It first hit his glove extended out above his head, then glanced to his face. Needless to say, he had major surgery the next day. Two weeks later, he called the sports office to find out what bat I had used. I think that he was OK in asking, but two weeks late. I think if any question of my using an altered bat was raised it should be at the time of the incident. I would love to see umpires remove any doubt by comfiscating both the BAT and the BALL at the time of the injury. This would place the burden of the injury and the costs accrued on that individual that chooses to alter the equipment, including the ball manufacturer that chooses to juice up the balls. Also, I have in my posession a formula that was acquired on the internet, anyone can get it. I had it in my mind that I was going to catch one of these bats being used. It is almsost impossible to do without destroying the bat. In fact, the lable manufacturer for some of the MAJOR bat companies run thousands more lables than will be sold to the bat companies, just for internet sales to altered bat producers and/or anyone else that want to change the name on their bat. In summation, You and I love the game, along with most of the people on this board. With healthy thoughts and discussions, the cheaters know we're on to them. Let it be known and just maybe we will steer someone into doing the right thing. Have a great holiday, ya all. |
| Nov. 30, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey John. John for president. How's that for a promo and tell me where to send my 20 bucks so we can have some real representation. Thanks, again, John for the oppty to play in Vegas. |
| Nov. 30, 2009 Johnny Hose Men's 50 73 posts | Joe, Not just me, Burbank too. Had a great time. As far as the PA... it's too early and I try not to use this message board to promo it, as you can tell. I thank you for the support, but still need a feasability study with web site $ and other legalities like non profit corp and such. Should know by January. Talk wit ya soon. |
| Nov. 30, 2009 Just -a-base Hitter Men's 60 12 posts | There is no room for cheaters in senior softball.We are using the hot bats, best balls and if you need to cheat in senior softball something must be really wrong.The fence is still 300ft. |
| Dec. 2, 2009 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Just a Base Hitter, There is no room for cheaters period. If they cheat at our game they will cheat at life in general. IMO, we need to police the cheaters ourselves, if we know a team mate has a alter bat or even worse is using an enhancing substance we should address it from within. If the boot is necessary, so be it. |
| Dec. 2, 2009 stick8 1991 posts | One way to help curb cheating is have a bat compression machine on site and require every player to go thru a bat check before their first game. Also if a guy drills a pitcher the bat should be taken out and inspected by the director(s). If players know this going in they may think twice about cheater bats. |
| Dec. 2, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | stick, that is a horrible idea on so many levels. One, why are pitchers valued anymore than any other position. Two, at what point is it the fault of the fielder for getting hit? Didn't they have a glove? Aren't they the one who missed the ball? Three, are you paying for the compression machine? I would not pay higher fees for one. Four, only cheaters hit balls hard? Sorry, but that just wasn't very well thought out. |
| Dec. 2, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Gary, Slow down on the horrible. You might not be aware that a word like that and saying his idea wasn't very well thought out can trigger a personal reaction of self defense. I don't prefer Sticks remedy but I like his idea and that he's thinking and contributing to all of us. I know you mean well, Gary and that you're a good person and want to help out. I'm just trying to help out, too. |
| Dec. 2, 2009 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Fine. I wasn't trying to say stick is horrible, but I just don't like the idea. As I have said, I don't care what equipment is used though you know I don't get why seniors need to have special bats. I just don't want to see anymore rule changes to accommodate them. |
| Dec. 2, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I would totally agree with you Gary except for 2 reasons. We've already bought the bats and don't want to shell out new/more money for different/new ones. And second, if they kept the balls good and lively like the old Blue dots which were probably hotter than their specs we could use any bat. Ever hit a really good old blue dot level ball with a maple or hot wooden bat. Goes like a bullet. I think Gary, there's a movement, witting and unwitting, to take the level of liveliness in our bat/ball combo down below where it's fun and enjoyable for insufficient reasons. Lively bat/ball combo forever I always say. Happy Holidays to you both, Gary and Stick. |
