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Discussion: You Make the Call

Posted Discussion
Nov. 13, 2012
audieh
Men's 60
240 posts
You Make the Call
Ground ball hit between first baseman and bag. Fields ball but drops it and it goes out of bounds. The runner stopped running. The first basemen picks ball up and steps on the orange safety base not the actual first base. The pitcher who has run over realizes the mistake and takes ball from first baseman and stands on the right base holding the ball.

The runner than proceeds to run to first base and touches the bag while the pitcher is standing on the right base holding the ball.

Umpires said that since the first baseman touched the wrong base the runner was safe! Really? The runner was not within 20 feet of the base when the pitcher was standing on the correct base holding the ball. You make the call!
Nov. 13, 2012
yoblu
6 posts
Dead ball, runner is advanced to 2nd base.
Nov. 13, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Unless by "out of bounds" you mean the ball went out of play, I have the batter runner out at first.
If the ball went out of play (i.e. into the dugout, thru an open gate or under a fence) then I have a dead ball, batter runner advances to second
Nov. 13, 2012
southernson
250 posts
He's out....
Nov. 13, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
What else can "out of bounds" mean but out of play. In which case, yoblu is correct.
Nov. 13, 2012
PlanoPlayer
Men's 55
70 posts
In the words of Lee Corso...not so fast my friend.

This is probably not true because the original poster only says the runner stopped running, but if the runner had stopped running and moved in the on deck or team area, he would be out no matter what due to what is generally known as the "give up" rule:

C. When he fails to advance to first base and enters his team area
after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, or catcher obstruction. EFFECT:
The ball is dead, the batter-runner is out and runners cannot
advance.

The ball is/was fair if it was hit as described, between the first baseman and the bag.
Nov. 13, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
PlanoPlayer you are correct on that rule. Not being there to see this play unfold and just going by how the play was described I suspect the batter-runner stopped running because he thought it was a foul ball. Just a semi-educated guess.
Nov. 13, 2012
slyone25
Men's 50
19 posts
I WAS THEIR THE BATTER IS OUT AND THE RUNNER THAT WAS ON FIRST ADVANCES TO 2ND BASE
Nov. 13, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
out and if there was a runner he could advance to second and the fielder had his choice to throw to second and have the runner tagged out if in time
Nov. 13, 2012
PlanoPlayer
Men's 55
70 posts
Assuming the original poster meant to say foul territory and not "out of bounds" (meaning "out of play") because it is implausible to me that a 1st baseman can field a fair ball and then drop it so that it rolls or flies into the dugout, or flies over the fence next to the dugout into the "out of play" area, or rolls under the fence into the "out of play' area AND have the 1st baseman be able to retrieve it, and get back to first to make the put out before the batter can get to first. Until the original poster clears this up, assuming my assumption that he meant foul territory instead of "out of play", here I believe, is the correct ruling.

Here is the applicable rule in the SSUSA rule book:

8.4 AFTER GETTING A HIT
8.4 (1) BATTER/RUNNER REACHING FIRST BASE
Each batter must reach first base without the aid of a courtesy runner. A Double Bag shall be used at first base, the double portion of the bag being in foul territory abutting first base. If there is a play on a batter/runner going to first base, the batter/runner must touch the portion of the Double Bag extending into foul territory. He will be called out if he fails to do so, except, in the umpire’s judgment, the batter-runner is avoiding a collision. This is NOT an appeal play.
Important: The defending player has only the white base, in fair
territory, to make the putout; his touch of only the bag in foul territory will not result in an out.

Assuming the runner was not out via the "give up" rule mentioned in my previous post above, the key wording in the rule is the following wording in the last sentence of the rule above "his touch of only the bag in foul territory will not result in an out."

The rule does not say that the defensive player only gets one chance to hit one side of the bag, and it better be the correct side. In fact, the defensive player could have hit the orange bag 5 times as long as he touched the white bag before the batter got there. The fact as given by the original poster, is that the defensive player, whether it was the 1st baseman or the pitcher with the ball, touched the white part of the bag before the runner touched the orange part of the bag, so...the batter is out.

It does not seem that the original poster meant for the discrepancy to be whether the ball was "out of play" or not, but rather the issue seems to be that the fielder touched the orange bag before touching the white bag. If this is the controversy, the runner is out by rule.

Nov. 13, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
slyone25 the original post did not indicate a runner was on first. I'm not sure what you mean by the runner on first advances to second but that runner is not automatically granted second base. The play should still be live so he likely ran to second without drawing a throw. And since the batter runner was out at first that took away the force at second, thus the base runner can go back to first if he chooses to.
Nov. 13, 2012
audieh
Men's 60
240 posts
PlanoPlayer, you are right. I should have said, "the ball rolled out of the first baseman's glove into foul territory about 4 feet. I believe you have solved the puzzle. However, the umpires decided the batter was safe. Basically, the umps gave up on the play when they saw the wrong bag touched and neither would admit that the pitcher was standing on the right base holding the ball. Not a big deal but I felt the wrong call was made.
Nov. 14, 2012
Gideon60
Men's 50
42 posts
if the ball goes out of play it is dead ball and runner advances period!
Nov. 14, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Audieh there 2 umpires doing the game? If yes that should be the base umpires call. Did anyone ask him for help from the home plate umpire? Going strictly by how the play was described it's hard to believe they would miss that.
Nov. 14, 2012
audieh
Men's 60
240 posts
Stick8 there were two umpires and the base umpire immediately made the right call. The other team protested loudly. The home plate umpire who didn't follow the play after the first tag on the wrong base conferred with the base umpire and then called the tournament director for a ruling. I listened to what he told the director and he never mentioned that our pitcher was standing on the right base with the ball in his hand prior to the base runner getting to the bag.

When he walked away i told the director what really happened and he said the runner from home was out. The home plate umpire then said he never saw the pitcher on first and the runner was safe.

Since this was just a round robin game and we were winning I quit protesting and we finished the game. My reason for bringing this up was just to see what the correct call is, nothing more!
Nov. 17, 2012
MarkL
Men's 55
5 posts
he is out for not runningbecause he runner gave up
Nov. 17, 2012
The real deal
Men's 60
62 posts
C'mon guys - if the ball went "out of bounds", then it's a dead ball - runner advances to 2nd...

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