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Online now: 3 members: 88magnum, TABLE SETTER 11, Z Man; 109 anonymousDiscussion: Waiver or not to waiver...
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| Jan. 3, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Waiver or not to waiver... SSUSA has made a bold and positive step toward recognizing and supporting the senior softball community by keeping a lively ball standard and going with signing a waiver to keep pitchers from having to wear protective equipment. Again, Bravo and keep it up. There's still ineffective space between us. I've always thought a waiver would work to help us keep the level of the game a A waiver makes sense and would keep associations like SSUSA from being "sued" by anyone for negligence from using lively bats and balls. I've always been for the idea and thought signing off would simultaneously legally protect the association and our community's best interests as we move down the road better together. Anybody know anything more about waivers and whether they will work or stand up in court? Obviously, SSUSA does. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Trumpball might know. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, there are no absolutes with the law, or else there wouldn't be the need for courts. Waivers have failed to stand up in the past. Who knows about this one. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | doesn't matter with the waiver,it does nothing to protect the pitcher,waiver or not he is still seriously injured or dead,just keeps ss-usa from maybe paying oput some big $ to that person's family for being negligent for allowing equipment to hot for play. also the safety equipment that they talk about being required,is not all that good either,unless they mandate certain type that will protect against serious injure,and also require more coverage of the body. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | paying out is what it should of said. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Dead????? My God aren't you dramatic. Please tell us the number of pitchers who have died from a batted ball. What right does anyone have to mandate what I wear? Wear what you need to, but leave the rest of us out of your fears. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I don't mean to preempt SSUSA's right or desire to answer but I think they have or have had access to lawyers who would let them know what's what. Maybe I'm naive but I'd like to think that I, as a citizen, have the right, the power to not hold someone accountable for my condition or any condition I would "elect" to enjoin. Any parallels or dissimilarities that come to mind for anyone??? |
| Jan. 3, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Dirty, I can see the point being made by Mad Dog. Because someone hasnt been killed yet doesnt mean it cant happen. Of course we all hope it never will. Your point about mandated equipment, well I believe SSUSA has that right. Wear it, sign it, or dont play in SSUSA. Simple as it gets. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Have we gotten so afraid of experiencing/enjoying life itself and so greedy that everything important we do has to be, must be translated into dollars and cents leading to paydays for some and liability for others? I don't want to live or support a community where money, self interest, self-protection and greed undergird all activities even leisure time ones. Isn't it enough we have to cut throats in more ways than one to eke out a living in 2010? Sue this, I say and let us play our game and have some fun. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | E4. What's the big deal about someone being killed, really. I mean it's always been a possibility and has happened before in both hardball and softball. Why do we need protection now and from whom? Why would things change if someone got bonked for good. They shouldn't. Just a reminder of what we signed up for is all, right Gary? You know I heard that 5 per cent of all traffic accidents are unavoidable. That's much higher stat than the likelihood of getting bonked/killed by a batted ball anywhere in the country. By your logic, we should none of us drive because something very bad could happen to kill or maim us no matter what we do to try to protect ourselves. We're all just asking for it. Aren't we. Good God man, what are we coming to. Are we men or mice. (somebody pass the cheese) |
| Jan. 3, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | well lets see just to start, a pitcher was killed by a metal bat back in the 90's(an worth est).just this yr a pitcher has maybe lost the sight in one of his eye's(haven't heard the final on that one yet).the last yr or so pitcher's have been getting hit and having serious damage done to them to include broken bones and such. hey last yr one of the best pitchers going in A ball was hit in the face,so what does that mean for us older fellow's. before you say if you can't field a batted ball or you should go to another position or quit,who the hell do you think is gonna lob the ball up to you hero's so you can play the game.you all want these so called non-pitchers to quit or move,just tell me who will pitch now. joe you are just plain stupid with a comment about you don't care if someone dies,i hope it is one of your friends that it happens to, see how you'll feel about that.you do not belong in the human race with crap like that,just plain disgraceful. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I don't need to try to to demean you Robert you do it for me with you comments. Keep up the good work. Keep putting on the spotlight and contrast for my thinking and ideas. You're priceless and it's time you gave up pitching, Rob, it's scaring you to death. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | What about the waiver. Any ideas on why it would work or wouldn't work??? This is a key aspect of SSUSA's landmark decision and no one's got any comments? C'mon guys. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, It is a big deal when somebody dies. With comments like that no wonder some people like Garocket feel the way they do. One question would you say and feel the same way if it was your team mate? I can hear you now" What is the hold up he's dead drag him off the field so we can finish our game". I for one take exception to that comment. It shows the whole softball community what kind of person you really are. I believe you owe all of softball an apology. If you really want to know the legal aspects ask Kevin I'm sure he would have a good idea about the waiver. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | I also agree there is risk in every thing we do hell when I'm bass fishing I could drown. When I'm eating I could choke and on and on. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | you know what joe,you don't demean me,you demean the whole softball world with your stupid comments about not caring if someone dies playing a recreational sport.we do not get paid for any of this,but can end up putting a lot of money out for us to play,and here you are just saying real stupid stuff,and your an educator,pity the poor students in any class of yours. oh by the way if or when i might get scared to pitch i will step down,but at this moment i still do and will continue to pitch,sorry to burst your bubble there. as of the wavier,can't comment as it has not been challenge yet,but suspect a good lawyer will be able to get around it b/c of the hot equipment we use. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | In my experience, mostly in rec play, the waiver only serves to deter some from suing another player or the city when they are injured. It evidently has no legal power if conditions are negligent (a base not firmly secured, unsafe field conditions from mud or slush, an umpire letting a game go to fisticuffs, a broken screen not protecting a fan, etc.). The question is, with the studies that have been done on how extremely fast a batted ball can travel from a composite bat, whether SSUSA, and other associations allowing the "senior" bat, can be shown to be negligent in allowing play with such hot equipment, especially with players over 60 or 70 or even 80. Seems like SSUSA saw they had three ways to escape negligence: ban senior bats, soften the ball, or mandate that each pitcher sign a waiver. I think the waiver will prove to be the weakest of the choices when it comes to safety and lawsuits. My league mandates a pitching screen (and has for 10 years), because of a shot to the chest and the risk of stopping the pitcher's heart. But a chest protector is not mandated by SSUSA and "covered" by a waiver. Recent deadly injuries in baseball and softball have been from being hit in the temple or in the head from behind—those fatalities might have been prevented by wearing a helmet, but the SSUSA has not mandated this. A broken shin is not as serious as a busted knee, but SSUSA has not mandated knee guards, only shin guards. The next step for SSUSA seems to be to either additionally mandate helmet, chest protector, and knee guards, or to go to the softer ball. Which approach do you think they will take? And einstein, you do come off pretty callous with your comment that a pitcher being killed is no big deal. It's a HUGE deal if it could have been prevented by playing with single wall bats. |
| Jan. 3, 2010 Stretch14 Men's 50 202 posts | I see einstein made a few more friends on this thread. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | I won't comment on the legality of a waiver other than I have never heard of one that would stand up in court. As for pitchers killed in softball, there have been 9 since 2002. As for the waiver itself, it seems as though SS-USA is now admitting that there is an equipment problem by doing this. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | My comment was to say that there is danger in drinking the water or breathing the air and driving a car and is normal to the way we live. We have no sweat when it comes to slaughtering animals or humans in another part of the world yet we all can get our fannies in a bunch about the danger of "electively" playing a physical sport which has been there and the same since we were babies. That's both hypocritical and self serving. And I would put my record and stance on human rights and opposing the death and killing of people with ANYONE. Let's go to screens if it's too dangerous so we can enjoy the game sufficiently enough to keep on playing. OK. You said you been pitching with screens for a while now and it's still fun. I have too in Danville with the Renegades. And what about a ball that is lively AND safe? Is than not a possibility especially with today's technology? Because safe OR fun won't fly. It never will. We'll start bringing screens. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 JBTexas Men's 70 434 posts | waiver only makes you think twice about pitching but doesn't cut down injury. Look like this message board has become a personal agenda outlet for some. Only my second posting in three years, but enough is enough. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Joe, As a ball player I have the utmost respect for your knowledge of the game and skills while playing. However I have lost all respect for you as a man. "Whats the big deal about someone being Killed!" Incredible, simply incredible statement. You cant have it both ways Joe, either you respect life or you do not. There is no middle ground. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | JB,who ya play for(legends?).i'll be with 60 spurs this coming yr(first yr 60 so take it easy on me). yes the board has been tilted some lately,yes we all would like to be able to blast away,but we give up a balanced type game for that.there are a lot of players who like to be able to play some defense,but with the tech we have now,it is almost impossible to do now. E4/E6,ya just don't know about him. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 frampton Men's 55 55 posts | Concerning the enforceability of a waiver, lots depends on the exact language of course. It IS difficult to waive the right to sue someone for the latter's negligence (and pretty much impossible to waive the right to sue for gross negligence or intentional conduct). However, in this case -- where the "waiver" is basically an agreement to assume risks one knows are inherent in a given activity, in known circumstances -- chances are better that it's enforceable, at least in California. (Not sure about other states' laws.) In fact, in California, a waiver may not even be necessary under the circumstances; there was a Cal Supreme Court decision 20 years or so ago that barred liability for the risks that one knows or should know are inherent in a sport/recreational activity. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | E4. You miss the point I was trying to make on how normal if not necessary danger is to many of the things we do, have to do and want to do in life. That's the point. You reveal more about yourself in your comment about me than you do about me. Robert and Butch, too. If "safer" is that important to you you should never hit or play with or endorse current equipment yet you guys have and continue to do so. And if safer is that important to you the screen is the way to go to ensure fun and pitcher protection. That's why debate is so good, E. The community gets to judge arguments and those who make 'em irrespective of what we might want them to think. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Mike, Terrific info on Waivers and California. Thanks. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 stick8 1991 posts | Einstein, to answer your original question waivers don't always work. I'm not a lawyer but I used to work for a slip and fall attorney and a damn good one. Trust me, this guy could pick a waiver apart and make a very compelling argument contrary to the intent of that waiver. Slip and fall lawyers are semantics experts. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | You mean, Stick, it depends on what the meaning of "is" is. And I did not have sexual relations with that screen no matter what Butch, E4 and Robert say. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, Quote "What is the big deal about somebody getting killed" plain and simple Wizard. You can try and hide behind the curtain but it is there for everyone to read. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Everything said has a context, Butch which give them meaning. You really don't do justice to yourself or maybe you do, harping on just the words. You're fangs are starting to show. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | I only have a smile on my face wizard. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Joe, If thats the case please express yourself in the manner you want us to understand. When you come out with a statement like this one, it doesnt leave any room for conjecture. And we have photos of you and that SCREEN> =) |
