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Discussion: Fastpitch my a-- !

Posted Discussion
Aug. 8, 2007
batwise
35 posts
Fastpitch my a-- !
In our early morning pick up league a player age 74 came to bat with a 34/25 bat. It was a ASA stamped and approved bat but had the words fastpitch on it. Some of the guys had a fit and stated that in senior softball one cannot use a fastpitch bat. I quickly came to the rescue of this poor guy by pointing out there is no such thing as fastpitch or slowpitch bat, just softball bats. This group knows I have been in the bat business for over 30 years but still held fast because according to them SSUSA will not allow a fastpitch bat in play.
I told them SSUSA is a professional group of softball gurus and could not make such a rookie mistake. They must know about bats and therefore would allow any softball bat if approved by ASA. So tell SSUSA, can a senior chose to use a lighter bat is wanted. As you well know the only reason a bat has fastpitch on it is purely for marketing and sales at retail stores.
Aug. 9, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
BATWISE: SS-USA's 2005 - 2006 RULE BOOK. Pages 42 & 43. SECTION 8; paragraph 8.4. OFFICAL BATS.

A. All bats used in SSUSA & SSWC play, includ' qualifiers, must be approved by SSUSA / SSWC.

B. Shall not be more than 34" long, nor exceed 38 ounces.

H. Shall be marked OFFICAL SOFTBALL by the manufacturer. if the words .................

It is possible, that a FAST PITCH BAT, could exceed the ASTM REVIVED 1890 test standards, that SSUSA / SSWC is @ the present time "ENFORCING". Also, did the manufacturer of that FAST PITCH BAT, submit to SSUSA / SSWC 4 approval?

HOPE this might help! The STONEMAN...
Aug. 9, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Technically, imo, If the rules, where ever or by whom ever, DO not Specifically address the specific bat, as in this case a "fast pitch" marked bat, as whether illegal or not, it can be used in slow pitch. Circumvent a rule by non clearity of that rule.
As Stonemane describes using length & weight and standard to BPF. If rules are specifically stated, fast pitch bats are not allowed, so be it, but also, if no BPF marking on bat, then NOT allowed. That one has to appear.
I see Fast pitch bats all over being used in ASA leagues and tournaments. Nothing is said.
Rules need to define exactly what their referring to, for that specific play, item, or situation.
There is no "common sense" rule that I know of. That would have to be outlined as well. I hear that every where as well but have not been shouwn that rule to date.
Personally, I do not think using a fast pitch marked bat in slow pitch, shoulf be allowed, two different games.
Aug. 9, 2007
batwise
35 posts
Two different games,,,,,,same bats. There is no differance for f/p & s/p is bat design or testing.
A 33/24 - 34/25 will test the same as a 33/28.
If a player has a weak back and wants to use a lighter bat is his choice.
The rules posted by Stoneman (thanks) are clear that a bat stamped fastpitch is legal in SSUSA. They should fix this.
Aug. 9, 2007
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
I think this is where the "rule" is coming from:

S.P.A. will allow any bat as long as it has BPF 1.20 clearly stamped on it by the manufacture.
The following bats are unapproved for S.P.A. Competition
Fast Pitch Bats
The Originial Miken Ultra (Gray Bat)
Titanium bats that are not 1.20 BPF or have association approval stamps.

Some bats say fastpitch, and most have a bottle shape and weigh less than what we use for slowpitch. This rule has been around a couple of years, and I have not understood it from the beginning, but it really did not impact our team as we don't use one. Although I do wonder when in league play I see a strapping young man swingining a 24 ounce bat with Michele Smith printed on it...
Aug. 9, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Dr. Dot or Doc Richardson, Lisa Fernandez, to name a few others.

Probable using lighter for the bat speed. I tried a 25oz but couldn't get used to the light weight.
Bottle bats are good for the inside pitch in both fatch and slow pitch, imo. As long as you don't normally pull it down the line.
Food for thought: Heard the Yellow Rip-it "fast pitch" bat is being used and is marked, Fast Pitch. Same as the other non marked yellow rip-it.bat. I forget if it has 1.20 on it.
Aug. 9, 2007
the wood
1085 posts
After reading Stoneman's repsonse, I read my SSWC rule book and didn't find any reference to the term 'fast pitch'. It only dealt with the specifics (max length & weight, 1.2 BPF stamp). But this is only one assn.

