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| Aug. 17, 2012 steve65 Men's 65 177 posts | Tournament Prizes Just finished the Hoosier Classic and today checked the pairings for Northern Nationals. We played two different teams three times each in Shelbyville and actually start the seedings in Lansing against one of them. Our bracket in Lansing will have only three teams. It seems this problem crosses the lines from one organization to another--we pay several hundred dollars entrance fee and in reality get nothing in return except saying we played which in my opinion is ok-but we all really want to win against the best and have the best tournaments possible--what could make more teams want to attend--prize money--say you pay $500 to enter--what if the prize for winning was $1000--common sense tells me that more teams would enter meaning more money for the tournament and more money for the local economy and with the winnings a team could enter more tournaments---I believe SSUSA and SPA could initiate this and the associations would grow. Any other thoughts on this?? Just My Opinion |
| Aug. 18, 2012 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | There are some very good Ts that do award cash as prizes in CA. Reasonable entry fees at about 300 but some are NSA, both younger age groups and seniors and one so cal senior association I might get censored for posting name even though I am only supplying info. SPA is coming to Ca soon but do not know what they will be doing. Best bet here is that if cash award is very good, say 500 or so to cover full entry fee or slightly more, you roll the dice for higher fees in that one and others to cover it. I like them because profit is still there. There is one called midnight madness, primarily kids playing, held in Reno \ Carson area once or twice a year and another in Auburn. I think only 3gg, it's been years since played there. But the awards are fantastic and worth it. You have to search the web or ask the assns questions to get the answers you are looking for good or bad. Fees are too high in some of these imo, but you know then going in. What your usually caught off guard in, is the number of teams in your bracket with no recourse. I think that is one that could be refined and solve some low turnouts. Economy and choices out there are two other key factors. |
| Aug. 18, 2012 Jawood Men's 50 943 posts | Another example of too many divisions and not enough teams! |
| Aug. 18, 2012 Ho 301 posts | Tine to offer my two cents, or mayybe in this case three cents. First on the SHELBYVILLE TOURNAMENT, their maximum amount of teams is 35 and that is all they can take. Was not a problem of too many divisions and not enough teams. I still say, "The problem is in the tournament directors, who just figure, "Throw open the dorrs and they will come". And unfortunately that is what a lot of teams do. They go to small tournaments with only 30 teams and then blame the tournament. DON"T GO to the small tournaments, if you stop going then maybe the TD will wake up and try and get more teams in. As to, "you need cash prizes to get more teams to attend", check this out and these are just MID-WEST and some MID-SOUTH tournaments that seem to have done pretty well this year without cash prizes. Just used the 65's aas an example because I think STEVE has a 65 team. MARCH ISSA MYRTLE BEACH $400 50 TEAMS 5 65 AAA, 2 AA MAY SSUSS LODEN COUNTY $525 - 62 TEAMS, 6 65 AAA, 1 aa MAY SPA GLEN BURNIE $400 - 44 TEAMS, 8 65 AAA JUNE SPA BUCKEYE CLASSIC $400 - 77 TEAMS 9 65 AAA, 6 AA JUNE ISSA ROANOKE $525, 65 TEAMS 6 65 AAA, 1 AA JUNE SPA MARIETTA $375 42 TEAMS 5 65 AAA, 5 AA JULY SSUSA SHAWNEE $525 56 TEAMS 7 65 AAA, 2 AA JULY SPA COLUMBUS $475 40 TEAMS, 4 65 AAA,4 65 AA AUGUST SSUSA ELGIN $325 34 TEAMS, 5 65 AAA, 1 AA So to repeat, there are a lot of good tournaments in the midwest/midsouth from SSUSA, ISSA and SPA who are drawing the teams at reasonable entry fees. The ones listed cover a good tournament schedule from MAY-AUGUST The problem is not with the tournaments, it is the teams. Do your homework before going to a tournament and go to the ones where the other teams are going. You can go to each organizations web page and see what teams attended their tournaments this year (use it as a plan for next year)..if a tournament doesn't list how many teams they drew, well there must be a reason they don't want anyone to know. Do your homework Ho Ho |
| Aug. 18, 2012 titanhd Men's 60 638 posts | Ho,you stated "don't go to small tournaments. All of the tourneys that you presented here list no Major teams.Where are they supposed to play or a better question is why are they excluded.(SPA Columbus-SPA Barberton limited the teams to AAA clasification). You would think that if you as a Tournament Director wanted more teams you would offer Major as well. |