| Jan. 4, 2010 stick8 1991 posts | LOL Einstein that only scratches the surface of how the game is played. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Why would you be "smiling", Butch. Smilin' at 'something so horrific' as you said earlier??? Are you a sadist? Keep talkin', you're doing great, and you're making ME look good and as anyone knows who's seen me that's awfully tough to do. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Letting lawyers decide how we should live, Stick? No thanks. With common sense, care and including everyone we gotta be able to do better than that. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 stick8 1991 posts | Actually Einstein, the system is set up to let those lawyers live and live like kings--at taxpayer expense. And if things keep going as they are, "you ain't seen nothing yet" |
| Jan. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Stick, I'm remembering now why all those dead lawyer jokes were so funny. Oh my God. Did I said "dead". I apologize to all lawyers past, present and future. Whew! That's was close, eh Butch? |
| Jan. 4, 2010 GT Men's 60 162 posts | Mad dog. Should be an interesting meet on Feb. 20th. See your with C----Ed. Spurs are coming to Houston. Look me up. Be glad to meet you. You won't have any problem finding me. lol JB, hope your team is coming also. Who do you play for? GT Houston |
| Jan. 4, 2010 JBTexas Men's 70 434 posts | AC Legends, don't know about Houston yet, still checking with the guys, played last year with Tanel there, great except for the rain storm. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Smiling watching you the Wizard try to weave your magic with all the back pedaling, ducking and darting about your comment. Remember behind your curtain you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time. Keep smiling. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 LP 317 posts | these are the same bats and the same balls that have been used for years, i pitch and my skills have slowed abit i'm 60 now, but i know i can still field my position very well. if you are a pitcher and cant handel the heat get away from the fire, a player takes a risk every time we step on the field, worse injuries i have ever seen are the badhops to and infielder, is SSUSA going to make and infielder sign a waiver, how about the outfielder stepping in a hole and breaking and ankle or pulling a muscle, are they going to have to sign a waiver. just play the game to the best of your abilities and if you cant handle a position find another. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, Go easy on the dead jokes as I have received two e-mails from players one lost his son and the other his brother in Iraq and they are not amused. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Butch. Read my lips. Game, set and match. Time to take a deep breath and get ready to play ball this year. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 busdriver 18 posts | I cant believe my eyes! he said so what if someone is killed! do you believe he said that!what a joke he is |
| Jan. 4, 2010 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Okay Wizard I'll be ready you can count on that. Your fangs are showing!! |
| Jan. 4, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Joe, you are a lot like a stunt rider on a bike, you pedal equally well both ways. Lively balls & Warm Bats! Thats what my HALF of the Majority want. =) Menifee this weekend, upper 70's, clear skies! Can it get any better? |
| Jan. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Both ways? Warm bats? Just what are you trying to say, man? Who you been talking to? Don't believe a word he said. I'll scratch his eyes out... Oops, wrong website. The war's over, E, and we're lookin' forward to a good year of playing ball and having fun. Good luck in Menifee. Sounds great. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | GT,would love to be there,but i'll be in Fl at the CST that curt hollis is throwing,that weekend.guess i might need to tell ED,LOL. |
| Jan. 4, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Thanks Joe, have a great year! |
| Jan. 4, 2010 Jano23 Men's 65 97 posts | The way I see it, the bats and balls we use now in SSUSA tournaments are perfect. Pretty much everything in life is a compromise. You can’t say that “safety is the number one priority” and mean that it is all-important, because if it were, we would be using rolled up newspapers to hit nerf balls. Obviously, there are lots of priorities that need to be balanced. Clearly, having fun is an important one. Most people I have encountered don’t have fun hitting a sock, even if the other team has to hit it also. As a matter of fact, they will usually moan and complain about how crappy the ball is. All of this has been covered ad nauseam in previous threads on this message board. I don’t know what has started this obsession with changing things. There have been numerous authoritative-sounding guys on here quoting statistics indicating that, of all the injuries that occur in softball, the class of injury in which the pitcher is harmed by a batted ball is very small percentage-wise. Of these injuries, there is the question of how many of them would be mitigated by using other bats or balls. Also, it is currently perfectly legal for the pitcher to armor up. I don’t buy the argument that this should be mandated because some guys won’t do it otherwise, out of a fear of looking like a sissy. Such guys ARE sissies. I also don’t buy the technology-is-hitting-your-homers argument. Even with an UltraII and a good ball, you still have to hit the ball well to get it over the fence. I played on a 50AAA team in Phoenix last year. By my recollection, our team hit 18 homers in the tournament and 17 of them came from 2 guys. Clearly the bats and balls are not turning ordinary men into supermen. We have been playing for years with this same equipment and we like it. To whatever extent that it is obvious that our game is unsafe, people who elect to play are aware of this and accept the risk when they play. SSUSA please don’t “fix” what ain’t broken. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 Lefty Men's 75 721 posts | Jano23 I agree with you 100%. Our team hardly ever gets to our HR limit and we have pretty big ball players. Joe Lefty Falcon Wild Bunch Softball 60 Major Birmingham 55 AAA |
| Jan. 5, 2010 MaverickAH 58 posts | I think that Omar K., trumpball & framptom are taking the discussion in the direction it needs to go regarding the subject of a waiver. Personally, I don't think that a signed waiver would be worth the paper it's written on if someone decided to fight it. I'm not a lawyer but I cold have it vacated in court in short order! SSUSA's biggest problem would be proving due diligence. They'd have to be able to prove that the equipment used is within their performance standards & that they have a program in place to ensure that it does. Will a waiver indemnify them from a shaved bat? No. Will a waiver protect them from a bat that performs over 1.20? No (This is a distinct possibility with senior bats. The U2 already comes under this category!) A waiver sounds nice but it's just not going to work if someone decides to fight it. IMHO, it just might lead to the one thing its proponents do not want & that it a change in the bat/ball standards! THAT is the only way that the SSUSA can put any teeth into any waiver. It would be ironic, wouldn't it? :) |