Nancy:
In reading the SPA rulebook, I found the same as you posted. However, when we played in KC, the tournament officials disallowed the original Synergy. This is after they first approved it (glueing a star to the knob). They called a Randy Smith player out for using his Synergy in a game prior to ours. The bat has the 1.2 BPF stamp on it, it isn't one of the named banned bats and it didn't appear suspicious. We had used in it in SPA in 2006.
Why would they take this action?
Bob Woodroof
Aug. 9, 2007
batwise
35 posts
Taits;
My grand DD uses a Rip It f/p bat and it has all the stamps, 1.20 - ASA, etc and is not at all the like the Senior Elite outlaw bat. She has a 34/26 & 34/25 (strong girl) and plays D1 college softball. Thanks all for your help. I am hoping SSUSA gets the message and clears this up.
Aug. 9, 2007
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
Am I missing something here? A 75 year old gets his 25oz bat protested in a "pickup" league. Do you have to be a retired lawyer to play in this league?
Aug. 9, 2007
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
Bob, I will bet that they were ASA umpires who just did not get it. Not every bat is an Ultra II. I despise the lists that ASA uses because it is so long, and it is getting harder all the time to know every model and year of every bat company. I am sure that as umpires we miss one once in awhile. Then there is the no longer grandfathering next year...whew.
Aug. 9, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Woody,
We noticed in USSSA in Milwaukee an ongoing bit of the banned bat saga
that doesn't make any sense.
They banned the Ultra 2 and Combat from use in the tourney but allowed the original Synergy.
What's that all about?
The Original Synergy is as good or better than either one of those mentioned
and those who used them had the clear advantage in the tourney.
We played one team who passed the same Synergy off to their line up
as each approached the plate.
What I'm saying is common sense and consistency need to rejoin us regarding these bats.
The Rip It is as good as any bat made and much more durable and should be allowed
in with the rest.
All associations should open up the tnmts to any acceptable bat,
U2, Combat, Synergy, Rip-it and control the action with the ball.
We're taking it in the shorts again by having to buy a million bats
and never, like Clatterbaugh and Barry Bonds, the best hitters in the nation
having the luxury of using the same bat for all tourneys all the time.
Aug. 9, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Passing the same bat down the line sure ought to bring about a bat check, whether or not on steriods like BB's probably is. jmo
Aug. 9, 2007
OLDBUCK23
Men's 60
62 posts
On 7-15-05, Craig Opal posted the following letter and response on this subject to Kevin Ryan, National Director of ASA Umpires, on Craig Opal's website: www.softballhitting.com:
" Hi, Kevin,
I know that you are a busy guy, but I can't see anywhere in writing that says it is OK to usa fastpitch bats in slowpitch and vice versa. If it has the ASA 2004 stamps,that seems to me it would be good enough, but many local umpires never seem to be on the same page regarding this. So comoing from you is all that I would need. Thank you for your time.
Craig Opal "

Kevin Ryan's response was:
"Craig,
You are correct we do not differentiate. The manufacturers do for a sales technique but we do not. So we do not even refer to them as FP or SP bats.
If it has the ASA 2004 logo and does not appear on the banned list it is good to go.
Hope that helps.

Kevin Ryan

National Director of ASA Umpires
2801 NE 50th St
Oklahoma City, OK 73111 "
Aug. 9, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Oldbucks23,
Looks what's happened b-4 and after...
It's ok to use this (so and so) bat just have it recertified. Ok you can still use a Freak. Now none of those are going to be good in '08.
Most of the already or soon to be included on banned bats list for '08 are worse than some that allowed.
At least until ASA needs another cash infusion or another list comes out.
Aug. 9, 2007
batwise
35 posts
Thank you. That is what SSUSA needs to read and let all senior swing any legal bat they want.
If the UIC at SSUSA does not understand than he should be man enought to say so. If my back is weak or I just chose to use a lighter bat then that is my right as player. So get on board SSUSA and let's move on to better things like playing for beer.
Aug. 9, 2007
Sweet P
Men's 60
169 posts
Bob 'The Wood, FYI, later in the tournament the directors in KC reversed the illegal bat ruling by the Umpire. They informed us that the original Easton Synery bat was legal, and that the player who had been suspended had been re-instated. A player on one of the opposing teams we played was allowed to swing the bat in question later in the tournament.

