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Discussion: No change in the balls for SSUSA for 2010

Posted Discussion
Dec. 12, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
No change in the balls for SSUSA for 2010
I was assured by SSUSA that the ball specs for 2010 will not be changed
from the specs used for this year,
44x375 Stote ball.
Thanks, Dave and Terry,
for keeping a standard we senior softball players care very much about.
Teams will now be able to make plans
more securely about the coming year
and which tournaments to attend.
Dec. 13, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
I'm making another comment
because this is really important
to all of us in the senior softball community, going forward.
It means we are being listened to when
SSUSA says they won't go below the present bat ball standards we have experienced with them and that is
the Trump Stote 44x375 ball and senior approved bats.
It means our investments in equipment
to date are being respected and protected at least for now.
It means they're actually "getting us"
to some degree and the game
we love to play.
These are good signs and
worth noting and praise
given all the stuff
flying around these days.

Dec. 13, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
On the subject of pitcher safety
it is my view and the view of almost
all the players I play with and against
that when HR's are outs,
like in the 40 and over game
that balls will go through the middle
much more.
Leave HR's as walks
and almost all of bullets
that would have gone
through the middle, won't.
The unwritten rule of "not" ripping
the pitcher will be
activated, enforced by US, the players,
and prevail.

I don't like making protective equipment mandatory but in order to keep the ball/bat combo lively
which is more important to me
and our game, I would consider it
an option.

So, I think if we stay with SSUSA/LVSSA
grade bat/ball combo,
leave the HR's as singles
and make at least masks
and maybe shin guards mandatory
to cover
unintentional bullets that might
go through the box
this might satisfy most to all
our present day, major concerns
without jeopardizing the fun and liveliness of the game
most of us love to play.

Also, that could set up a pitching DH
so the pitcher doesn't eat up
all the time like they do now
putting their stuff on and delaying
the game when they've been on base
or up at the plate.
That could also back door
free defensive subbing which really could find a place
in competitive senior ball.

Dec. 13, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
As I said before, they are going to use the same ball as last year. You just recieved a bad rumor. :)
Dec. 13, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
Enough about bats , balls, delaying games because of having to get redressed. Maybe we should be like hockey and have a pitcher all geared up in case the original pitcher is on base, kinda like pulling the goalie!

Joe I'm sorry but if you were to do a study I would bet you a new Miken that most pitchers get hit when there are still home runs left.

Just say what you mean you dont like home runs being outs. We had our pitcher either hit or just missed several times last year with home runs left and the comment was "my power is to center and I just missed it".
Dec. 13, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
As I see it in SS/USA we are going to use senior bats Trump Stote 44/375 ball

Mandatory equipment for the pitcher is a no. Optional yes.

Joe this is not a sport where people get paid, so I dont beleive that there are a lot of pitchers around that dont want to hit.

Here is one you havent thought of yet,
every team must have 14 players and every one has to play at least 3 innings in the field and bat at least once. Hope this helps.

What do you think Mike B. you want to come and pitch for me but I'll get somebody to hit for you. :)
Dec. 13, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
You and I, Butch,
experience a disconnect
that I'm grateful the senior community
doesn't realize with SSUSA/LVSSA
about the importance
of the bat/ball combo.
Also, we are equally disconnected
about what happens on teams
when HR's are outs.
Again, when HR's are outs it forces
open the middle to the most competitive
players to ensure they don't
hurt their team's chance of winning
by "using up" home runs.
When home runs are precious
the best, most powerful hitters
don't resist using
the middle of the field
which is often
the best/easiest way
to get on base.
When HR's are not outs
hitters can take hard,
confident, and full swings
and not worry about hurting their
teams chances of winning and
an unwritten rule of
"staying off the pitcher"
is active and enforced by us,
the players.

I'm comfortable showing these
well defined differences
between how you and I see
the senior game
being played and let members of the senior softball community figure out for themselves
what's really going on in and around our sport.

Dec. 13, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
well there ya go again joe,good hitters stay out of the middle b/c hrs are left,don't think so.if they are that good they should be able to do it when hrs are gone.when you are taking that full swing you are more suspect of going middle as you are not looking to control your swing but just blast away.i have never ,ever seen having hrs left elimanate the middle.players are going middle regardless of hrs avail to them.hell i have even seen pitchers get hit in hr derby's(when no screen avail)when thats all they are trying to hit,mistakes happen when you are going for the big swing.a more controlled swing gets you your direction and should be keeping you out of the middle.

so for the middle not being hit with hrs left,i have to throw the BS flag on that.
Dec. 13, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

You are right. You beleive one way and I another. I must have missed your response on the new Miken bat bet.

I believe you use a bat, ball, and glove to play our game. You think you just need a bat and ball, some one else can use the glove(free defensive subbing)

Some of our differences are you want DH for pitcher I don't, You want home run derby I don't. You want hotter balls, I say Trump Stote 44/375 is hot enough. You say bat and ball combo is more important to you than safety of pitcher and I don't think so.

I understand that very few games reached the home run limit last year that is why I don't think you want to take my bet.

Now I'm very comfortable showing the softball community our differences.
Did I miss anything?

Dec. 13, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

You don't need to tell me what happens when HR is out. I have been playing many years where there were home run limits such as Major and A in younger years, 35& over, 40& over, 45& over.

Guess what they had home run limits and no serious injuries because of it. I have been hit, have hit pitchers, seen pitchers get hit a lot more when there were still home runs left.
Dec. 13, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Of course,
Butch because guys were saving
the home runs to use, if necessary,
later in the game.
When you make home runs outs,
right from the beginning
homers are precious and guys will take the middle who would NEVER do so
to to keep from using them up.
HR hitters are told "no home runs
unless there's at least 2 guys on".
So pitchers WILL get hit at/through
more with home runs still left on the board from the first inning on
because more innings will be played
in the "homers as precious" condition.
"Save the homers till the end."
is often heard in the dugout.

When HR's are made outs, Butch
more hitters will take the middle
by a great measure all through the game
then when home runs are walks.
Are you still saying
that from your experience
that this isn't true?
Dec. 13, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

I don't agree. It has more to do with location of the pitch and the way the defense is set.SS playing 5-6 hole of course middle 2nd playing 3-4 hole of course middle. Are you telling me if SS is standing 2 steps from 2nd and 2nd baseman is two steps from 2nd, outfield shading middle the hitter is still going middle to save home run.

Pitcher throw inside with above defense they are going middle no way will they do that. Five man infield go middle to save home run I doubt it.

Joe I'm sorry but I don't beleive any player would intentionally hit a ball at the pitcher to save a home run.Not even you. JMO
Dec. 13, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
I think players are more likely to go middle with two strikes. What kind of rule would fix this? Just a thought.
Dec. 14, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're a man, Butch.
It takes balls, the good kind,
to have a real disagreement,
to truly reveal what one feels and thinks
and contribute to others learning about what's going on.
We disagree and that's OK.
Happy holidays.

Dec. 14, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
butch, the only rule that might change that would be to eliminate the fouling out with two strikes rule. We did not use it for years, not sure why it came into play more recently. My guess was to speed up the game, but I don't remember being plagued by two hour games in the 70s when I started.
Dec. 14, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

You are right we agree to disagree in a

friendly way and that is the way it is supposed to be.
Happy Holidays

Dirty you are right and Happy Holidays to you.
Dec. 14, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
like i've been saying the middle has always been open,regardless of hrs left.yes butch there has always been hr limits(except for the real early yrs).the only unlimited were the big boys div's.A on down(young div's)has always had limits.when i started playing senior, AA used to be a no hr div,AAA was a 2b for all hit over,we didn't start getting hr's till the M why the big deal now.
also on the 2 strikes foul,it used to be that guys would stand up there and foul ball after ball off till they got thier perfect pitch for them,reason they started the 3rd strike foul out.
i also would tell a pitcher to be on thier toes if i had 2 strikes as i wasn't gonna try and do a line and foul out,most would thank ya for the warning,but still throw ya inside,LOL.
Dec. 14, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Just like in the larger society
all it takes for wrong-headed/errant stuff to happen is for good men
to do nothing.
The antidote for any and all societies
including the Senior Softball Community
or SSC, is for all players
to be informed and involved as standards and important decisions
are being made
that will affect the direction and/or
well being of the group.
I think that's been made significantly clear to date and
will need positive reinforcement as we attempt to move down the road better together.
By being MORE involved and included
at every and any level
top to bottom and bottom to top
we all will be, no doubt,
better served.
Dec. 14, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
mad dog,

I was one of those foul ball hitters before they changed the rule.

Happy Holidays my friend.
Dec. 14, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
butch,we used to hate your type,as we would have to wait for the balls to get back to keep going,LOL.i think its prolly the reason the time limits were instituted,also.
Dec. 14, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Here's a couple more while we're at it.
Butch, how about:
-Lively bat/ball combo forever.
-HR's as walks after equalizer
will protect pitchers automatically
-Free defensive subbing
-Website used to teach, poll, vote
by members for rules and standards
-1 and 1 count
-no time limit once double elim starts
-standard mercy rule
-extend mound back 6 more feet
-one courtesy runner per inning
-only bat 10 in major/major plus
-sliding OK across home plate/line
-larger plate/mat
-no batter's box violation
-better balls than 44x375Stote Ball
when going to 325 foot fields
-Clock between innings to get
on/off field
-lifetime ban for bat cheaters
-automatic ejection for any player
disrespecting self or any
fan, official, player or umpire
-associations should keep player stats
and make awards to players that end up
on top of selected categories
-70 foot bases
...just to name a few.

Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
Joe here is my thoughts

Your idea of ball is different than mine. Home run limits. NO free defensive subs. OK with no time limit if YOU will pay the extra $200 to $250
they are going to charge for entry fee.

Website good but if Assoc. loses money YOU will reimburse them so we can continue to play.

NO ppr (I knew we could agree on something). 5 runs per inning.1 and 1 is good. Should be able to slide at all bases. Must stay in the box as long as you are touching line.

44/375 Stote ball nothing hotter.

Keep your own stats only at worlds should the Assoc keep them. 70 foot bases good. Bat cheaters I agree.

Bat as many as you want play 11 defensive players.
Joe I think it would be easier for you to start your own Assoc. than try to change all the stuff you want for an existing Assoc.

You need to realize that a lot of what you propose, IMO, would not work well with Major, AAA, and AA such as hotter balls, unlimited home runs or walks after limit, 1 runner per inning. Some are just nuts only bat 10, free defensive subs.With the existing rules you can only bat 10 if you choose. If you want unlimited time limit in tourney play ASA, NSA they already have it. You cant have hot balls hot bats and unlimited time with out it affecting cost of entry fee. Do you think maybe it is because of the bats and balls?
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
I think you have forgotten this is just a game. Do we want to win? Yes. Will the sun come up the next day if we lose? Yes. Do most of us want to pay
$1000.00 entry fee so we can have unlimited home runs and no time limit?
I don't. I would rather play in more tourneys with the extra money.Just some reasonable thoughts.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
butch, why would no time limits require higher entrance fees? What additional would have to be covered?

butch, the sun ALWAYS comes up. Heck, it came up after Pearl Harbor and on 9/12/01.

Joe, to some of your points.
- if guys cannot hit a big ball moving slowly let them play checkers.
- NO courtesy runners. If you can get to first, you can get the rest of the way. This is only softball.
- The mat/plate is plenty big. Actually it should be abolished. Strike zones were meant to be vertical, NOT horizontal. And guys 5'7" should NOT have the same size zone as guys 6'8". That goes against everything in softball, and baseball for that matter.
- I totally agree with doing something to get guys on and off the field faster. I was always taught to hustle between the lines, but I guess a lot of guys never got that lesson.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

A couple years ago ss/usa said okay to no time limits, open innings but they were going to charge every team an extra $200 for added expense such as balls (after limit singles) and umpires. I dont blame an umpire for not wanting to get same pay for a 2 hr. game vs. a game that should be done in a little more than an hour. One game was 60 to 20 and I'm sure it lasted a while.

With the present ball and bats it is common sense that with unlimited runs,
unlimited home runs and or singles after limit the games last longer.

I find it odd that someone would want a clock on inning changes but advocate for hitting 20 or more balls out of the park by one team as okay.

With the added cost of that rule it would have cost us about $1600. that is about the cost of entry fees in 3 or 4 tourneys.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
We played 8 tourneys but if they would have kept the extra charge it would have been 4 or 5.
I would rather play 8 tourneys.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 65
4549 posts
Some senior ASA events do have time limits, usually 1 hr 10 min.
If you played in ca up noth, that 1600 will go even further.
Dirty, I don't feel there really is a Strike ZONE per se, only has height limits and plate\matt area. This isn't modified slo pitch which has both or any other game. If your referring to the Protection crap zone as it were, it's the pitchers head height. Just hope it isn't found.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary.
Right on about getting
on and off the field.
I would also favor a strike zone added
to normal size mat which would make it more challenging for the hitters
with less balls comfortably scorched
through the box.
SPA has played unlimited time games
once double elim starts for years now
and I've played some of best, most memorable games of my senior career
with them.
Hitting a ball over the fence
for a single would take about the same time to record or should
as a regular single and if time
has to be spent on something
priority would go to where we seniors
have the MOST fun and that would be
swinging out and hitting the ball
hard and fast and over a fence.
Butch, you talk a lot about how much
stuff would cost, like cost is paramount and the bottom line.
If the cost of playing jeopardizes
the fun of playing, then it won't be worth the investment and time.
Gary's right.
Let's go back to basic, un-changed rule
softball with good balls and bats
and let us have some fun
but if you're gonna let things be changed they can't be done
if it means losing or compromising
the joy or fundamental experience
of playing the game.
Lively bats and balls forever
and if you play to win the game
free subbing is much better
than batting more than 10.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, how about no mat, no free subbing/platooning, and you only bat 10? You know, like it was when we first started loving this game.

But, to be honest with you, while I don't want to see wood bats and Harwoods back either, I think we can all live with Utrip bats and 44 COR balls. Let the home run hitters hit home runs, and the rest of the guys just continue to hit like they did in their 20s and 30s. If you couldn't hit it 300 then, why should you be able to now?

And for goodness sake, NOTHING that even resembles a PPR, or a friggin screen on my field. :)
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 65
4549 posts
You can count on one thing, much will be changing in time... how much time? 1-3 years on the outside is my guesstimate.

I got that from physic Cleo out of FL... Long since put out of business, she was a scammer... err accurate... lol Serious on the other though.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

You are kidding with that comment about money I hope. This coming from a guy that cant go here or go play there
because somebody else will not pay for it. Talk about cost being bottom line!!

Yes I talk about costs because we spend mostly our own money not someone else. Try thinking about what was said on other posts by you before you type something like that!!!

Joe I would like for you to answer this question and please do not squirm around it like normal. How much of YOUR money did you spend for entry fees, plane tickets, rental cars, and hotel bills the last couple years? It's easy when you are spending other peoples money not to care how much it costs.

Joe I'm not complaining I'm stating facts and I will bet you a new Miken bat the MAJORITY of senior softball players are footing their own way. It is just a bat so dont fret the cost if you lose I promise I won't. Thank you in advance for your straight answer.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
If you make the pitching arc
3-12 with faking, bat 10 no subbing,
1.2 bats with what the 44x375 balls used
to be a couple of years ago
or Trumps MCT Rock 44x375 ball and
I say "let's play ball."
I have a Freak Plus that is scorching,
It's a legal 1.2 USSSA bat.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

Would love to go back to Alum. bats and blue dots. Would love to go back to unlimited arch. Neither is going to happen. No screen or PPR.

Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Butch, my good man.
We detect a distinct edge to your voice?
I thought we could agree to disagree.
Isn't that what you said
a couple of posts ago?
My arrangements with teams I play for
are my business.
And have nothing to do
with my involvement, love and investment
in senior softball then, now
or in the future which would be easy
to document and a waste of time.
Why not stick to the issues
as you said was OK with us, Butch?
I've learned my lesson about making
stuff too personal on the site
and it sounds like
you should, too.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

You responded just as I thought you would. You are the one that brought up that I'm always talking about costs and sometimes I do. You dont see it because you dont spend it like my team mates and I, as most of the teams in Senior ball do.

That was my point Joe you dont care about the $200 per tourney because you dont pay so you wouldn't care if it was $500.

So once again we agree to disagree but I think the majority of Senior Players
are beginning to see who cares about who.

You are the one that made it personal with that comment and you know it!!

If you need it to be personal I'm sure you have my e-mail and yes there was an edge to my voice but drank a cup of coffee and now I'm fine. :)

Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 65
252 posts
butch,maybe we need a salary cap lol
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

What he does is fine with me just dont try and belittle me because I answer a question with a straight answer. At least I answered the question unlike some.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
It's all part of the record now
Butch no matter what either of us
might want to say and our teammates
and fellow members can figure it out
for themselves.

Let's not make it personal, OK?
Let's agree to disagree as you said
was all right just a couple of posts
ago and we'll get along just fine.
Money issues, Butch, shouldn't change
the nature, the spirit, the essence
of us or our sport, and
shouldn't rob us of the intrinsic
enjoyment of a game we all love to play.
You can quote me on this one.
You can call it a bias if you want
but it's really how and
I think and feel.

Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

The real bottom line is we either play by the rules set forth by each association or we dont.

I choose to play in most associations, by the rules including bats and balls,
because i enjoy playing softball.

If a person chooses to not attend because of them so be it.

We can suggest and ask but not demand they change the rule or in your case most of the rules :).

Yes I look at expense because I beleive
that it effects 95% of the guys playing senior ball. How many times do you hear teams say because of expense they can only go here or there. If it was a little less expensive maybe we could have more teams to play maybe not. I do know higher costs wont attract them.

I'm not selective when it comes to softball I look at the whole picture which includes ALL divisions Major Plus, Major, AAA and AA.

I'm not going to call it bias we will let all of the players decide if it is or not.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, I will give you 6' to unlimited, but nothing less than 6'. The name of the game is SLOW-PITCH, and to me 3' is just not slow-pitch. But that might just be me.