| Jan. 5, 2010 CSinc Men's 50 13 posts | I really really would question that a waiver would hold up under many court situations, if challenged. What I would hope that the face mask rule will due is take away the stigma that many players attach to wearing the mask. I am a pitcher, and typically don't wear a mask...but have in certain games where the opponent obviously had no regard for their rivals pitcher. Any pitcher with much experience can sense early on when they are involved in a game against a bunch of thugs. My point is that if the mask is a requirement,the five percent (or less) that wear them currently will be joined by a much higher percentage that will, because it is the most logical thing to do in our world of softball as things stand today to keep pitcher safe. If you don't want to wear it great, but assume the risk. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Good comments, Jano and Mav. Thoughtful, informative and interesting. Waivers have real potential. Also teams could be required to provide their own insurance like corps do to independent contractors. (I'm going into the insurance business. That's where all our money goes anyway and then when you lose it all you get bailed out by the republicans) Personally, I don't like any of it because it takes OUR experience away from US and turns it over to money-makers, lawyers and insurance corps and what's left may not be worth investing in. All to say, we ALL need to be careful, and well defined regarding our own needs and interests and be as giving not taking, as we can possibly be so we can ALL turn this corner, better together for senior softball. We're all in this together and I'm sure can figure out ways to keep everyone involved and our game alive if that's what we really want to do. We all need to check ourselves for our motivations regarding what's best for ourselves and senior ball and be willing to let go any ignorant and greedy stuff that will get in the way. It's time for people/entities to come forward defining themselves convincingly for US, all of us and when recognized they will get our support and help to put and keep it all together. Otherwise, we'll get pulled apart by self interest and lose the great oppty we once had to grow better and more together down the road. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | CSink. Just saw your post. Terrific. I'm going through the process about masks and protection, too. Screens is still the way to go if you really want to protect the pitchers of this there is no doubt and keep the game alive at the same time. And OK. You have NO credibility or approval from me and the senior softball community making any personal comments about me especially negative ones that are self serving and incorrect while hiding from sight. Real men don't do that or get away with it. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 SSUSA Staff 3484 posts | SSUSA is currently developing the language of the Pitcher's Release to be signed by any pitcher who elects NOT to use the minimal protective equipment as recently enacted by rule. However, Liability/Release issues are already fully covered in the standard Managers Agreement Form executed annually by all Managers prior to their team's first participation in an SSUSA event each year. The new language will simply serve as an affirmation of those items, including, but not limited to: • There is an inherent risk of injury for participants in playing any sport, including Senior Softball; • SSUSA has enacted a Pitchers protective equipment rule designed to reduce those inherent risks specific to Pitchers; and • Any Pitcher declining to use the minimal protective equipment does so willingly and with full acceptance of the result(s) should he/she be injured by a batted ball striking a part of the body which would have otherwise been protected. The relevant portions of the Manager Agreement Form are reproduced below. The entire Agreement is available from the FORMS page of this web site. __________ "...As manager or representative of my team, I agree to make my players aware of the following conditions for participation. If any player does not agree with these conditions, I will not allow them to participate and I will immediately inform the Tournament Director. 1. Release (Injury to Player or to Personal Property) In consideration of acceptance of our entry, we waive any and all claims for ourselves and our heirs and hold harmless Senior Softball World Championships, Inc., (hereafter, “SSWCI”) its Board of Directors, Senior Softball USA, LLC (hereafter, “SSUSA”), any municipal or park facility employees, their agents or employees and Tournament Directors and sponsors from and against any and all loss liability, charges and expenses (including attorney’s fees) and causes of action of whatever character which may arise by travel to and from, and participation in, SSWCI events. 2. Player Responsibility for Procuring Insurance We are fully aware that SSWCI and SSUSA do not carry, or provide, any medical insurance for any participants and that we are solely responsible for procuring our own insurance and that our team is responsible for procuring its own insurance. 3. Assumption of Risk I recognize that we assume all risks involved arising from our participation in this Tournament and we knowingly undertake the inherent risks of the sport. 4. Softball Skills I am familiar with the skills required to participate in an event sponsored by SSWCI and SSUSA (including batting, fielding, running and throwing) and have satisfied myself that my team and its players are proficient in these skills..." |
| Jan. 5, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | What, no narcissistic behavior mentioned ? ... lol |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Looks good, Dave. You forget free coffee for Einstein and all his friends, both of them. That's a deal breaker. It looks great to me. Frampton or Stick or anyone with an idea or some experience with these things--what do you think? |
| Jan. 5, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | SSUSA staff: your waiver form sounds very much like the one our city rec department uses for all players in its leagues, although I haven't read it for years. One difference is that it was not just the manager who signed it, but all players on a team had to individually sign that they had read it. Point was that it didn't hold up in court when it was shown that the city was negligent (poorly fastened bases, allowing play on slick or rutted fields, broken field sprinklers causing a running hazard, too many lights out on evening fields, etc.). Guys would get hurt and still file a claim against the city where negligence was a factor. Those claims were usually settled rather than face a trial and lose. So they worked fine for many teams (all of guys on my teams over the years just took care of their own medical costs for the normal risks and injuries of softball), but not where someone perceived negligence. My only question was whether the current allowed bat/ball combo might be seen by some courts to be negligent considering the diminishing skills of older players (especially when leagues and associations with YOUNGER better-reflex players ban the combo and when other senior associations ban the hot bats). |