| Aug. 18, 2012 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | Not intended to sound like a commercial but this year we will give out more than $12,000 in cash and prizes. The finale alone will give each team in three age groups over $2,300 in cash and individual prizes. You’d think that they would be beating down the doors and falling all over themselves to get in. But sadly that isn't the case. I had one team tell me he couldn't make for the finals and he was almost a lock for first place. You can give out gold plated bats but IMO this isn't much of an incentive for a fully sponsored team. So California isn't a hot bed of teams like people think. There are only 30 to 50 active men's and women's traveling teams. Don't know the reason for that but I have my opinion. We try all kinds of creative things to get teams to participate from Cash to Tee Shirts to Scrip to Beer Mugs to Coolers to Rings to Dry Fits. Could be your area and or the overhead. I can only speak for So Cal. Venues are pricey compared to other areas. There is a lot going on in So Cal and it just seems to me that softball isn't one of those huge priority's. Or it just isn't promoted enough. I see a serious imbalance of the teams coming up vs the teams retiring. There are plenty of leagues and in Temecula and they have waiting lists. But the number of 50s coming in to tournament softball do not equal the number of teams retiring. Unless there is a serious push to get more teams involved here the number of teams will continue to dwindle. I guess I changed the subject a little didn’t I. But it has always been our mission to give out as many individual prizes where possible. Time will tell if the money invested will work or not. |
| Aug. 18, 2012 Ho 301 posts | The reason we kept the majors out was to increase the AA and AAA teams. When we allowed Majors, the attensdance was 24 teams now without majors we are up to 77. Same for Columbus and Dayton. When I talk about small tournaments I refer to the low 20's that will take anybody and throw them all in a grab bag. I agree it is a problem. I would like to see the organizations have tournaments at least once a month for majors and major plus only that are qualifiers...just so they can play other major teams. Having to go to play WORLDS to find opponents is too expensive for these teams. Check out the SSUSA major teams at WORLDS and SPA majors at DALTON. If you give the majors qualifier tournaments where they can have five-or-six teams they will come. I have already talked with RIDGE about putting a couple of MAJOR/MAJOR PLUS tournaments in the midwest, wouldn't be a bad idea for TERRY to do the same in the mideast. Both SPA and SSUSA should scrap those 14 and 16 team local/regional qualifier tournaments and try and put a few major/major plus tournaments together. The info I put out earlier was for what I thought was a 65AAA team question. But here are some tournaments which did do well in the mid-west and east coast and upper south in having tournaments for majors/major plus. 50 major/major plus SPA GLEN BURNIE, MAY 7 TEAMS SSUSA LOUDEN COUNTY, MAY 7 TEAMS ISSA ROANOKE VALLEY, JUNE 7 TEAMS ISSA MYRTLE BEACH, MARCH 7 TEAMS SSUSA POLK COUNTY MARCH 6 TEAMS 55 MAJOR/MAJOR PLUS ISSA ROANOKE VALLEY, JUNE 9 TEAMS SSUSA RALEIGH AUGUST 6 TEAMS SSUSA LANSING AUGUST 5 TEAMS SPA GLEN BURNIE MAY 4 TEAMS SSUSA LOUDEN COUNTY MAY 4 TEAMS SSUSA BRICKYARD MAY 4 TEAMS ##THIS IS AND SSUSA CRABTOWN ARE GOOD TOURNAMENT IN ALL AGES..BOTH HAVE VERY GOOD TD'S 60 MAJORS/MAJOR PLUS SSUSA LOUDEN COUNTY MAY 4 TEAMS SSUSA RALEIGH AUGUST 4 TEAMS SSUSA CRABTOWN JULY 4 TEAMS SSUSA POLK COUNTY MARCH 4 TEAMS ISSA MYRTLE BEACH MARCH 4 TEAMS 65 MAJORS/MAJOR PLUS SPA MARIETTA JUNE 4 TEAMS SSUSA POLK COUNTY MARCH 3 TEAMS SPA ISENHOWER JULY 3 TEAMS SPA MONTGOMERY MARCH 3 TEAMS 70'S/75'S USUALLY ONLY TWO TEAMS IN ANY ONE TOURNAMENT. Finally TITANHD, two years ago the 75's were having the same problem..two or three teams at a tournament. Now they are all working together. I sent my mailing list for "25" 75's to a few 75's that wanted to organize the 75's so they could go to the same tourmaments. It is working for them THEE Buckeye Classic (12 teams); Columbus (7 teams) and SHELBYVILLE (6) had great attendance this year. For next year we are starting to work on a MAY, JUNE, JULY and AUGUST three-day SIX-to-EIGHT games citcuit for the 75's. I appreciate your problem but I think it is up to TERRY and RIDGE to set up at least two (one for each organization) monthly to give the majors and major plus teams a place to play. Both organizations created the problems with their major/major plus divisions so it is up to them to arrange tournaments not for AA/AAA tournaments to find a place for them to play. Ho |
| Aug. 18, 2012 steve65 Men's 65 177 posts | My hat is off to you Ho you did your homework--I am with a 65 AA team and your research proves my point---look at the number of AA teams in each of the tournaments you mentioned. That is the problem --the number of entries is down--way down--so we as an organization need to figure out how to raise the numbers---at Shelbyville we played three different teams one we played once the other two three times each---now we are going to northern Championships and in our division is 2 65 AA one 70 Major and two 75 AAA---thats for seeding games and goes to the 70 major and two 65 aa for double elimination--we again will be playing the one team two or three times--perhaps I am wrong but the only way to get more teams is via prizes--I personally do not care because I love to play but would like more and different teams-- Ho on the major/major plus note you neglected that the numbers you posted show the same situation for 65AA--I have not seen one tournament say how many teams will be there until AFTER cancellation/refund time is past---perhaps all TD should guarantee X number of teams or money back---or make winning so good teams cannot pass up the opportunity---this is our problem and its kinda up to us to fix it-- |