As far as faking, I much more enjoy seeing what I can get away with than making it legal and letting everyone do it. It would take the gamesmanship out of the postion, and since so many want to take the pitcher's right to field the ball away what would be left?

Any legal Utrip bat would be fine with me, and sure some are hotter than others. But nothing "special" just for seniors. Let's get our pride back and use what everyone else is.

butch, if Joe can get guys to pay his way more power to him.

Joe, I know you are aware but you do need to be somewhat sensitive to the fact that a very small number of players get sponsored like you seem to.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
Dirty like I said more power to him and the others. I've had my offers.

I just dont like someone telling me not to care about money when I know so many that spend their own and the person telling me that doesnt spend any.


We tried that different rules for Major Plus and it did not get off the ground. The only way it would work is like when we were younger they started the Super Major Division. We could make Major Plus a division that had NO force ups, strictly play by choice and if you choose to play then you are there for the year. Then maybe you could
get the rules changed and pay the higher fee and not effect the other divisions. Just a thought.
Dec. 15, 2009
Men's 60
547 posts
butch17..........Your post about playing by the rules set forth by each association is right on! Here, at SSUSA we do not use special bats or balls. Players should check the rules and decide for themselves whether to play or not. They should not demand changes to abide by other association rules. If I want to play USSSA or ASA, I can. I too play with the young ones, using ASA rules. No problem at all.
Dec. 16, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Guys,
No one is forcing any association
or members to do anything.
We're talking about
what we think and feel
is really going on or should be going on
which is important feedback for any association that would want to stay
connected and relevant with its constituents.
We all are the senior softball
We, the players, play, suffer and invest
so others can have something to do and make a living off US...
And we have a right to say what we want
and need and expect to get from it all.

Look how prominent the players association is in baseball or any other professional support because
without the players input,
perspective and needs
the game is NOT the game at all but
some vehicle for advertizers,
owners, retailers, TV and manufactureres.
We need to be directly involved
with our own destiny for not only our
well being but for the well being
of our sport.
And everyone better wake up
and smell the coffee before we all
end up somewhere else.

Restricted flight softball
will NEVER fly with us.
That's way more than just my opinion
and for a ton of reasons
no matter how safe we make the ball.

Can you imagine if they changed
the ball in the major leagues
because they found the severity index
for pitchers getting concussions
and batters being hit by pitchers causing broken bones was too high?
C'mon, man.
That's the essence,
the soul of the game we play
since little league.
Softball is a version of baseball.
And owes itself to the game we all loved
and couldn't play enough of growing up
and the fundamental character of both are really very close and
needs to stay that way.

There were kids when we were young
that were afraid to get hit
with the ball and that showed us
who we were and weren't -
who we wanted and needed to be.

I think it's unmanly to be quiet
when important stuff is going on
that needs to be addressed for the well
being of all.
Some of us think it's the other
way around.
That silence while guys whine and suffer
about wrong stuff is going down
is the "manly" way to be.
That would be the case
if those running the show
saw it and us that way and went out of their way to make us happy
but that just doesn't work
in 2009 America and it's usually
the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

So, let's all get more involved
instead of less.
Let's get more of us involved
instead of less.
All learning and figuring out
and expressing what WE think
and feel and want to see in senior ball.

Almost all revolutions were
attempts to get societies to come
back to the people and principles
from the corruption, divergence
and changes that often come in any successful society.
There's no need for "revolution"
or another association if the
associations in existence
stay WITH us and true
to the game in us
as we all try to move down the road
of Senior softball better together.

Happy holidays, one and all.

Dec. 16, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
hey guys one expense i haven't seen thrown out,is the extra time you'll need for field rental for unlimited time games.
also i think ss-usa is privately owned,ya don't like thier rules go someplace else.
butch i would also say that 95% of all senior players pay thier way.maybe we can have just a sponsered div and let all the ego maniacs play there.
Dec. 16, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
It just seems to me that there are so many rules now that we did not use to have mainly because of the souped-up bats. When I started playing 36 years ago there was no concern with games, or innings, being too long. So there were no time or run limits. And for the life of me I don't remember many 2 hour games.

What else can the long games that everyone is fearing today be attributed to besides the bats?
Dec. 16, 2009
Men's 55
237 posts
Dirty you are correct about 36 years ago
If we went back to the game the way it was 36 years ago we would only need two Classes ASA had Major and A
We could have AAA and Major 2 homeruns in AAA 6 Homeruns in Major

But we would have to hit with Bombats and use RF 80 cork center balls

I do not think either divisions would run out of Homeruns very often
No run limits or time limits most games would be over in 50-60 minutes cause the games would be 8-6 and 12-8 very often

Sometimes you might even get to see a 2-1 game. And guess what we had as much fun playing those as the 24-23 games that take an hour and 45 minutes to play

I am also a realist knowing this will never happen but those really were the good old days, when nobody cried about somebody being out of class

You brought 10 I brought 10 and we played the game, with the better team that day winning
Dec. 16, 2009
Men's 65
4549 posts
Garocket, by any chance do you live in Vegas?
Dec. 16, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
I accept that there are advancements in technology in almost all walks of life. But for the life of me I just don't get why seniors need special bats, and yea guys they are special or else players under 50 would be allowed to use them.

When we have to start changing, or even thinking of changing, many facets of the game to accommodate them it has probably gone too far.

But Garocket, I do like your post and perspective.
Dec. 16, 2009
Omar Khayyam
1243 posts
Garocket, I think we have finally found an ally in einstein. Here's what he said in his last post:

"Softball is a version of baseball.
And owes itself to the game we all loved
and couldn't play enough of growing up
and the fundamental character of both are really very close and
needs to stay that way.

Amen, einstein, you are coming around. The game that Garocket and I and most senior players (including you) played before the nineties was wooden or single wall bats, maybe a lively ball (the Blue Dot days), with equal emphasis on defense and base running and strategy and disciplined offense. There was admiration for the true home run hitter who could put one over the fence, but also for the shortstop with range and the fielder with speed and in the days of unrestricted arc, for the pitcher.

Yes, I played in leagues for 45 years with unlimited runs per inning, and we played and finished most games in 1:00 or so, mainly because the scores were 6 to 4, 7 to 3, and the occasional "blow out" when scores soared over 10! There was a balance of offense and defense and as einstein noted, it was very much like baseball with its low scores.

I've seen the younger guys playing today on fields with short fences in town, and a RF ball is mandated, and it looks like games from the past—balance between offense and defense (some balls are still hit out), and scores lower than senior ball, and games finishing on time without run limits.

Bring back the "game we all loved and couldn't play enough of growing up".

Dec. 17, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
That game, as I have stated an uncountable
number of times was played with the best ball and bat we could find or by
and bring and share.
Do you remember when someone had
a good ball?
We made them go get it.
When someone had a good or better bat,
we all used it.
You're good at spinning stuff OK
including you're real identity
but the level of liveliness of the bat
ball combination that you endorse
is below what we, the majority of senior players, want, need, deserve
and obviously, have gotten
and will continue to get
(think and thank SSUSA
and LVSSA)
If the bat ball combo is good enough
which means lively enough
that all by itself gives us the foundation to not cheat and go after the bat cheaters.
I think you prefer a tamer game
than I and most of the other players
I talk with in NorCal and across
the country.
There's nothing wrong with that.
We're all entitled to who we are
and at what level we want to play the game.
But, let's be clear.
If you can see playing softball
with scores of 5-3, 6-4 and 3-2
that got seven innings in an hour
we're not talking about the same game
and we disagree
which I've said all along
is OK with me(somebody stop me).
I'm with Gary and we should go back
to no rules softball with lively bats
and balls, 300 foot fences,
no home run rules
and lets' play ball.
Dec. 17, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, while the current bats really don't bother me as long as no one wants to change any of the fundamental rules because of them, I admit I am not as passionate or adamant about them as you are.

I do have one question. Given that USSSA bats are pretty good by most any standard, why do you feel that seniors should use special bats that no one else can? Isn't that a bit demeaning to seniors? I see it that way, just wondering your viewpoint.
Dec. 17, 2009
Men's 60
873 posts
You need to give the lively ball/bat issue a rest, you have become a bore with the issue. Call or email your district rep (Fran) and explain your concerns/wishes/demands to her.
I remember play in the early 70's, but I dont recall ever playing a game 5-3, 6-4, or 3-2. Our scores were the same as they are now, virtually no difference.
You continue to express the wishes of "The Majority", you Joe are not the Majority nor do you represent them, at least I cant find any evidence of this.
I have said before, you put out a lot of good thought provoking questions, I hope you keep it up. But dont try to sell dirt and manure to a farmer.
Happy Holidays Joe!