| Dec. 2, 2009 stick8 1991 posts | Dirty, allow me to address your questions, which are all fair and legit. This is strictly from what I understand of the USSSA mind set: 1)I'm not certain if they value pitchers any more than other infielders because I saw a third baseman foolishly playing inside the bag and get drilled right in the chin. The ump took the bat away. 2)Yes the fielder has a glove & most times it's their fault they miss it. 3)Where we're at USSSA has paid for it 4)No Let me illustrate an example of what this can do. In the fall I was umping a pretty high level house league game--mostly B and A players gettng ready for their world tourneys. A batter drilled this pitcher right in the kneecap. He was done for the night and as it turned out, the year. By our rule, I took the bat and gave it to my UIC for inspection. The process took two weeks because he sent it out of town to be tested. The bat passed the test so it was fine. In the interim not only the player but the whole league was wondering what was going to happen. It seemed as if everyone was questioning me about it. This is the idea, put it players minds that we have a process to get rid of cheaters. I will concede it has flaws and is not perfect but it's a step in the right direction. Since we'll have a machine on site next year for testing, the process won't be as time consuming. |
| Dec. 2, 2009 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Way to go Stick. I have questions about the "machine" but I praise and support you guys doing something to deal with cheaters rather than changing the game for everyone. Way to go, Bro. Keep us posted on its progress. |
| Dec. 3, 2009 stick8 1991 posts | Will do Einstein. BTW, do you know the difference between a car and a golf club? |
| Dec. 3, 2009 Paco13 424 posts | Stick, let’s assume that the bat was shaved...whatever an altered bat. Now what happens to the player and perhaps the team gets suspended for a year or life...depending on the Asn. Nothing else the injured player will have a very difficult time getting any money from the hitter...I spoke with a good friend of mine (lawyer) and according to him...it is very difficult case to prove, because there is no intent to hurt somebody, the intent of the hitter is to hit the ball 500'. Without intent there is no case. (a regular bat can cause the same damage as in UR case) This is a very interesting issue; it will most likely be a landmark case that could go all the way to Supreme Court. That it is even if the hurt player was to die. The machine does not prove anything...a well broken in bat could have lost enough weight to be considered altered. I believe Trump spoke about this previously. I do also ump, and I personally do not remove a bat everybody that somebody hits a pitcher or somebody gets hurt with hit ball. You as the ump can not take somebody’s property without a warrant; however, you can ask for the bat and is up to the player to voluntarily give it to you. If he gives U the bat a proper chain of custody must be maintained through out the process once that chain is broken there goes the case. In general is not as simple as you guys might think. JMO |
| Dec. 3, 2009 stick8 1991 posts | Interesting points Paco13. In this case if the bat was found to be altered or shaved then the game is forfeited, if it's a tourney the team is booted out,if it's a league the team loses the game, I believe the manager is suspended for 1 year and the player is suspended for I believe 2 years for all USSSA sanctioned events. Your correct, it would be a tough case if the injured player filed lawsuit for the cost of injuries. But there are some pretty good slip and fall lawyers out there (I used to work for one) who could, if they choose to, make a go of it. That being said the company that makes the bat could press charges against the offending player. I do know easton has a clause that specifies if any of their bats are physically altered, shaved or tampered with they reserve the right to pursue legal action against the offending parties involved. All the machine does is measure compression which the lower limit allowable in USSSA is 200 lbs. If a bat tests at 190 or even as low as 180 it's likely not altered or shaved & simply deemed illegal and not allowed--nothing happens to the player. Most likely it's a bat that has a lot of swings on it and well broken in. There was a player who drilled a pitcher in a local USSSA tourney and had his bat taken away. It tested at 140. In that case it raised a lot of red flags & the association cut the bat open and found it was completely shaved on the inside. He's gone for two years. When you say umps cannot remove bats without a warrant you are technically correct. But I will tell you that is our house rule that we've adapted in our leagues and tournaments, it's not a national rule. Most players know that. Don't forget if the opposing team wants to protest a bat the ump can remove it from play and examine it and make determinations whether it warrants testing or not. |
| Dec. 3, 2009 Paco13 424 posts | Stick, Completely agree with U. Another very interesting point the protest usually cost money...not refundable...that is why there are not as many protests. Another point if the bat is open it could be ruined or not...who pays for it especially if it not altered...TD are not as willing to do it just because of the cost. Bottom line cheating should not be allowed, but cheaters will be cheaters as bad as it sounds is part of the game and we have to live with it. I truly hope our seniors that used to cheat do not do it anymore... |
| Dec. 3, 2009 tattooball 774 posts | If you ues the compression machine on a senior bat not 1 will pass after 25 swings. Every bat wether it was stock or altered would not pass. |