Phillip C.
Aug. 9, 2007
the wood
1085 posts
Mr. P:
That is a dog whose hunting days are over... to steal a phrase.
It seems to me that a simple meeting (before the tourney0 between the UIC, a high ranking tourney official and the 'testors' of the bats should have taken place. In it they would go down the list of banned bats, they would discuss the physical appearence issues and the pseudo weight balancing that they did. Unless an approved bat had some suspicious characteristics, it should have been deemed legal.
In our case, our player flew 1,500 miles to KC thinking that he could use the bat that their very web site stated that he could... more succinctly, it didn't list it as a banned bat. He used in TX in 2006, with SPA's approval. Their rule book didn't list it as banned.
Even after this, they should have kept the name of the team for any bat that they disallowed. In the event that they later allowed it, they could semi correct their mistake. The fact is that WE were never notified of the change.
how about the guy that was suspended? did he get to go back and re-play the games that he missed? I think not. Did this impact his team? Probably.
This really smells!
:-)
BW
Aug. 9, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
BATWISE; TAIT: DMAC; EINSTEIN; NANCY ALLEN: & OTHERS.....

FAST PITCH BATS, r hotter than SLOW PITCH BATS. This statement comes from SGMA & 2 of the biggest SOFTBALL SPORTING GOOD RETAILERS.

RUMOR; ASA, is about to ban a whole lot of FAST PITCH BATS. ASA, is also, about to ban more SLOW PITCH BATS. This comes from several SGMA members.

RUMOR: ASA & others, can ban Bats, becaused it has & it still CAN proven that the Bats that were send in 4 Test' & the Bats that r be' manufacturer ( the ones Sold to the PUBLIC), r not the same Bat.

POINT: Bat passes & the manufacturer produce hotter Bats.

ANSWER to the QUESTION... WHY, R MORE BATS BREAK'?? The big Softball Gods, have told the BALL MANUFACTURES, TO 'TONE THEIR BALLS DOWN & to make their balls bigger & heavier.

FAST PITCH BATS, were designed 4 FAST PITCH.....
SLOW PITCH BATS, were designed 4 SLOW PITCH.

FACT: Ave' Slow Pitch Balls is tossed @ about 23 - 26 MPH. WOMEN FAST PITCH BALL, travel @ 50 - 70 MPH.

BATWISE: Sorry, but, any player that used a FAST PITCH BAT in SLOW PITCH, appears to be bend' the RULES. Those that are aware, will not try to use a FAST PITCH BAT, in SLOW PITCH.

QUESTION??? WHY, DO U THINK THAT THE 4 - 6 MAJOR SOFTBALL ORGINAZ', state::: BATS must have OFFICAL SOFTBALL written on a Bat to be a LEGAL BAT.....???

SAFETY.... SAFETY..... ?????????????/

Believe it or Not. DNC... DNC... The STONEMAN
Aug. 9, 2007
batwise
35 posts
I think we spent too much time on this but let me ask you one last question. If I came to bat using my grand DD’s 33/24 bat. Are you saying I can hit the ball better than with a 34/28 ?
Aug. 9, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Stoneman,
Correct me if I'm wrong, (I know you will) but aren't FP bats marked 'Official Softball' but just have Fastpitch located somewhere else on the barrel?
FP players like the lighter bat as well as the longer barreled bat, for two reasons, I know of, (Iused to play the game) to come around faster and about 2" more hitting surface.
They are "hotter" as it were, and usually more durable for some "strange" reason.
I do not own one now, so I can not look.
As for the ASA thing. I just mentioned some of that in another was.
Aug. 9, 2007
Mitch
Men's 50
68 posts
According to the 2007 ASA Official rules of softball, page 64, rule 3, section 1, para. C says, "LENGTH AND WEIGHT. The offical bat shall not be more than 34.0 inches long, nor exceed 38.0 ounces in weight."

It does not make any distintion between fast pitch or slow pitch "anywhere" in this section titled "OFFICIAL BAT".
Don't know if this helps or adds more confusion.
Aug. 10, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Mitch,
The heavest bat made lately is 32oz that has ASA stamps on them. (Anderson) The only bats I know of in a 38oz would be old school, made in the 90's. And I doubt they would have approperate ASA stamps on them.
But what you wrote is correct. No distinction between the two.
Aug. 10, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
TAITS: GET A LIFE. R u able to think 4 ur'self? If, all Bats r the same, why, do FAST PITCH BATS, state... FAST PITCH?