Dec. 17, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary,
We're not far away at all as it comes to be seen which is the case fundamentally between any 2
would be enemies
anywhere in the world, anytime
in history or time and space.
I have a Freak Plus I have abused
for a year now in any and all conditions
as my BP bat.
It's begun to rattle and it's as hot
now as any Ultra 2 I've ever swung
and, it's more end loaded
which makes it better.
I swung a Super Freak this past year
that was probably hotter than any Ultra 2 I've ever swung and it was more endloaded than an Ultra 2, too.
These both are acceptable
USSSA 1.2 bats.
So, the distinction between hot
USSSA standard bats and Senior bats
is not readily apparent
when they get broken in.
I speak for the majority
on some issues probably not and on others probably so.
There's no doubt in my mind
that senior players want to
and will play with a lively bat and ball combo.
There's no doubt in my mind
that most players know that pitching
becomes more dangerous when
HR's are made DBOs.
There's no doubt in my mind
that free defensive subbing is not a majority opinion for senior softball players, at least yet.
There's no doubt in my mind
that using screens is not an majority
opinion in senior softball right now.

So, I don't think speaking for the majority is necessarily a bad thing
or incorrect.
It owes to whether it's true or not.
Again, if we or some association
had a way of polling or voting
for it's membership
than all doubt could be/would be removed
from some of the arguments
we tend to have.
And, there can be a lot of self interest
disguised as majority opinions,
at all levels of the senior community
that would/could be challenged
and exposed which could be the reason
why it's not currently available.

Speaking for the majority is
fundamentally all right and necessary
at times
and what we need more is the capability to be able to back up with credible voting/polling evidence
our contentions.
Any and all of them.

Dec. 17, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

How is the freak with USSSA ball standards?
Dec. 17, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Butch,
I said Freak Plus and if I'm not mistaken
it's still an approved USSSA bat.
Dec. 17, 2009
Men's 60
873 posts
I see your point, but wholeheartedly disagree with your idea that you have any right to speak for anyone, minority or majority or individual. When you take that upon yourself you are infringing upon each of those people and their rights. You do have the right however to voice YOUR opinion(s), but not those of others.
Joe, when you are elected or given those rights through petition or vote, then and then only do you have the power of the people.
I do agree with your thoughts on players needing a forum to vote. We do have regional reps to voice our concerns for us if we use them.
Dec. 17, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

My fault. How is the Freak Plus with their ball standard. It maybe the reason they allow it and not U-2.

It is possible if they used a different(hotter) ball it would not be legal. Did I detect a little twinge in your voice?

Nothing personal just asking.

Happy Holidays
Dec. 17, 2009
Men's 60
547 posts
Joe....Remember the poll we took several years ago on the U-2?
How about platooning?

You are only right 50% about the majority.

Enjoy the holidays.
Dec. 17, 2009
Omar Khayyam
1243 posts
einstein, I'm not looking for a tamer game, I'm interested in a saner game.

When I first started pitching fast pitch, the rubber was 37' 8 1/2" from home! Would you pitch from that distance with today's monster bats? Didn't think so. The only thing that kept pitching from being suicidal was the wooden bat.

Technology will always outpace human development. We are no faster or stronger or quicker than guys 50 years ago. But the bat has become way better. That's why little guys like me are now poking home runs for the first time, even with a loss of power, bat speed, and even eyesight.

You are looking for "best ball and bat we could find" and I am warning against the excessively hot bat that has changed the game from one of balance and beauty into a slugfest where offense rules.

Why do you think baseball has stayed with the wooden bats? To stop the whole lineup from hitting 400' shots and to protect the infielders and pitcher.

With your desire for best available, there is no stopping the better and better bat and ball until the game is just a batting practice exhibition. Keep advocating for the hot (and hotter bats as you describe your broken-in Freak Plus and Super Freak) and the pitching screen and the dumbed down ball will be here in a year.
Dec. 17, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Oh Sal.
I'm startin' to feel like
Rodney freakin' Dangerfield.
"What a tough crowd.
I don't get no respect.
I bought my kid a BBGun for Christmas.
And he got me a sweatshirt with a target
on the back."
Actually, Sal.
I never said Platooning was popular.
It just should be.
Nothing better than a good laugh,
Sal. Keep 'em coming.

If I ever go to court I gotta get
you to represent me.
You're relentless, artful and persuasive.
You go, guy.
It will be the screen first, OK.
The majority of senior players
and I think all players
will never accept a significantly dumbed down ball and you can quote me on that one and the youngsters
shouldn't either.
Again, SSUSA and LVSSA and NCSSA
and SPA have already weighed in for a lively bat/ball combo for seniors.
I don't know what else to tell
but you don't represent the majority
of senior players on this issue
and that is crystal clear.

I don't represent the majority
on free defensive subbing but I still think it's a great idea with a ton
of senior softball merit.
Don't give up hope, OK.
Dec. 17, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
could some one cliff note all of joe's posts,they are so full of junk and he insists on typeing 4 words a line to take up so much space also makes them a pain to read.
Dec. 17, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Only tough for some, Robert.
Happy Holidays and
keep up the good work.
Dec. 18, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
sad dog, you must need Cliff notes for See Spot Run with your "massive" intellect. :(
Dec. 18, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
well coming from a dipstick,not much credibility there.when you can stay on a team again(and not get cut) please let us know.

joe just let the message board do it instead of hitting enter every 4 words.
Dec. 18, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Why not stay or at least
try to stay on the issues,
Robert if you want to be taken seriously.
Name calling says more about you
than about whomever
you're trying to demean.
Gary's all right and not afraid
to stand up for what he believes
even if it's unpopular.
That takes balls.
Don't be the first one
to throw a stone.
Again, try to stay on the issues
and we'll all be better served.
Dec. 18, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
so you are gary's buddy now,what is it,something we don't know.

JOE you got to be kidding,you will hijack a thread in a instant with you crying about the "seniors need a hot bat/ball combo",yeah right.
Dec. 18, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
Now dog give him credit that has not showed up on the "Best Shoes" thread yet.:)
Dec. 18, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Issues, Dog.
I-S-S-U-E-S, you know.
Stuff worth talkin' about.
I'm sure you can come up with one,
if you try.
Dec. 18, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
its not a bad idea,but if i ask you a question about something,its the SOS,no answer from you,just a big tirade on how we seniors need the hottest equipment want this to be nothing but about you and your crusade,with no regard to the safety of the senior ball would rather play hr derby vs a real ball game(pitching,real hitting not this hr derby you suggest we do and defense),you just get on your bully pulpit and condensend down to the ones would like to see the game come back to which it should be.why is everyone else wrong but your right.
Dec. 18, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
Dec. 18, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Robert,
Safety is a great issue.
What's safe and unsafe.
What's worth sacrificing some safety for
and what isn't.
Somewhere down the line
the regulatory fathers decided some safety rules were in order.
Remember, that's not my preference
or Gary's or many others who feel
the game shouldn't be changed at all
for safety reasons.
Good balls and bats and let's play.
But given safety concerns I think
we need to be sure we need safety measures at all.
Studies show there were more injuries
10 years ago than today.
But if you want to go with safety concerns than why not leave the ball/bat alone and change other stuff
like pitching rules to give the pitcher
more to work with or masks
or screens.
All these are worthy of concern
and I'm sure there's other stuff, too.
If a ball is safer and still fun to hit
let's play with that ball but
I won't sacrifice safety for fun.
No, Robert, I won't and most of us
won't either.
If a ball has to be made into a pillow
to be safe then I say NO DEAL.
Why can't a ball be made safer and lively, too.
Then TD's will still be chasing them
and losing them and innings will be longer and less and games will be longer with more runs scored.
You see, Robert there's a lot more to it
than meets the eye when you stare at it
for a while.
So, safety's a great issue but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and kill our game.
That's what I'm talking about
and that's my issue.
Lively balls/good bats forever and
make the game safer, too.
How's do like them apples?
Dec. 19, 2009
Men's 60
873 posts
Same old story........Different Day.
We have our ball (44/375) and our bats (U2's), etc.
This entire issue is being beaten into the ground and is far, far, beyond redundant.
If we want to continue to hit the ball at 140mph back through the middle, we better be ready for severe injuries and/or a death. We have been very lucky to date. I can see when it happens, this blog will be ablazed with ??? wanting to know why more safety measures werent taken.
When the horse gets out of the barn isnt the time to take action.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. Stay safe my friends!
Dec. 20, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey E,
It won't matter if, God forbid,
someone takes one in the head.
It's happened before and nothing's been done about it else how'd we get here.
If you really want to preserve what's truly
important and intrinsic to senior ball,
as in safety and lively bat/ball combo
support screens, or tougher arch limits
and other pitching options,
move the rubber back farther
make the plate wider,
go to one and one count, etc.
I never got why the solution has to be
something that would neuter our sport
and those playing.
Dec. 20, 2009
Men's 60
873 posts
No one has been killed yet Joe. When that happens it will be too late. But changes will made, changes we will then welcome out of fear.
It seems our game did pretty well before the Senior bats came along. We have been using the 44/375 for years in one form or another, now we have hot bats that turn it into a cannon ball.
You want to take our game back? Advocate no senior bats.
Lets prove who the big boys are. The ones who will still smoke the cover off the pellet.
People on this site talk about getting in shape or moving to a different position if their reflexes slow down. We are called seniors for a reason and as senioors there are certain facts that we will have to face. We are older, our reflexes have slowed, our bones are more brittle, our vision isnt nearly what it was as 25. The list goes on and on.
When my playing days are done, I want it to be my decision, not some Dr in an ER.
The balls we hit with Mikens and other bats get thru the infield 2 x faster then with wooden or 1st generation aluminum. I for one am almost 3 x older then when I started this game.
Do the math.
Dec. 20, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
E4/E6,couldn't of said it better,its what i have been saying all along,if ya wanna keep the hot bats we need to change the ball(aka 52-275 or similar),if ya wanna keep the ball we need to go with the usssa bats max.using a screen does nothing for the game but put an obstruction on the field,as for safety equipment(do ya think ss-usa wants to front for 10 screens,min),who's gonna buy a mask and shin guards if they go that way,they can run ya $100 plus.all the other artificial ways do nothing to protect the pitcher(aka 1-1 count,higher arc,etc).the only true way is to go to the 52-275 ball.
Dec. 21, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
E and Robert.
Those are great arguments but so is,
the game is dangerous
or it wouldn't be
the game.
Wait long enough and someone will take
one in the head and be hurt.
That's the way we've been playing
for years.
Why change now??????????????????????????
Wear a mask.
Plus, the math doesn't add up.
Why not change the depth the pitcher
pitches from and increase the angles.
this can be done easily without cost
or effecting anything else.
Why not masks or screens which make
more sense than you guys wanna see.
And why not wait for a ball
that's both lively and safe.
I know that going to a lesser
bat/ball combo will kill our sport.
and other associations that have
already made a stand.
They represent the majority of us,
guys, by a long shot
and you can keep lobbying and
cajoling and acting self righteous
all you want but it won't change
that there's lots of way to skin
the cat when it comes right down to it
and when those other ways
aren't championed or explored
it makes me think
"what else is involved here"
"why aren't they talking about changing
the pitchers arc"
"what other things does going to a lesser ball accomplish and for whom"
These are very good questions
with very real answers for anyone
with the awareness, care and fortitude
to ask them.
We know TD's don't wanna chase
or lost balls.
What part does this play in the equation.
We know manufacturers want to sell
their products, their inventions,
their investments to capture or maintain
market share or control
which is completely legal and part of our money culture?
What part does this play in it.
We know TD's want to keep tournaments
running on time so they want to get
the most innings in the least amount of time so guys won't complain about
not getting enough the fee?
What part does this play in the movement
to go to a lesser ball.