| Aug. 18, 2012 titanhd Men's 60 638 posts | Ho, Thanks for your response I think that we agree on direction.The real issue is that there are too many division.A novel idea but, Major-Major Plus qualifiers would be well received.(IMO) Especially if we actually qualify for something.(ie. A paid berth to the World etc.)Not much to enjoy being Major or Major plus to play 2-3 tournaments per summer. |
| Aug. 18, 2012 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | That might should be xxx number of teams OF the SAME RATING & AGE. NO MIXES. Four is not too bat but it should be minimum number. Ê imo |
| Aug. 18, 2012 Ho 301 posts | STEVE..There is one tournament that sends out newsletters twice a month listing the names of all teams coming to their tournament and does not enforce a pull-out deadline. Doing this forces us to make certain we have at least six teams, usually eight in each bracket (age and classification 60 AA, 60 AAA, 65 AA, 65 AAA etc). Most SSUSA and SPA TD's will tell you is coming if your manager calls them prior to the deadline and asks for that information. At least the better ones do. Ho |
| Aug. 18, 2012 miken44 90 posts | ho in barberton how do you have teams that are majors in ssusa playing in a tourny that is rated for aaa teams in spa one association shouldnt be that much different in rankings than the other teams that played in barberton that is going to lansing that were aaa will play aaa other teams that were there playing aaa are listed by ssusa as major |
| Aug. 18, 2012 Ho 301 posts | Contrary to popular belief, the associations do not rate the same way. There are teams rated AAA in SPA which are major in SSUSA; there are teams rated major in SPA which are AAA in SSUSA and ISSA rates anyway they want. I do think in most cases SSUSA and SPA work together based on results of the WORLD championships..the only difference would be winners in WORLD tournaments with three-teams or less in a division. Since we have a SPA tournament we use SPA ratings to determine what rating to use for each team. We do bend a little on some new teams (which should be AAA by SPA and SSUSA) if thier last few tournaments they have really been destroyed. I will call the SPA office and in a conference call with RIDGE and three other directors try to get some ratings changed. I do know of a couple of instances where teams where also rated down in other associations in order to get them to come to a tournamemt and fill a bracket and the changes didn't have that much of an impact on the tournament results. You could probably find teams in each association (SSUSA and SPA) which are doifferent from each other but each has a system they stand by to rate teams. Since both systems are somewhat different, occasionally ratings may be different. Hope that answers your question. Ho |
| Aug. 18, 2012 steve65 Men's 65 177 posts | we are still dancing all aroubd this issue.---the thread was started in an attempt to figure out ways to get MORE teams in all classification to go to tournaments---I attempted and apparently failed to make the point that so far this year in three tournaments we have played kentuckiana 65s 7 games In Shelbyville we played Indy Jobs 3 times and start off Lansing with them again--We had three teams in our division in Shelbyville and again three in Lansing counting a 70s Major---It is alot of money to go to tournaments and play the same teams over and over--some incentive needs to be found to get more teams period----Lets all try to come up with ideas to accomplish this before the game we love goes away due to non participation |
| Aug. 18, 2012 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | I made the argument 3 or 4 years ago that the hot composite bats that were prevalent by 2005 were going to result in a diminished number of senior players. The result of the hot bats are conditions too lively for satisfying play (infielders overwhelmed, outfielders running ragged on ever-larger fields, over-emphasis on the long ball, etc.) not to mention the safety factor that has resulted in new requirements (experiment with slower balls, mandatory pitching protection equipment, etc.) and the profit factor for TDs which has resulted in home run limits, time-limit games, etc. At the time, this was pooh-poohed. By 2010, statistics began to show the drop off in older players. At a time when better health is here for older players, we saw a drop-off in senior teams (and a related drop-off in younger players due to bat-altering, in my opinion). What we should be seeing is a boom in older teams (particularly 60, 65, 70s) as these age groups swell in our population. My prophecy was also rejected by many, particularly sluggers who love the hot composites and the 350+ home run shots. This thread, to me, is another ominous warning of the near future of senior ball as more and more players stop playing because it isn't fun for them anymore (most of these players are not elite, nor even really good, but were valuable for what they could contribute—good defense, smarts, speed, high batting average, etc.). Don't think prize money is the solution to bring fun back into the game for so many seniors who have lost interest or become discouraged. But it might help with some. I'd rather have the team's entry fee back as a prize than shirts. |