| Jan. 5, 2010 salio2k Men's 60 547 posts | Doesn't the last item cover your question? 4. Softball Skills I am familiar with the skills required to participate in an event sponsored by SSWCI and SSUSA (including batting, fielding, running and throwing) and have satisfied myself that my team and its players are proficient in these skills" |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I with you, Sal. Forewarned is forearmed. Maybe disclaimer about being familiar with the range of possibilities given current equipment performance. That bats and balls can function better and worse than their specifications under certain conditions and let's go play ball. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Sal, I suppose this part could be construed that way, but perhaps only if SSUSA was universally acknowledged as THE elite association in the world with the hottest composite bats and lively balls allowed. This would mean, for example, composed exclusively of players better than ASA quality which bans the hot bats evidently for safety reasons. Or of any younger teams anywhere which ban the hot composite bats. Considering the large number of AA and AAA teams, some of whom play teams vastly superior to them in SSUSA tournaments (especially in seeding rounds), it might not hold up that every member can be expected to handle the hottest batted balls. Einstein might be right that a specific waiver delineating the use of Ultra II level bats and the Stote balls would be more effective. Maybe even a note on the difference in velocity from a cool morning to a 100º+ afternoon. In our litigious society, I kind of doubt it. First guy injured for life by a Miken rocket, even if he signed a waiver, would likely have lawyers ready to sue on the grounds of negligence (wait till they discover the potential for a batted ball arriving at a pitcher in a fraction of a second). |
| Jan. 5, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | omar, i think you are on the right trail with that,also what about the broke in senior bat that far exceeds the 1.20 bpf.i see nothing good of this wavier,since we will continue to use equipment that will far exceed safe playing conditions.lawyers are gonna have a field day with this. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | You're already baked OK. You're willing to change the entire game for everyone to keep from maybe being sued and maybe losing but probably not. Because ASA does something you assume it's credible or appropriate for seniors or anybody else for that matter??? C'mon man. There's gotta be a ton reasons seen and unseen why ASA, any corporation or anybody does anything. And ASA has been trying to deal with bat cheaters by killing the game for everyone elsewhich is precisely what we want to keep from happening in senior ball. OK you make a good point that we are in a litigious society but that doesn't mean we have to go along for the ride. We should serve notice that the senior softball community must be recognized and will serve notice on behalf of our justifiable wants and needs. Maybe we have to increase our self interest to counter balance the self interest of the others in the mix. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Johnny Hose. You listenin'???? |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Also, OK when you make the argument that seniors are slower than younger guys and therefore vulnerable we also hit the ball with less power, energy, timing and conditioning, too, right? They cancel and in Vegas it's called a push. And what judge wouldn't be moved by friends of the defendent us who would stand up for an association like SSUSA that was trying to accommodate us. There's lots of ways to influence others if there's a reason and the will. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, the problem is with the special bats this loss of power, energy, timing, and conditioning you describe has been counteracted by technology. How many of us routinely see guys hit balls further now than they were 30 years ago? So while reflexes have no doubt slowed down, the technology of the bats has allowed guys to be "Miken hitters". |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | And look at this. Let's say A sues B and it takes a ton of lawyers and time and someone has a pay day 5 years down the road after millions are spent. Who's gonna end up paying for it all??? Give up? Us. And if the insurance companies can't pay they'll get bailed out by their rich republican friends and who pays, again. Us. And who gets charged more next year to cover the cost of going through the whole stinking process. Us. And who's taxes go up to pay for more courts and ministers because so many of em are involved in Bull Shite law suits???? Us. Sue this. It's about time we put a stop to all this ridiculous crap while our people go hungry, without medical care, our soldiers get abused and sent into harms way for nothing that can't be settled by mature adults anywhere and go uncared for, the planet gets hotter and the oceans become toxic. C'mon man. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I know Gary and it truly bothers you because your a sincere traditionalist but as many have said just because you're using a good bat doesn't mean you know how to hit. I've stunk it up with good bats as many of us have and I've seen teams of monster hitters with good bats shut down by terrific pitchers and good defense. So, in all, it has to do with balance and a little hotter bats are all right for us in my opinion Gary. You still have to hit the ball with good timing and as you know being a pitcher you're trying to disrupt the timing of the hitters even the smallest amount. And remember Gary the balls have gotten so much less that the hotter bats have to compensate. We used to play with single walls and super blue dots and believe me heavy hard balls would scream all over the field and nobody said anything then. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | i love it use any reason to keep hitting the hottest equipment in softball.to hell with life or limb as long as you get to hit a ball 400'.i will tell you i can hit a ball as hard with a senior bat(or any composite for that matter),if not harder than i did with a metal bat years back.so no the batted ball speed is not going down as the reflex's are getting slower. i do workout and keep in shape for batting, strength is easy to keep,not much you can do to make your reflex's as quick as they used to be. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, I agree it takes much more than just the bat, but let's be honest. We have all seen guys who are hitting harder and further with the special bats than they ever did befoe. And it is not just the liveliness of these bats. They have HUGE sweet spots. You don't need to be as skilled of a hitter to succeed with them. It is almost impossible, though I know if can happen, to mishit a ball with a Miken. The sweet spot is just so big. I know the balls have been dumbed down, and I know a good pitcher can have a big impact on all of this. But do you agree that some (many?) seniors are hitting further with these bats now than they did 20 years ago with whatever balls and bats they were using then? Like I have said, I don't care what bats and balls are used as long as no one wants to (a) take away my right to field my position with PPRs(b) make the infield look like a miniature golf hole. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | pup, I agree with that. You can work to make the reflexes decrease more slowly, but the decrease is inevitable. As is a decrease in vision that comes with age. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Yes, Gary. I'd say some. But 20 years ago when I was 42, wow, I could put a charge into a ball and make it go 340 with a good wooden bat and Super blue dot ball. Now I make it go 340 with a better bat and a lesser ball. But you're right about the sweet spot. That can't be argued. Personally I don't mind. When I'm pitching I like to take pride like all of us do in getting guys to "miss" the sweetspot, top it or pop it up. That's the same regardless of the bat right? I've hot Parnell off balance one time and he hit it 305 instead of 405. In meaningful ways we both knew I got him that time even though it still carried the fence. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Robert, try listening and thinking sometime...it's never too late to come home. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Einstein, everybody in senior softball knows that you are a more powerful hitter than most—probably in the top 1%, so your experience with wood bats, single walls, Mikens, etc. is not too helpful. As you note, you were a home run hitter with woodies. As I've stated many times, I was NOT a home run hitter. Never hit one in 52 years of playing and I saw it all—wooden bats, Blue Dots, Super Blue Dots, aluminum bats, single wall, double wall. Then I get my Ultra II and suddenly I'm hitting 300 feet, enough to carry in many parks! I even hit 290 with a mishit. What's the only difference (other than I've played in leagues since 1953 and am fatter, slower, wearing glasses for diminished vision, and reflexes have slowed)? The high technology of the Miken. And I am not alone. Guys that I have played with for years who NEVER hit a long ball are now popping them with their super bats (not home runs, necessarily, but loooong balls). They are hitting the hole where good shortstops can't get to them. Point is, we have lost the balance of the game, and this has diminished the symphony of offense, defense (including pitching), base running, and strategy. This emphasis on offense—it's not luck. It's not guys getting stronger after age 50. It's not shorter fields. It's not better technique. It's not poorer pitching. It's not lower arcs. It's not a hotter ball. It's the bats. Love 'em or hate 'em, it's the bats that have changed the game I love. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | And they've made it better for us on the whole and more fun. How many teams in some SSUSA last year? Over 300. I don't say you have an opinion. You're a singles guy and a pitcher. Of course you're going to favor a less lively combo. Of course you are if you're thinking of yourself. I"m a pitcher, too I would pitch even if they didn't let me hit. And I would be better off too as a pitcher with the lesser combo but it will KILL our game and the majority of players feel that way and have won the day. My point to you, whoever you are is you're point is the minority position and you play it like its the majority and it's not. It's over, OK. Game set and match. Good balls and bats for next year by all the major senior associations. It's you and Butch and Robert who can't let go. You lost the argument. You are wrong as to what most of us want and need. Now, let's go on to something else and get ready for the new season. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | try listening to what,your rant and rave over about not caring if someone gets killed,or disabled. what is it about having to play a game that includes defense,running and some strategy to it,that scares you.instead you just have to try and belittle someone for wanting a safer game than what we have,just so you can stroke your ego.why don't you listen. oh if you were using a wood bat 20 yrs back,well needless to say i have to throw a BS flag on that as the start of the cu-31 al bats had been out for 5 yrs by then.i don't even remember ever seeing anyone using wood then. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 ShaneV Men's 55 393 posts | Anybody been killed or seriously injured driving to the ballpark? And they still let us drive! I just don't get all this. I understand the risks of all of the activities I engage in. Most of the players I know are not interested in playing any other game with any other ball and any lesser bats. I cannot argue with the fact that the bats have changed the game, and have changed my game. I will say this, if any ever says he no longer wants to pitch or play an infield position given the current game, I would never think less of him. Pitching and playing infield is a bit scary these days, which is why it's also exciting. Climbing Everest, the greatest challenge for any mountain climber, can kill you. Some of the best are doing it every year, and some are dying. And it's a sport too, isn't it? ShaneV |
| Jan. 5, 2010 ShaneV Men's 55 393 posts | And another thing - I saw 50AAA guys (opponents) that appeared to be hitting the ball as hard as they could right at infielders feet, before dark and under the lights. I never considered this as a hitting strategy, but with our bats we might see it more. I've always tried not to hit at any defender and that probably stems from the many years playing without current technology. I suppose if I decided to try that strategy, I might become the first in this decade to seriously or mortally injure someone. Hmmm. I think I'll stick to what I know. ShaneV |
| Jan. 5, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | After all the talk, it finally hit me why, (in my opinion) we, yes myself included, love the Hot Bat/Lively Ball combo. We are getting older and trying to relive our youth. We cant hit the ball as far or as hard with any other bat or a less lively ball, so we, like so many sports, embrass technology to make up for what age has taken from us. Its nothing to be afraid of or ashamed of, it is after all lifes way of telling us we are mortal after all. |
| Jan. 5, 2010 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Joe, I don't know why you want to bring me into your conversations but Mr. Wizard I have said the bat and Stote ball are fine by me. So lets play. Oh by the way with home run limits and then outs this year so there is your game, set and match. Keep on smiling Wiz. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | You're as self centered as they come, Butch. You want OUr game to fit YOUR game. You lost because it's still our game. Thanks, again to SSUSA, NCSSA, LVSSA, SPA, Huntsman and the rest for listening, caring and moving in our direction. We got your back, too. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | shanev,there have been 9 pitchers killed by batted balls since 2002(according to reliable sources). butch you do know no matter what you say,your going to be wrong,here you are agreeing with this wizard and he can't see it. huntsman games have not had the best of balls the last 2 years,but guess what,it was a great time had by all. ncssa, who cares,its a little podunk assoc that operates in 1 small area of cali. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Robert. Thinking and listening. Give 'em a try. Wizard was my analogy, too. I get residuals every time it's used. Thanks. Of course, you and Butch being as principled as you are about safety and dangerous equipment wouldn't think of playing with lively equipment, would you? Endangering yourselves and others for "stupid" "selfish" reasons wouldn't be something principled guys like you would do, right? Fat chance. Podunk association, Robert. Over 2000 players expected for this year. The association that the best teams in the country play in, year round??? Sounds just like someone who doesn't listen or think for himself. Keep up the good work. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts | Wizard, You are taking things a little personal, your fangs are showing. Wiz I am a man and will play with any equipment that is used any where at any time. You on the other hand have to have a certain ball and bat to play. Before you make an assesment of me being self centered you may want to look in the mirror first or where you looking in the mirror when you said it. Keep on smiling. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, does it really make guys feel all that good to be better just because of someone else's technology? |