Injuries dictate I'm a pitcher, now.
My game will be greatly enhanced
with a lesser ball or a restricted flight ball.
It will be much easier for me
to mess with batters and keep guys
from hitting the ball hard and far.
Why am I so opposed to going
away from a lively bat/ball combo?
Because it will kill the game
and most of the senior players
think so, too.
Dec. 21, 2009
Men's 60
873 posts

I agree with some of your what you are saying. Let me ask you a direct question, did you have fun playing Senior Softball BEFORE senior bats came on the scene? Not more fun, just plain old fun.

Dec. 21, 2009
Omar Khayyam
1243 posts
E4/E6, what a great question. Since I've been playing league softball longer than most of the guys on this forum (1953), I have a long term perspective.

First of all, softball has always been fun for me! I have played every single year since that first season. But some years have been more fun than others.

In the fast pitch days (I have always been a pitcher), it became less fun as the pitcher became more and more dominant. The rubber was moved back again and again to try to temper that dominance, but it wasn't much fun for most batters. When there are tons of strikeouts, it's nice to win if your man is the horse, but it is boring for fielders and frustrating for hitters. Games were typically 2-1, and usually on errors and walks combined.

Along came slow pitch and softball took off. Everyone could hit, and only pitchers lost status. Every fielder was important since most guys learned to hit to the opposite side. There was a play every at bat. Only occasionally did a ball clear the fence and that slugger was greatly admired by both teams. Offense, defense, base running, strategy—the balanced game was so much fun.

Things started to change when hot balls were introduced. More infielders were hurt; pitchers became less secure. Eventually, the super hot balls were dropped for all but the top levels because most reflexes weren't up to the task. And these were 20 and 30-year-olds! Balance was restored and the balls reverted to the old days, if not to RF balls. I still had lots of fun and dreamed of the next game.

The first aluminum bats were no problem. They weren't any hotter than wood. What they did provide was durability and the new concept of team bats (our team at one time had only 5 bats that we all shared).

Then came the hot bats—titanium, double wall, composites. Offense ruled...and does to this day. The younger guys have realized that it is ruining the game and hot bats are banned and sock balls are used in many places. But the seniors have been slow to realize that an unbalanced game takes away a lot of the fun.

As an oldster, my strength has lessened (although I hit farther than ever in my life with the Miken); my reflexes have slowed (I now armor up to pitch and it affects my fielding ability); I am slower to heal so the normal risks of getting plunked take more of a toll.

What has not changed is my knowledge of the game—strategy, base running, backing up, anticipation, building team chemistry, etc. But these qualities are not as important in the unbalanced game that we currently have. I still have fun, or I wouldn't play 20 tournaments a year and 120+ league games. But I would have more fun if we returned to the recent past and a balanced game. Do away with the hot bats or dumb down the balls to return to balance where every skill is important.
Dec. 21, 2009
Men's 55
50 posts
IMO the game was not dangerous until technology became involved, i.e. the T 4000. After several players were hurt or killed, the ball was banned. The same or similar with the titanium bats. Yes, you could get hurt with a ball to the head but do not remember hearing of anyone killed before the "changes" to the game. Why should technology dictate a change to the game with masks, screens, etc.
If the players actually play the game for the love, friendship, etc. then changing the bat/ball combo should not change that. If all assoc. would change to the same bat/ball combo, those who love the game would adjust and those who play for their "ego" may not.
It is true that manufacturers/inventors have the right to use technology to develop whatever they want but that does not mean anyone has to use the new developments.
I agree it is about money but IMO it is the money being given to assoc. by the bat manufacturers that driving the decision to keep the hot bats. That decision has driven a large number of players to buy the hotter equipment. If not using the hotter equipment, it would be like taking a knife to a gun fight.
I am not saying that all divisions need to move away from the hot bat/ball combo but it should be a decision to move the that division and not something a team gets moved into because they had success. I do not intend to speak for the majority, only my opinion. Personally I had more fun with the lesser equipment. It allowed more facets of the game to have an effect to the outcome. To me it requires more practice, talent, etc. to base hit then to hit homeruns. I would like to see the game return to the well rounded game instead of just an offense dominated game.
Dec. 21, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Great comments, guys.
Too bad we can't tell you, personally.
You talk effortessly and brilliantly from your perspective and I love to read your stuff
but you don't speak for the majority
of players.
Hitting the ball well and hard
is fundamental to our game,
the game most of us play.
Don't kill the messenger.
Also, many of us who have the power
and innate ability to drive the ball
never took or thought we needed
any lessons on how to do it
which I found out like Ray DeMarini
and Bogie, isn't true.
Bog's videos are the best, most inclusive
and most entertaining videos on hitting
I've ever seen and there are some terrific
ones out there.

With conditioning and technique training
and confidence lots of us
not just me, can hit the ball better
than we did earlier in our careers.
And playing with good lively equipment
still motivates us to try to figure it out better
so we can maximize our efforts.
I know this is true for lots of us.
We have more time now to devote to training
and conditioning as lots of us
are retired and/or make more time to spend
on things we truly enjoy.
Sorry, guys.
It doesn't matter if someone gets hurt bad with a batted softball next tournament
or year.
I've gotten bones broken before the hot
bats came into being.
Getting hurt is part of the game
we use, as Gary says, to motivate us
to train, lift weights, get into the best shape
we can to play the game
the way it was meant to be played.
If you don't want to play/pitch
you don't have to.

Dec. 21, 2009
Men's 60
873 posts
"You talk effortessly and brilliantly from your perspective and I love to read your stuff
but you don't speak for the majority
of players."
We seem to have a mutual admiration here.
But you dont speak for the majority either.

"Sorry, guys.
It doesn't matter if someone gets hurt bad with a batted softball next tournament
or year.
I've gotten bones broken before the hot
bats came into being.
Getting hurt is part of the game"
What matters more then another ball player being injured? Winning at ANY cost? I think not.
If thats your thought process, you have evolved far beyond reasonable men. After all softball is our sport/hobby, not our profession.

All the best boys!