As far as COMBAT, my ANTI-VIRUS & VIRUS state: "OFFICAL SLOW PITCH SOFTBALL". Neither of my SENIOR COMBAT states: offical softball or offical slow pitch softball"...... PERIOD.

SCOTT: U can believe whatever u want. U can get off of u're couch & do u're own research. I am tired of u QUESTIONING??

SCOTT... do me a favor..... PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO ANY OF MY POST. U seem to believe that I am full of it 7 that I do not know any: 1) SGMA MEMBERS 2) BAT REPS 3) MAJOR SOFTBALL RETAILERS 4) ANY COLLEGE DOCTORS, THAT DO RESEACH in the FIELD of SOFTBALL.....

TRAIT: Why, don't u go on line & do some reseach on FAST PITCH BATS????

If, u r able, then please, please, post some of u're read' along w/ the info on who, what was written, when article was written, & the name of any of these ARTICLES.

If, u have the desire to cheat, go buy a YELLOW RIP-IT FAST PITCH BAT, 24 TO 26 OZ & then add 3 to 5 ounces of GORILLA GLUE, in the END. One will now have a Bat hotter than the GRAY ULTRA END LOADS.

HOW DO U LIKE THIS REPLY??? The STONEMAN
Aug. 11, 2007
Mitch
Men's 50
68 posts
WOW, STONEMAN, are you really that ticked off with these guy's replies? I hope not cause I don't think we need to air our dirty laundry here do we?

A couple of additional things:
1. "taits". You mentioned in your reply about "old school" 38 oz. bats and not having the appropreate ASA stamps. Again, refering to the 2007 ASA book, page 62, Rule 3 (EQUIPMENT), Section 1 (OFFICIAL BAT), Para A (CERTIFIED/APPROVED), sub para. 3 states, "must, in the sole opinion and discretion of the umpire, have been manufactured prior to 2000 and, if tested, would comply with the ASA bat performance standards then in effect".
This almost sounds like it doesn't need the ASA stamp if the umpire believes it was made prior to 2000 and would meet the standards back then.

2. STONEMAN, Again referring to the same 2007 ASA book, page 62, Rule 3, Section 1, Para B (MARKING) states, "The official bat shall be marked OFFICIAL SOFTBALL by the manufacture".
So, that sounds like your two SENIOR COMBATS are not legal bats if they don't have this mark.

I'm not trying to stir the pot, just stating facts from the 2007 ASA book.
Aug. 11, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
stoneman,
I did not ask you you or any other to research bats here, and I nerver mentioned any Combat bats . A yellow Rip-it is mentioned.
So usless any rule book specifically states fast pitch and or slow pitch as good to go it would fall under the official softball bat designation. There is no bending rules. Or there should not be. If you bend one way & I bend another on the same point, nothing get accomplished.
Sorry, but don't read my post if you dont like them. Are you the Gary19 replacenent and thread cop on the beat now,
Giving out how to's on adding an endload now?
By what I read here, reguarding bat useage rules, put fourth by some on here, there is nothing to prevent one from useing a fast pitch bat in slowpitch.
No rule broken, no illegal bat either. As long as stoneman didn't get the glue out.