| Dec. 3, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | hey trumpball ,would you know where about a shaved bat would test at. by the way where do the senior bats start at. someone else also said that the big boys go past the GTG mark in about 50-75 swings on their u-trip bats that are stock. about the senior bats testing no good after 25 hits mmm. they had some BS at the usssa tourney(major's) this yr,that don d done to the team there(can't remember which one)that was playing his son's team,by useing the bat test during the game after a hr,it came back below specs(stock bat by the way)and he suspended the player for the rest of the tourney,so the team packed up and left.i had thought the bats were supposed to be tested before start of the tourney and be GTG for the rest of that tourney.he didn't test before hand. |
| Dec. 4, 2009 stick8 1991 posts | Correct Paco13. Different leagues and tournaments have differing fees. It used to be approx $300 (the cost of a bat) because if it was cut open and found to be OK then that money would go to the purchase of a new bat. If the bat was found to be altered I'm not sure if the fee was returned or not. Before the machine and our rule protesting bats didn't happen too often. |
| Dec. 4, 2009 stick8 1991 posts | Good point trumpball. I should have specified that I was referring to non-senior bats in this discussion. Obviously the criteria for determining an acceptable compression level on senior bats would be different. I'm not certain what that would be. |
| Dec. 4, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | stick8, If you take the players bat and it takes 2 or 3 weeks to get results what is that player supposed to do for a bat? Does he shell out another $200 and then finds out bat was legit does the league or tourney director reimburse him? What if he can't afford a new bat when he has done nothing illegal? Does he have to quit playing or borrow someone elses bat which will lessen the life of his friends bat? Just some thoughts. |
| Dec. 4, 2009 tattooball 774 posts | USSSA uses 1.20 bats, these bats are tested across the entire barrel, They also get tested after they are broken in to be certified. A well broken in USSSA is not allowed in play once it goes below 220 comp. Many stock bats reach 170 range before they break. These are completly stock bats that have been hit often. many get lower than that. Shaved bats can get as low as 90. If the coralation between 1.20 and compression is 220 than you can see that bats break in way beyond the 1.20 bpf. senior bats start around 260-270 but they only have to pass the test on one spot of the barrel. They are also not tested after any swings,0,nada. Senior bats very quickly get to a compression of 170, they also get to below 125,many below 110. So you think you are using a 1.20 bat because the label says it is but in reality they are well above 1.25 and many getting over 1.30. Happy Holidays |
| Dec. 4, 2009 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | thanks kevin,i was wondering how lo they(senior and shaved bats)could get,i'm still a little skeptical about this test,i think it should be a touch lower,190 maybe. |
| Dec. 5, 2009 stick8 1991 posts | Butch17, fair and legit questions. 1)It may appear insensitive but what a player does for a bat while waiting 2 or 3 weeks is not our concern. 2)He certainly can buy another bat. If the protested bat passes the test he gets it back. He's not reimbursed for any bat he may have purchased in the interim. 3)Presuming your referring to the 2-3 week waiting period for the bat to be tested it's not conclusive that he did or didn't do anything illegal. If he can't afford a new bat that is not our concern. If he doesn't own a back up bat he would have to borrow someone elses bat. In the unlikely event he can't get anyone to loan him a bat I suppose he's SOL. |
| Dec. 5, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Thanks stick8, If that is the case you need tester on site. You worked for one of those lawyers that may file suit for keeping a guy from playing because you have detained his equipment. lol |
| Dec. 6, 2009 stick8 1991 posts | Butch17, we will have a tester on site starting next year which I beleive USSSA has paid for. In fact it's being considered to have all players be required to have their bats checked before they play--like they used to do before world tournaments. Like anything that's introduced, I'm sure they'll be glitches & shortcomings in how this works but the main purpose is to put it players minds that we're taking extra steps to get rid of loaded bats and bat cheaters. BTW, the questions you asked above can also apply to someone who simply breaks, dents or cracks their bat. |
| Dec. 6, 2009 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Stick8 There is a small difference between breaking denting or cracking ones own bat or giving it up to a stanger or organization. If someone uses my bat and cracks, dents, or breaks it they buy me a new one. |
| Dec. 6, 2009 LP 317 posts | about the balls here in texas we hit the trump 44--375 its a good all around ball, used it in vegas and phoenix. so i dont see or have a problem with SSUSA'S ball choice. then theres the bat problem you all bring up. a cheater will get caught eventually then he should be done with senior ball. if someone is a cheater and even if his team wins its not a real victory. i know some guys have to boost there ego's but it would be a hollow win, because there would be no pride, or your own ability for a win . |
| Dec. 6, 2009 stick8 1991 posts | That's true Butch17. I should have referenced it to refer to the questions you asked -- "what if he can't afford a new bat and has done nothing illegal"? and "does he have to quit playing or borrow a friends bat that will lessen the life of his friends bat?" |