Dec. 21, 2009
425 posts
"Sorry, guys.
It doesn't matter if someone gets hurt bad with a batted softball next tournament or year". Einstein 2009.
Sir, you are disgrace to the game. To some of us this still a game that we play to have fun have few beers with friends…Actually most of the time we pray and always ask the Lord for the safety of all. I have no idea who you are, but I have lost all respect for you, for you put the ability to hit 400' HRs over the safety of human being it is truly sad. You are a sorry excuse of a human being.
Dec. 21, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
There you go again, Paco whomever
making it personal and I'm not supposed
to react.
SSUSA, LVSSA SPA and NCSSA all endorse
a lively bat/ball combo but
I'm a disgrace, eh?
You're little movement to kill our game
has just finished it's 15 minutes of fame.
It's time for me and the rest of the senior softball community to train and get ready
for 2010.
If you really care about safety
there's lots of ways to make the game
safer without killing it and us
and the fun we deserve to have.
Check out NorCal sometime
when you get a chance and we don't mind
you having a dissenting opinion
and we won't call you a disgrace.
You're self-righteous little hustle
won't work with us, either.
Dec. 21, 2009
Men's 60
873 posts
Joe, Beathe deep, Breathe deep, JK, =)

I'm quite sure we will agree our game will still be here tomorrow, regardless of the bat/ball being used. We will still play the game with whatever bat/ball we are being sold.
You have your Christmas wish list and I have mine. Neither is a Majority or a Minority.
They are different and they are both right, and they are both wrong. Points of view will, I hope, always vary or be different.
Stay safe, and for Christ sake back up after your release! =)

Merry Christmas!

Dec. 21, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks, John.
That was obviously well intentioned.
But we disagree.
I contend the majority of players
want/need to play with a satisfyingly
lively bat/ball combo.
I have asked just about every player I know
and have never heard once
that this isn't so.
So, I'm not going very far out on the limb
saying my opinion is a majority one.
It's a no doubter.
Happy Holidays.
Thanks for the obviously good intentions
not only this season but all seasons.
Same to you.
Dec. 21, 2009
Omar Khayyam
1243 posts

Einstein hits one 375 feet over the fence in a tournament. His teammate, next at bat, hits one 400 feet. Trotting back to the dugout, einstein goes out and high-fives his buddy.

"Don't you just love the hot bat/ball combo?"asks einstein.

"You dambetcha!" his teammate replies.

Einstein goes to a line drive hitter in the dugout whose infield value to the team is suspect because he can't get to the ball like he used to before the senior bats. "Isn't it great to swing a good bat at a good ball?!"

"Whatever you say, Joe" is the meek reply.

"I tell ya," says einstein, "everyone I talk to loves the good bat/ball combo! In fact, they want even hotter balls and hotter bats!"
Dec. 21, 2009
Men's 65
601 posts
Something that would go a lot further for player protection would be NO more night games. They are scheduled at night to save costs - but at what cost? Due to this (night) I saw more close calls at the Winter Worlds than I saw (in daylight) during the entire tourney season.

That is a real issue.

The pitcher "zone" is a mistake as was the PPR.
Dec. 21, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
You think a lot less of the players
I play with and against
and more of me and
my intimidating power and prowess
than reality would dictate
but I think I could learn to like it,
oh charming and anonymous one.

Are you one of the meek guys
and that's why you won't tell us
who you really are?
Dec. 21, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts

I agree night games are an issue and I agree also on the new no fly zone.
Dec. 22, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
why is it joe if someone doesn't agree with you and they have no info for you ,you call them out and abuse them.when the person who does agree with you has no info,your all for them,how do we know they aren't schills for you,or even you going under an assumed name to boost your group of would be followers.
you say your for safety,but will not give up a dangerous bat/ball combo that can kill someone,and then say you couldn't care less if it did happen,i have to agree with paco,that is so disrespecting of your fellow senior softball player.
lets get some sanity back to our game and be able to live to see the next day.
Dec. 22, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
I was tongue and cheeking and going easy
with OK who was tongue and cheeking and going easy with me.
You're response to me says more about you
and your quickness to jump me
than anything about me.

Listen, Robert.
We can disagree about the balls
or what's good for senior ball but you seem
to have difficulty being respectful to anyone
who disagrees with you.
You single me out for what most senior players
require and that's a lively bat/ball combo
and seem to have trouble accepting
just to name few associations
have defined a lively bat/ball standard
for the coming year 2010.
You can talk all you want, Robert,
but it's not gonna change what's going down
at least, for this year.
I respect anyone who truly believes in anything
regardless of whether it's correct
or reflected by the majority of members,
Robert, and you, sir,
need to do the same or every crack
and comment you make
will be defining you more and more
to the senior community as a thick-headed
dodo with bad intentions.
Dec. 22, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
my post,joe i guess you really don't care then,as long as you get your hot bat/ball combo.oh why am i wrong and your correct,i have seen more support for a less hotter combo than i have for yours.when you ask the players on what they like to hit,do you always ask them also if they don't mind fielding it(aka pitchers)or have it hit at them,i will be willing to bet they would say no.
where is it a requirement for seniors to be able seriously injure or kill each other,as this bat/ball combo can do.
ok now for the name calling,i'm a thick headed dodo,a schill for anaconda sports,ignorant,and others you have come up with,whats next.please as usaul your bully pulpit tactics will not work here.
Dec. 22, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
You say you're so concerned about safety
yet your only solution is to dumb down the ball.
There's tons of ways to make the game
safe and keep the ball lively and fun
enough to want to play it.
Masks and shin guards,
pitching angles, depth, arcs and strike zone,
screens, 1-1 count,
Why don't or haven't you championed
any of these????????????????????

I've said a cajillion times
I'm not against a safer ball
but it has to be lively enough
to thoroughly enjoy our game.
I don't think that ball is being made yet
but it could be.
I'm open, Robert, to any ways that make sense
to make our senior softball experience better
not just one as you seem to be.
I don't want to get personal with you
but you never seem to see that I react
to the tone and attitude of your posts.
And denial, Robert, is not a river in Africa.
Dec. 22, 2009
Omar Khayyam
1243 posts
einstein, correcto! I was just pulling your tail a little bit with my "scenario" and no, I am not meek, and would always speak up if necessary to present another opinion.

Of course we disagree on the hot bat/ball combo, but my concerns are not only with safety. Plenty of contributors here have urged a less dangerous combo for the safety of pitcher and infielder. I see their point, and agree that it is inevitable that a serious accident will occur because senior reflexes will not be able to cope with a swiftly hit ball.

The best solution for this is a screen for the pitcher (which offends traditionalists like Dirty), but how to protect infielders? Masks? Armor? It's time to eliminate the super bat (easier than playing with a sock ball) or if that is too radical for the egos of some, go to the sock. But that's just for safety.

My stronger argument is that the overemphasis on offense as represented by the hot bat/ball combo and the resultant over-abundance of home runs, especially by pipsqueaks like me, has destroyed the balance of the game I love. It makes a mockery of infielders who can't catch up with balls whizzing by them and of outfielders who can't cover all the gaps and spend too much of their time staring up at a ball sailing well over the fence.

Once defense is diminished, then of course smart base running, strategy, the value of the line drive hitter also have less value. With the hot bat/ball combo, batters just whale away. The solution of making a home run an out is ludicrous, but it is one attempt to bring balance back to the over-indulged offense.

Let's go back to the balanced beautiful game of our youth—youth?! Why not just the game we loved in the early nineties before the double-wall and composite bats ruined the game.

Safety? Sure. Balanced game? Absolutely. If not my solution, you suggest a way to lessen the home run by unworthy batters such as myself, and lessen the superspeed balls hit through the infield and by the pitcher.

Remember, I'm the guy who NEVER had a home run in his life for 50 years of playing, and then hit two over the fence in one game with my Ultra II. And I'm the guy who would give up my Miken in a minute for the joy of a balanced game.
Dec. 23, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
Is something wrong with tradition? :)

Seriously, it is not just for the sake of tradition but sticking a screen in the middle of the infield, besides making the field look like a miniature golf course, seriously affects the game. You are putting up an obstacle for players to have to throw around and the pitcher to have to move around when playing his position.

Not to mention you are completely taking defense out of the pitcher position. What self-respecting pitcher wants that to occur?

It is so simple. If you can no longer field the position, or don't want to, or choose not to wear some type of protection that you might need, or choose not to work on your defense as much and as hard as you probably do your hitting, those are your choices that others should not have to pay the price for.
Dec. 23, 2009
Men's 60
547 posts
Omar.........Since you are now a home run hitter, you must be in great demand. Just two months ago in Phoenix, the 60 major plus team that won the World Championship, totaled 8 home runs with those hot 1.20 bats. Hell, you would have hit that many just by yourself. Enjoy the notoriety that comes with being a big hitter.
Dec. 23, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
This is great guys.
We're doing the work, the dirty work
the real work of daring to define
who we are and what our game really is.
I'm with you, Gary about the traditional game
but a lively bat and ball
are necessary and part of that game.
And hitting the ball dead center
hard or as hard as you can is a big
part of that traditional game.
Having to cut a ball or spin a ball
is NOT.
(Don't kill the messenger)
Leverage and smarts on how to swing,
counter our losses in natural reaction.
Plus, when less to no
adrenalin is involved
physical performance drops exponentially.
So the more tame we make our game
the less truly competitive it will be
the less adrenalin we'll produce
and need and the crappier we'll play.
Doesn't getting old have enough
draw backs to it without having
to lose playing and having fun
playing a game we've always played
and always loved playing.