Mitch,
Since the book does state that the official softball and or stamp needs to be visable (readable). If not, it's not legal.
I doubt many well used bats from the 90's would still have much left that 's redable on them.
Aug. 11, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Tait's and Stoney,
We're all on the same team here and mutual respect is the name of the game.
I know the both of you, now and you're both terrific people.
I have swung a FP version of the Rip it Senior.
It's the only FP version of any bat I have swung to date
and it doesn't hit as good as the 28 oz Yellow monster I have.
Stoney told me that if I practiced on it exclusively
it would take a couple of months but I would be hitting more balls out, that is
become more consistent, hitting the long ball than before.
That makes sense to me but so do inertia and mass regarding a heavier head
as in a hammer trying to drive in 16 penny nail.
Aug. 11, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
My feelings as well.
I haven't even seen the FP version of the yellow Rip-it, but do have the other yellow.
As for the email to Carl, I'll be playing with him in Masnteca, Will mention it personally.
Diamond Nuts, Saints 55, and my self, used to have or still has a payer that owns one or did. I saw them all in Manteca last year.
But it won't be allowed their this year I hear, along with the U-2. An FOD corporate decision ( ASA ins reason) is what I was given as reason by the parks GM. That includes all the FOD's.
Aug. 11, 2007
batguyaz
134 posts
I know little about the tech area of bats nor do I understand the whole fastpitch/slowpitch concern. Over the past two years I have played with or against Bill Gateley aka homerun Bill. Last fall he used a 34/28 Rip It ASA bat that said fastpitch on it. Many cried foul for fastpitch bats are a sin in senior softball for the bat had to be more powerful then a slowpitch bat. The avg homerun was about 345 ft or so. Since the bat was ASA stamped the umps did not mind but some of the other players did so Bill changed to standard Rip It black ASA bat (without the fastpitch) and the homeruns went about…..345 ft. He would tell us that fastpitch is only a marketing tool and nothing more. The ASA testing is the same, the barrel is the same the bat is the same except for drop (difference between the length and weight). So again he would use the f/p – boom 345 ft – the senior ASA – 345 ft. Then a Senior Elite and – kaboom 370 ft or more. We do have a guy on our team that uses a 34/25 Bill gave him and the only difference is he can swing a little faster and that’s it.
Aug. 15, 2007
replant
97 posts
Stoneman is RIGHT. It's amazing how many players are ready to bend the rules and always pushing to legalize something that has had the death researched out of it. I swear you guys would be plugging wood bads if that's what we had to end up using. That batguyaz is always hyping those Rip its and reapers like he had stock in the company. I tried a Rip It, it's no better than any other 98mph bat. Tried the yellow one also(fastpitch bat). Let's face it it's illegal!!!
Aug. 15, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
replant,
There is basically two completely different yellow, Rip-it bats, 1) a non sanctioned bat and 2) two versions of their fast pitch, yellow bat.
One being shorter than the other.
As for the Reaper, there are many guys on here giving the bat high marks. Not just batguyaz.
Aug. 15, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Perhaps I should also add that the Black Rip-it is an ASA bat.
The Reaper comes in both varieties, ASA and the better assn's.
Aug. 15, 2007
replant
97 posts
If it hits 50' further than the other ASA bats it won't last long as legal. Some may just like the feel. If that is the difference, that okay. I doubt if we are going to find the maker of Rip it and reaper making a bunch of outlaw bats!
Aug. 15, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Same maker for all of them. But some guys like a balanced bat some like a EL, others don't care, like my self.
Bats do feel different be it the type of grip that's on it or the diameter of the handel. Some others just feel like an EL even though the company say's it a bal.
We all have our likes and dislikes and I doubt any two of us swing alike either.
Aug. 15, 2007
replant
97 posts
you got that right. 10 guys using the same bat ,will most likely, not all hit the same distance. It's the hitter, not the bat.
Aug. 15, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
JMO, too many actual factors really come into the equasion, to limit it to just the hitter.
Aug. 15, 2007
replant
97 posts
and what might that be? Same field, same bat, same ball,same day,same pitcher. Guys are different sizes and shapes, so we are back to the hitter again.
Aug. 15, 2007
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Weather, ball used (too many factors here alone), batter feeling good or what?, the sun could also play a role, is it in his eyes or no problem at all, & probably more....
Aug. 16, 2007
replant
97 posts
read my last reply, it included all that. SAME DAY should mean same weather for all. i included ball. We are back to difference in hitters. you got to believe the hitter has something to do with the hit! Not just the bat.
Aug. 17, 2007
Mitch
Men's 50
68 posts
This topic could go on forever. Why? Simply because "EVERYTHING" contributes to how well a ball is or is not hit. Some factors may contribute more than others, but they "ALL" come into play. If you take the batter out of the equation and replace him with a robot that swings exactly the same each and every time, then the bat will make a difference. If you have a human batter with a bad ball on a very hot day, chances are that no bat is going to make a difference because of the bad ball. This goes on and on and on and on.
Probably the biggest factor in all of this is the batter's attitude when they step into the batters box and how baddly they want to hit the ball and hit it hard. Believe me, attitude makes a difference in the batters box.
Aug. 17, 2007
replant
97 posts
we finally agree! It's the hitter not the bat. You almost said, if you have a bad attitude on a certain day the bat hits better. The topic is not how well a bat is hit. the topic is the bat. As I said, it's the hitter not the bat. We finally agree!
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