| Jan. 6, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Here is the difference. Some accidents are unavoidable, some are. There is equipment that will greatly reduce the injury of any impact to the body. I bet out of the 9 pitchers killed with a softball over the last 8 years everyone of them would still be here if they had been hit using other bats and balls. And I bet their families would be a whole lot happier today. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 salio2k Men's 60 547 posts | Are you saying that 9 pitchers were killed by batters using an U2? ALL of them? I would like to see this report. If this is not what you meant, please explain. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 salio2k Men's 60 547 posts | trumpball........I cannot believe that you would make such a statement! Will you be selling the new GRAY ULTRA? |
| Jan. 6, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | No not all with u2's as a matter of fact only 6 of them were with composite bats. The truth remains that the equipment performace exceeded the reaction time of the human body. All legal action's were settled out of court. Why do you think that companies would settle instead of going to trial? Could it be that RHI's reactions studies prove that the equipment is out playing the reaction time of humans? |
| Jan. 6, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Sorry that's RIH. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 salio2k Men's 60 547 posts | Most of the associations allow composite bats. What are we to use? At least SSUSA, NCSSA, LVSSA and SPA have rules pertaining to the equipment. If we choose to play, we accept the consequences. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Butch, you're a player just looking for any edge, a laugh at someone's expense and don't stand for anything. Nothing original, tit for tat and unprincipled. Keep on name calling as it reveals both who you are and who you're not. You offer and say nothing anybody serious need be concerned about. Kevin. I got my arm broken by a ball Clatta hit that I would have snagged had I been paying attention as I should have been as I have explained numerous times. That was on me. With all respect, can't we assume that none of these guys were interviewed and that we don't know their stories or frames of mind? Maybe they were following their pitches too long like lots of us do. Maybe they were fearful in a way that locked them up which can happen. (deer in the headlights) Maybe they were preoccupied thinking about a bad at-bat or terrible pitch selection from a previous at bat. Maybe things are not going so good at home and making normal concentration more difficult. Don't think I'm saying it's good for anyone to get hurt but to me we been dealing with this danger all our lives. The games always been dangerous right from little league. There was a kid in high school who was talking to the coach at 3rd base while they were having BP and got hit in the head and died. Why change now and why jeopardize the experience of something we truly enjoy doing and investing in? |
| Jan. 6, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Here is another interesting fact. Not one player has been killed in a competitive softball tournament. All have occured in a league or recreational game. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | That is interesting. League and Rec in SF is mostly nightime with guys playing after work, after meals and drinks, in the dark oftentimes late at night (past bedtime). Interesting. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Einstein's comments on state of mind are certainly possible factors in injuries. Softball can make you pay a price if you are not alert. But it got me thinking about my last significant injuries. Broke my thumb through my glove on a line drive up the middle. Caught it cleanly right in front of my face. A ball hit that hard is on the bat, not me. Broke my finger through my glove on another line drive. That was on me since it wasn't that hard hit and I misplayed it. Got hit on the knee while pitching. Couldn't get my glove down in time. Only batted ball to knock me out of a game in my life. That one on the bat, not me. Took one off the shin that hit so hard it ricocheted to first base and the batter would have been out if my first baseman was alert (or not alarmed by the shot off me). Had a knot for several months. That one on the bat. Another line drive to the side and injured the base of my gloved thumb by activating my arthritis. Ball rebounded to second base and batter thrown out. The ball was severely knuckling. Call it a draw. Big bruiser hits a smoker waist high. I glove it for the out. He rushes out concerned, apologizing, saying he never hits up the middle like that. I believe him since I've pitched tournaments against him before. His next at bat, he does the same thing. I had backed up 12 feet and was ready. Line drive coming waist high, I partially deflect it, hits my stomach. Bruise lasts more than a month. I picked up the rebound and threw him out at first. He won't make eye contact. Another one on the bat, not me. Trumpball's right that speed of ball off hot bat now exceeds reaction time of human body. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Certainly as it relates to you, OK but I haven't experienced that yet. Also, the more you anticipate that each and every ball will come to you your reactions actually begin during the swing which is a much longer time to react than if someone clocked it in a lab environment. This is critical if you get what I'm saying. Reaction time is a given for it's duration but not for it's starting time. You can make it a longer interval by starting earlier. If you ARE right and I don't believe you for me and lots of other pitchers than we need to have screens to protect the pitcher and the liveliness of our game. Eric. I like it better knowing who you are. My fondness for you is a matter of record and undiminished. See you at NorCal. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | How does anyone even think of suing in these cases? You know the risk when you step onto the field. You know what legal equipment is allowed before you step onto the field. What possible justification for a suit could there be? |