Maybe I'm just getting
the Christmas spirit but
I want to apologiz to anyone I've hurt for any reason
Kevin to Gary to Maddog to
Jimmy the cat who's no longer with us because something tells me
when and where it really counts
inside and outside of us
we're all worth the same,
all God's children and all just
trying to get along.
There's no true bad guys or evil doers
in my or Jesus' world.
I hopegood will and some Christmas
cheer can lessen whatever has happened
between Bill Ruth and Stoneman
and some real peace can be had
by us, everyone on the board
and in our community
all our families and friends.

Sorry, Robert for going after you
on my last post.
I truly don't want to hurt you
anymore because we disagree about
bats and balls.
Happy Holidays, one and all.
Dec. 23, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Sal. Great observation and point.
Dec. 23, 2009
Men's 65
3146 posts
Happy holidays back to you,Joe, and everyone else!
Dec. 23, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
as usaul joe you have never paid attention to what i have ever posted.i suggested the use(mandatory) of pitcher protection equipment over 6 months i've said before who is gonna pay for all this equipment that a pitcher would need(mask-$40 +,shin guards $40 +,chest protector for the heart another $40 +,there is a min of $120 just for that)oh what about shoes to protect the feet like MLB umps have.ok now with the pitching changes(1-1 count,move rubber,letting the height go up and etc)none of this does anything to protect the pitcher with the hot bat/ball combo we now have,in fact it will prolly get more middle shots as the hitter has less to work with.
joe you going after somone is just you trying to bully someone into your way of thinking.does not work with me.

omar i completely agree with you,lets bring a little sanity to the game.yes i was able to hit hrs as a youngen,but like you said it getting ridculous when guys who couldn't do it before are now hr me it ruins the game as we now have these guys trying to hit a ball over all the time instead of being a team player and getting the basehit they were acustom to doing before the hot bats came to play.
also defense is now virtually non-exsistence.i used to pride myself into going in the hole(as a SS)and getting balls,now i need to cheat some to do that and hopefully the batter will hit the way i'm cheating.
to add a cut swing is the most natural swing there is,it is what is taught in the MLB,a slight up to down swing is what is perfered,derek jeter has a practice device out that does just that,but i guess he is a nobody,oh well.
Dec. 23, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
No one is going to or wants to bully you
about anything, Robert.
I'd like you to get up and offa me.
Don't lose sight of the fact that oftentimes
people are reacting to something YOU said
when you think they're attacking you.
Truth be told,
you're not better than anyone, Robert
and no one is better than you.

Dec. 23, 2009
Omar Khayyam
1243 posts
Sal, I AM in greater demand and what a joke. I run about as fast as ten years ago (practice and working out making up for aging loss of strength); I pitch about the same; I field a little worse as reflexes and eyes slow; I'm no smarter as a base runner or knowing when and where to hit depending upon the situation—yet more teams inquire about me because I can hit the long ball with a senior bat. I don't bat third, fourth, or fifth; my average is about the same but my slugging average is up. It's all about offense and I'm the one arguing that technology-created offense is ruining our game.

I'm with einstein—I want to return to the traditional game, the one I played in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s where the hot bat/ball combo of today did NOT exist and there was more balance between the skills of offense and defense, and the thinking of base running and strategy.

I used to enjoy watching the smooth fielding shortstop with the rocket arm as much as the home run hitter—I admired them both. Today, give me the shortstop anytime to watch (when he can get to the bat-enhanced screamers through the infield). I am bored by many home run hitters because I know it is so often the result of composite technology, not skill, strength, or technique.
Dec. 23, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
You gotta be a lawyer and if not
you missed your calling.
You express your views artistically
and have a tremendous gift for articulation.
I'm sad you won't let us know who you are.
This is huge thing to us.
Now, you say you want to go back to the way
the game was always played but as you yourself
said, you chose to use hot bats
when other bats are available.
I play against guys who don't use senior bats
in senior tournaments and perhaps
they more authentically portray themselves
as guys who truly believe that the hot equipment
is ruining the game.

When I talk about going back to no rules
softball, it's only and always with
a lively bat and ball combo.
It doesn't matter if its a single wall Easton
or DeMarini with a good/hot Blue Dot Worth ball.
When you hit the ball hard it goes somewhere
fast and/or far.

You're problem with me and us
OK is that you don't represent the most of us.
You represent perhaps yourself
even though your actions don't match your words as has been pointed out.
Most of us want to play with
a lively bat/ball combo
and again,
all have adopted lively bat and ball combos
for this year.
I don't think you mind that we all disagree
with you and that's OK, OK.
I think you think the game is better
the way you'd like it to be.
Personally, I think that it's time for you
to stop pitching and let someone else
take over the mound.

You know, this is a lesson for me,
for you and anyone and that is
if you listen to someone long enough
you can figure out where they're coming from.

I have never played a tame game of softball.
Don't play co-ed because it's too tame.
Have never enjoyed playing with a dead/
restricted flight ball and
I will say that most of the players
playing senior ball if not all ball
would agree with me.

Let's be clear.
You don't represent the most of us, OK
or the heart of us in your desire to play
a kinder, gentler game.
Competing, dominating, winning
are still too important to lots of us.
And we love to hit the crap out of the ball.
Dec. 23, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
Joe I'm with you 38 oz. aluminum bats and blue dot balls and let's go.
Dec. 23, 2009
Omar Khayyam
1243 posts
Einstein, you're jumping to the wrong conclusions. I'm a competitive athlete, always have been. Been playing league and tournament softball since 1953. And it's not my best sport: not what I lettered in in high school, not another sport I dominated in my 20s. In all these sports, I never stop doing my best and I always play to win.

However, I do play to not win at all costs. I don't like winning with enhanced bat technology beyond that which brought us the balanced game of the past decades. I won't cheat to win. I won't go headhunting on a pitcher to win, even in retaliation. I won't dump guys on my team that I am fond of just to win. I won't tell guys they can only be a substitute runner so we can win. I won't just bat the best 10 to win, when all have contributed during the season and paid their own ways. In this sense, we are likely different.

I'm not afraid of risk and pain. I have been hit innumerable times since beginning pitching fast pitch from 37 feet. I've broken fingers and my leg playing softball. It is part of the game.

Einstein, I like you and your full-bore style of playing. I enjoy watching you put your nose in it. I just think not only are you wrong, but you sure don't represent the majority of senior softball players—major+ guys, maybe, but not the majority who post on this forum, nor older players nor those of less skill who can't play the power game and yearn for a time when their skills were valued.

Nonetheless, keep safe in the year ahead and keep playing full out. You are a joy to watch and fun to read. A merry Christmas to you and your loved ones.
Dec. 24, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
We disagree about balls and bats
and the way the game is approached and
won't be respectful enough to tell us
who you are.
This is fundamental in the realm
of "real" men in order to be respected
and give respect to others in our community, any community.
Perhaps you don't care about bats/balls
being neutered because you don't even care enough about us and yourself
to share with us who you are.
I'm sorry.
I think whoever you are would be important and valued member of our community but only if you have the ante
to the play the game.
No ante - No game.
And you couldn't be more wrong
about the majority of players
and the soul of senior ball
especially in NorCal.
The game is not and should not change
because of an elitist attitude
no matter how smart, articulate and cool
you are especially if you won't step up
to the plate and be one of us.
It's consistent with your elitist approach to our game that you
not tell us who you are,
come to think of it.
There's nothing wrong with being wrong
or disagreeing about anything
but something's not real enough
with you and you're cool demeanor.
It's never too late to join.
From this point on
I won't engage you or get involved
with anything you post as you
continue to maintain a position
that is non respectful,
separate and "better" than us.
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
well there ya go again joe,omar is as being a legit source for post as you are,does not matter who he is,or where he is from,what does it matter.oh i get it,he's making to much sense for you to argue against.personally if i hadn't met you i would have the same opinion of you and your posts as i do some people have said this is a message board that does not requie all our personal info to be laid out for one and all to get a hold of,no need for that.i just so happen to join this board at the beginning of its inseption,and at that time i didn't feel there would be a prol with putting mine out there,if i had to do it over again i would have my full name on here to be seen.
you are being more disrespectful than omar could think of to be,joe get over yourself and get a life please.
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
need to amend above post to say"i would not have put my full name to be seen by everyone" if i had it to do over again.
Dec. 26, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Here's another majority opinion, Robert.
Over 80 per cent of the guys who post
let us know who they really are.
I won't bother to explain why
because it's so obvious it would be
a waste of time but
in the community of real men
it's important to identify oneself
in order to be recognized and participate.
Common sense and common human decency.

Interestingly, it's not a requirement
to post on this board
and I never said it was, Robert.
At a certain point in time
if a post-er wishes to continue
to make specific and personal comments
and/or be taken seriously by the rest of us, he or she needs to let us know
who they are.
Common sense and common human decency.

