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Discussion: 5 Run Rule

Posted Discussion
Dec. 7, 2010
TOMAR77
Men's 55
200 posts
5 Run Rule
Just played in the SCSSA,Championship.Donnie and Marv did a solid job organizing the event. There were a few hic-ups , but what do you expect for the 1st time out. Our experince was positive. We did question certain decisions but were given valid answers by Donnie and Jerry. We accepted their answers and moved forward. It is impossible to please everyone, but rather than complain get out there and play the hand your dealt.
One thing that was brought up was: When a lower rated team is receiving the 5 run equalizer is it fair to issue the 1 run when the receiving team scored the max. There-by allowing a 6 run inning.Obviously the higher rated team can only score a max. 5 runs according to our rules. It just seems an unfair advantage to the lower rated team.Personally I feel that if a lower rated team gets their 5 then that should be the max. Now, another way to eliminate this inherent controversy is to issue the 5 runs outright at the beginning of the game and that is what the higher rated teams are charged with to overcome. Just to advise, the team that I am on often receives the benefit of the 5 runs, but my mantra is "A Sense Of Fairness". I am interested in the opinion of SSUSA, and my fellow Senior Softball Community Members opinions on this rule.
Thank You, Tomar
Dec. 7, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
I believe that was the way it was originally setÊup.
But I do understand your dilemma.
Taking it a step further, say in the next inning the lower team fails to score any runs, and the higher rated team makes their 5 again,
Are you going to just call it an even game?

I think the Sense Of Fairness as you say, was the 5 run spot. Whenever as they say they were given, front end or one per from second on.
Then you also have the shortened games where a team may not get one...
Dec. 8, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I don't think there is an easy way to implement such an unnatural rule.
Dec. 8, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Posted by staff here:
The 5-Run Equalizer application was modified a couple of years ago for two reasons:

• To prevent a Visitor getting the "5" in the first inning, earning "5" of their own and having the Home team come to bat for the first time trailing 10-0 ... Older ages and lower rated skill levels many times found this deficit too much to overcome, especially in a time-shortened game; and

• Spreading the "5" over the middle five innings more fairly applied the equalizer in any game that didn't go a full 7 innings ...

Here's a link to a little spreadsheet analysis of the "math" behind that theory if anyone is interested ...

• Equalizer Math
Equivalent Runs = Sum of equalizer runs given so far in game, times 7, divided by number of innings played so far

Example for 4 innings played: 3 x 7 = 21 / 4 = 5.25

Sample cell formula: @SUM($D$6..D9)*7/A9


More can be found on posts from july 2010 including your Tommy.
Dec. 8, 2010
Marv19
Men's 60
444 posts
Tommy thanks for the kudos. Its always nice to know how we are doing. Personally these events are so interesting. I met an old drag racing buddy from way back at this one. Taits is Eddies Speed Shop still open? Dan, Service Center and National Speed were customers in the old days.

Organizing goes far beyond what you see. I know Donnie worked long hours to give you the best competitive divisions possible. Especially when your dealing with 600+ egos :O)

As for the equalizer. Donnie and I had many conversations with regard to tweaking and shaping our version of the rules. This was one where we see a better way to implement the 5 runs and in some cases the 11th man rule. In a perfect world we would have an equal amount of rated and aged bracketed teams. But we are a regional association and so far this was the best turnabout of all of our events. Even then we still had to implement the rule. We chose to add the 5 runs from the first inning on. Reason: Some games drag on and you may only get in 5 innings occasionally. With us you'd get all the runs you are entitled to. As for adding them up front I think you'd see a psychological disadvantage if you're the higher rated team. I see my team mates looking at the score boards all the time. I would suspect this is what SSUSA had in mind when they developed the rule. Our approach was to give it up front 1 at a time. As many of you know we are flexible and if you have input we'd like to hear it. If it makes sense to all that participate then we will most certainly entertain it. Presently we are looking at ways to speed up the game so you can get your 7 that most want. We would really like your feedback. After all there would be no SCSSA without you! C.U. All January 22-23
Dec. 8, 2010
Have Bat Will Travel
Men's 65
12 posts
Great job on the tournament SCSSA staff. The only big problem I feel that needs to be addressed is rosters. In our division the 65 AAA teams had to give 5 runs to 65 AA teams that added major players to their rosters. I think they should have been reclassified as AAA teams. This would not be allowed in SSUSA tournaments. Maybe SCSSA needs to have teams send in a copy of their SSUSA certified rosters to keep things right.
Dec. 8, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
John,
if that's the case perhaps straight up should have been used.
But yes, roster checks may have caught the discrepancy. And since they held one qualifier under their "umbrella" as it were, it shouldn't have been a problem.
Dec. 8, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
taits, clear thinking as usual on the 5 run equalizer rule. I think it could still be modified to make it even more fair (if you're going to use it at all).

Of course, in a perfect tournament, the brackets would be substantially even and although some teams would be marginally better than others (in NCSSA, let's say a range of 50-57 ranking in a 6 team bracket), the equalizer would not be needed.

But tournaments can only work with teams that enter. I have been in tournaments with a range of 25 levels (like a Major+ playing a AAA for non-NCSSA readers). In that case, a 5 run equalizer is too little. What should happen is to tell the top team that there is not appropriate competition.

I think a fair system would be to begin the 5 run equalizer in the first inning, with one run per inning. I agree that the psychological edge of being 10 up after a hot first inning is tough, so I would not give the weaker team 5 runs the first inning. But I also have been in situations where the team receiving 5 runs starting in the second inning has not gotten its complete equalizer because the game ended on time limits. In only one of these situations that I remember did the lower ranked team win.

I also think a 5-run equalizer is not sufficient when there is a great disparity in ability. In the case of NCSSA, where age is not part of the ranking, a team can end up playing another team 20 years younger! Too much to overcome with only 5 runs. I prefer to give an equalizer of about 1 run per every two levels of ranking, starting with a 3 ranked difference.

For example, a team ranked 60 would receive 2 runs playing a team ranked 54; receive 5 runs playing a team ranked 48; receive 8 runs for a team ranked 42; and so on.

Complicated and no solution for traditionally classified AA, AAA, Major, and Major Plus. But something that could be tweaked to allow TDs to accept teams that are far apart in ability.

In actuality, I don't agree entirely with the NCSSA system in that it is unfair to older teams who lack the arm strength, batting power, running speed, and stamina of much younger teams. Stamina is important. Look at how poorly most over-65 teams do on Sundays in a tournament, compared to their Saturdays.

Just my thoughts and unlikely to happen in slow-to-change NCSSA. Heard that at the annual meeting they voted down a motion to obey their own bylaws and guidelines!!
Dec. 8, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Omar,
I've played with a spread of 24. But ant team can be beaten on any given day. You just never know which one.
I agree on the next one too but might also be due to the fact that they allow pluses to play AA. I've had 2-3 play for my teams, 50 through 60. Won some, lost some games.
Correct on the left out ages, but they do that here as well. You get one for whatever. Ratings or age differences. More on that at end.
System I believe was a thought process by Reedy, Lancelot, Tryhorn & possibly Carl N.. But will not change from what one of them told me.
I proposed one to them and here as well as a few managers on here by email. If you care to read it e-me. tait_ebay@yahoo.com However I doubt you will due to your wanting anonymity which I do understand. But you never know you might like it...
Dec. 8, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Omar,
If you went to the board meeting what went on?
Dec. 8, 2010
outfielder
Men's 65
58 posts
One of the assoc. starts the 1 run per inning in the second and goes thru the sixth with the seventh as an open inning, can't remember if it's SPA or NSA.
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