| Jan. 6, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Dirty, Do you mean the "special" bats"? Kidding aside, legal bats, heck yes, no problem, but it is the illegal ones where the problem comes in. Same for iced up balls or field conditions, that were not considered or cared about. Goes further than those too. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | How come no one is fighting for titanium bats to be legal again? These bats came with a warning to inform the oposing players that you are using a high performance bat and that ball speeds are higher than a normal bat. Why not fight for these to be made legal again? All of the ti bats have less ball speed than all of the good senior bats that are broken in. In fact the senior bats exceed the ti's by a good margine once broken in. Another thing about them is they never get better as you hit them. So even though the don't pass the test by .02 bpf they stay that way their entire life. Senior bats pass at test time but very quickly surpass all standards and pass the ti's early in their life span. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 JamesLG 420 posts | Well Folks: I think Dirty has it plain and simple in his last post. If you don't like the equipment just don't play. I would like to know how many of the posters who are against using senior bats and a beer or two and get in there car a drive? This game should make you feel younger we should not get paranoid and play in a bubble. Thanks: James |
| Jan. 6, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | trumpball, What we have now available is better than they were as well as anything else made. They didn't hold up well either. |
| Jan. 6, 2010 JamesLG 420 posts | I messed that post up. It should have been, how many of the posters against using senior bats have a few beers and get in there cars and drive? Thanks: James |
| Jan. 6, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Just like driving impaired (after a few beers), the Senior Bats give us a false sense of being better then we are. Several posts suggest they many pitchers can field anything hit at them, I doubt thats the case. I suggest thats Senior Bravado talking. I dont doubt many players still have skills, but to consistently field any object hit at 140 mph from 55 feet is tempting fate. I of all players do not advocate change, but in the case of Hot Bats and Lively Balls I say this, you wanna have a few beers? Give me your keys! Just my opinion..... |
| Jan. 6, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Right on, E. Gary, right on. In the world of common sense and real men there's no room for law suits. Law suits are for lawyers and paydays at everyone else's expense, by and large. I've been hit countless times and never wanted to confiscate a bat or ball or sue anyone. Kevin, you know more about bats then me but I swung a titanium bat, twice in one game, a couple of years ago. Popped the first one up to the second baseman and watched the second one go 375 +, effortlessly and high to right center. The bat was awesome. |
| Jan. 7, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | I have only been hit twice, and only once did it do any damage. Broken thumb. The thought of suing anyone NEVER crossed my mind. If it hit me it was right at me. Who else should get blamed but me for not catching a ball right at me? I have to agree with James. There is a much higher risk when driving after drinking than when playing softball. |
| Jan. 7, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Right on, Gary and James. It's about context and perspective and not the specific aspect of danger that being hit by a softball means. We live in a dangerous society and 'caveat emptor' or let the buyer beware has broad extended meaning. |
| Jan. 7, 2010 CSinc Men's 50 13 posts | For me, as a pitcher, it is very simple. I am going to protect myself with a mask when the situation dictates that I should. If I don't have myself protected, I certainly will not blame anyone else for my indescretion. When I started playing 30+ years ago, I remember many occasions of pitchers going down using Bombats and Blue Dots, I was young and had little bat control and put a few guys down myself in my early days. Most senior players our not out to knock anybody off the mound. Pitchers have been in danger from the beginning of time, surely more so now than 30 years ago, but I think maybe not as much as may be percieved. The balls we played with back then sure seemed as hard as any rock at the quarry. I was much more in fear 10-15 years ago when the DeMarinis first came out and the balls were not limited to compensate, than I am now days...that being said I am still going to wear protection, because many of us will still be in danger on the mound regardless of the bat/ball combination, simply due to the reduce reflexes of aging. |
| Jan. 7, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | How many of us actually think about the danger of playing before or while we are on the field? Bat control? Whats that? =) |
| Jan. 7, 2010 CSinc Men's 50 13 posts | I hope I'm not the only pitcher out there that realizes the danger of the position every time I step out there. For the most part I'm still playing against 20-30 year olds in local leagues, and some of these young ones rip the sh** out of the ball...I'm not too proud to say I think about the danger of being out on the mound, which is why I use steps to protect myself and am ready and alert after each pitch. If I need to explain the bat control statement I will, when I was younger, I had no clue where I was going to hit, it was just rip it and run like hell...now I spray the ball around the field with some level of control, be it left field, right field or wherever. So by bat control, I guess I mean I have some sense of where I expect to place the ball. |
| Jan. 7, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | CSinc Sorry, I was being facitious with the Bat Control remark. |
| Jan. 7, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | hey if anyone wants to know,ebay has the worth pitchers helmet for $49.95 plus shipping. it is sad we have to armor to play now a days to have "our fun",oh well just means we can't see how to play and enjoy our game i guess, without seriously hurting someone. |
| Jan. 7, 2010 CSinc Men's 50 13 posts | No offense taken E4/E6. Thanks |
| Jan. 8, 2010 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | Trumpball, the only time that I hit a Titanium bat we when we hit at the Smoky about 6 or 7 years ago. I wasn't impressed at all. Maybe we should go to the ti bats! ha, ha! |
| Jan. 8, 2010 J R 251 posts | As an officer of an association that has SSUSA insurance and follows SSUSA rules.I guess we now have to force members to wear masks, and shin guards.The other association that i am a past president is in the process of trying to switch to SSUSA insurance and follow it's rule book. We all know if you have rules someone has to enforce them.So players pay to play and cannot play unless they wear the equipment.Why would anyone pitch.Wow changing pitchers becomes a great clock manager.Manager can easily run out clock while pitcher gets on his equipment.Not so sure softball minds drew up this rule. |
| Jan. 9, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I think direction is important now for us to focus on. There's no magic bullet or solution to all our situations and problems unless we do what Gary says and go back to no rules softball with good bats and balls. We must be concerned that decisions are an honest attempt at being inclusive and/or serving the best interests of the senior softball community as defined and acknowledged by us. It's still is a great time for a representative association of ball players who would join and vote on all these matters to provide an active reference and direction for all pertinent issues. |