Robert, we'd all better served
if you tried to stay on issues
instead of personalities.
Perhaps it's because you really don't have that much to say or your arguments
aren't really worth pursuing.
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
as usaul joe you would rather bash someone who doesn't think your way,i personally think its alright to just post b/c in all of the other boards i'm on most of the people there reamin anonymous and guess what,no one has a prol with it,and i mean no have been the only person i have known to have a problem with it on all the boards i'm on,so i guess you are in the minority,again.
as i have said before you just type to see yourself type(and also don't read my post's,b/c if you did you would see i stand for a few things,safety,defense in our game and such which you don't),you get on your bully pulpit and holler away thinking b/c you are loud everyone is listening to you.
so joe get off your hi horse and leave it alone(the bashing off anyone who disagrees with you).
i don't think 50% of the senior ball players will ever agree with you except maybe the M+ players who make up the smallest amount of players in senior ball.
Dec. 26, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're whole agenda, Robert,
is being negative to anything I say
and it shows, loud and clear.
Are you that insecure about yourself
you have to try to make me look bad
so you can look good???
Most of the guys on this site,
Robert, this one, 80 per cent or so
all say who they are and that's what I was talking about.
Not some other site or sites.
I could give a squat.
And are you trying to insinuate
that it's not more respectful
to identify yourself when attempting
to criticize or get personal with
other men?
Is that what you're trying to say?

all have spoken in favor of a lively
bat/ball combo.
Are they and all those they represent self centered egomaniacs, too?
You're obvious, Robert and
keep up the good work.
You making me look good
and for anyone who's seen me
that's hard to do.
Dec. 26, 2009
Omar Khayyam
1243 posts

In my last post, I complimented you on your playing, attitude, and interesting posts that lead to a difference of opinion with other posters. Then I wished you a Merry Christmas.

In response, I was called by you “disrespectful”, not a “real man”, “neutered”, no “self-esteem”, no “ante” for the game, “wrong”, “elitist”, “not real”, “separate”, thinking I’m “better” than you and the others. How bizarre.

All of this seems to stem from the fact that I am anonymous to you. I have agreed and disagreed with many other posters on the message board over the years, and no one has said they were not going to respond because I am anonymous! Only you.

Did I miss something? Is revealing one’s true identity a requirement of this message board? According to SSUSA, I can give my “nickname or handle—what you want us to call you.” Also, “Senior Softball-USA respects your privacy.” Looks like you are the one in the wrong, einstein.

And I’m sorry that in the future, that for you there will a lot less discussion on topics and subjects and opinions (I’ve never gone in for disparaging remarks, insults, name-calling, etc.). On this very thread, that YOU began, there are 14 posters so far. Of those, 9 of them, 64%, are anonymous!

I wondered if this was an anomaly, so I looked up every single man on the last 20 threads. There were 69 different men and 40 of them, 58%, were anonymous! Being anonymous is the norm, so you will be losing the opportunity to interact with more than half of the posters, including some of your favorite correspondents: Butch17, Dirty, Salio2k, Paco13, spoonplugger, jawood, 4x4, trumpball, LP, JamesLG, wagon487, SLOBALL1, and others. It will be a lonely 2010.

Now you may say that you know who some of them are, but I don’t because they have chosen not to identify themselves...and I don’t care. That is their privilege. I am interested in a discussion on issues and topics and the health of senior softball. I don’t have to know who someone is to have a lively and informative exchange of opinions. What am I supposed to do—demand to know their real names so I can call them out and make it personal?

I think mad dog has it right. I am making too much sense for you to successfully argue against so you are going to stop corresponding with me. In your post to mad dog, you state that “over 80% of the guys who post let us know who they really are”. Nope, the right figure is only 42%. That’s why I doubt your assertion that the “vast majority” of players want a lively bat/ball combo. I suspect that statistic is as wrong as your assumption about anonymous posters.

I will keep posting, and especially trying to revive interest in returning to the balanced softball game of offense, defense, base running, and strategy that was the norm for decades until the technological boom in hot bats of the mid-nineties. I’m sorry if I will be losing hearing your alternative position favoring offense over the other elements of softball.
Dec. 26, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
Brilliant sounding fluff and I'm just
not interested anymore.
Knock yourself out.
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
omar ya got to be kidding right, do know it is b/c you make to much you can see,as told by this clown that i never post anything of value.its his way of just trying to bully everyone into his way of thinking.he could care less if anyone would get killed by this hot bat/ball combo,if he did he would be right there trying to really make our game safer and saner to play.personally i could live with the ball if we do away with the senior bat,i still can with with even ASA type bats so it doesn't matter to me and prolly a lot of players.there is just much testosterone going about here.there is no such thing as a"SENIOR RIGHT TO HIT THE BALL SO HARD THAT NO ONE CAN FIELD IT",i'm with you lets get the defense back into the game.
by the way for people getting hurt,i've done it myself with batted balls 2 that come to mind particularly is a 3rd baseman who couldn't get down to field a ball at his ankle(and he was 30' back of 3rd),he had to leave the was rcf who had the ball skip and take his knee out(and no it wasn't wet,very dry field),both were done with an why do we need to be able to hit balls that hard.
Dec. 26, 2009
Men's 55
412 posts
I only ask that don't dump on all the guys that play Major Plus as we are not all alike. Just because I have an opinion on certain items doesn't mean everybody has the same opinion and the same goes for Joe's opinion.

We all know what bat and ball combo's will be used in 2010 so that should put the issue to bed.
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
yeah butch i understand,its prolly where i should be playing also but have no team to do so with here where i'm at in east texas.i still wouldn't be a power hitter tho if i you know i like my hi avg over a mid-avg with hrs.butch you also have someone speaking for you,so you don't need to,LOL.
on the bat/ball combo,i could of told ya that 6 months ago.there never was anything in the wind about ss-usa changing thier ball or bat,just a bunch of cry babies who thought they might.
Dec. 26, 2009
Mr. Manassas
244 posts
It does seem to me that some people get to full of themselves in these threads. If some people want to stay anonymous why does it matter to anyone else. I agree with Butch in that all players are basically the same and looking to have fun playing softball even if they do have different opinions.
Dec. 26, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
mad dog, a proper defensive stance would have had the 3B's glove at no higher than knee-height on the hit, and probably a bit lower. So before we blame the bat how about checking to see if he was playing his position properly.
Dec. 26, 2009
Mr. Manassas
244 posts are missing the point. The speed through the infield needs to be kept at a reasonable speed.
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
guy is/was a good fielding 3b,he just didn't have time to react,and he was ready,its just that the senior bat is that hot(you know that tech),also think we were using a 47-525 ball,2005,(can anyone help on ball at that time,it was cal-cup) at the time,can't remember.
Dec. 26, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
Understood, and I don't advocate the special bats. But my real point was that guys have to do things the right way to try and help themselves before just crying that the equipment is to lively.

Just like the pitcher who doesn't move back, doesn't get into a good defensive position, has his glove hanging at his side, gets hit, and then whines about the batter hitting up the middle.

We can live without the special bats that no one under 50 can use, but guys still have to do what they can to help themselves before looking for help from others.
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
hey i do all that and still see balls go by me without being able to react.i was a SS in my younger yrs and a good one,but now a days if i'm not cheating(when senior bats are involed) to where i think a hitter might be going its almost impossible to go get them.
and also remember we are getting older and reflexes do slow down,don't care what kind of excerise you do.i supposed i could go do a happy gilmore at the local batting cage.
Dec. 26, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
No doubt it is tougher with the Ultras to field, and again I have said many times I don't get why we need to use special bats.

But you can't tell me you don't see guys who do little/nothing to help themselves and then just want to whine about the batter hitting the ball up the middle when it is a legitimate part of the field.
Dec. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
that i do see(and mostly noobies to the game)but they are few and far between,and i have no pity for them. so many have play 1 position(mostly pitchers) for all thier lives and did a good job at it until these senior bats came out and now have to deal with rockets coming back at them,alls it takes is one small prol with the background,bad bounce and etc to get someone seriously hurt.
Dec. 27, 2009
Men's 50
1375 posts
It is a sport, there will always be a risk. If we take all the risks out at the expense of the basics of the game we might as well all just go and play checkers.
Dec. 27, 2009
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's always been the case, Robert
that the pitcher has to be alert
or he's gonna get hurt.
That's nothin' new.
Why should the whole game change
because guys slow down,
don't get in shape
and don't want
to or shouldn't pitch anymore?

Keep cryin' the balls are too dangerous
and we're going to screens
which is looking better and better
all the time, to me. Sorry, Gary.

Safer is better when it doesn't take away the essence of our game
which is hitting the crap out of something with a bat and not having
to go to jail for it.

Thanks, SSUSA for moving in the direction of the senior softball community with respect to your latest
decisions but closer for us
is always better.
HR's as outs makes significantly
more hot balls
go through the middle.
Ask any long ball guy or would be
long ball guy and you'll find out
what we already know.
Let us swing out have more fun
and pitchers will be in less danger
of getting pinged.

Dec. 27, 2009
mad dog
Men's 65
4153 posts
again there is no protection for a pitcher with extra hrs as walks or singles.why is it that you have this very little regard for life that your willing to see someone killed or seriously injure(losing an eye and such)to further your ego to hit a ballover 400'.like i have been saying all along this bat/ball combo is way to hot for older type players.let us have some sanity put back into our game,or you will have the ball(52-275) you dread on seeing,lets use usssa bats at the most.
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