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Discussion: Are geographical restrictions for 2008 being eliminated by any of the major associations?

Posted Discussion
Sept. 23, 2007
audieh
Men's 60
241 posts
Are geographical restrictions for 2008 being eliminated by any of the major associations?
Will any of the associations change their antiquated geographical restrictions for 2008? Currently Hunt, NSA and LVSSA have the least limiting restrictions. I believe this is the best way to go for the major plus divisions in all age groups. Lets get back to real softball and do away with geographic restrictions, inning run limits, limited home runs, etc. LET MY PEOPLE GO!
Sept. 24, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Great post. While you're at it, get rid of time limits, the mat, the commitment line, courtesy runners, and Senior bats.

Now that would be getting back to "real softball".
Sept. 24, 2007
RochBob
53 posts
I agree 100%

How would you like to have the borders of
North Dakota-South Dakota-Iowa and Wisconsin?
And then try to get enough players for a 70's team.
It is ridiculous.
One thing about it the people in the big Meccas on the East and west Coast don't have to worry because they get all of our snowbirds. They hav a surplus of players.

I have sent several emails complaining about the borders one has to work with.

Living in a small metropolitan area one has to catch on to a team where ever he can.
Sept. 24, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Bob, good point. To get back to "real softball" you also have to get rid of the snowbird rule.
Sept. 24, 2007
replant
97 posts
TNG---I read your posts whenever I need a little comic relief. They are for the most part, really funny. I can only assume you are poking a little fun at the boys. If not, you're a real cynic. There is no such thing as "real softball" . It's like calling a 1956 DeSoto a "real car". I assume you know "Leave it to Beaver "was only a TV program not a "real family".
Sept. 24, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
replant, that is why I put it in quotes. Well, that and audie used the term so I use the quotation marks to quote him.

Though seriously I would make all of the changes I mentioned in here so that the Senior game is closer to the "real sofball" that was played when we were younger and that by-and-large the kids stil do today. No need for Seniors to have different rules or equipment, at least none that I can see.
Sept. 24, 2007
replant
97 posts
TNG-you also need to remember we are no longer "younger" and modifications like no sliding in to home plate and 5 run innings and a few other such rules take that into account for seniors. I watched some 80 years olds play and if these rules would not be in place, they would be home in a recliner.
Sept. 24, 2007
Gary Heifner
248 posts
Yep, TNG, lets get back to the old days. You know when we used the HOT DOT ball that came back at the pitcher so fast youcouldn't get your glove up. The era where the pitcher was open game and the other team would cheer when they hit you in the nationals. Let's go back to aluminum bats when many of the top hitters in the country would cut off the end of the bat and put tennis balls or super balls in the barrell and weld it back so you couldn't tell. Then, they would cut the handle off, add 1 to 2 inches to the length and weld it back for more leverage in the swing. Let's bring back the metal spikes so you can cut a guy up. You keep attacking senior bats. Are you a weak hitter that can't hit them and are jealous of guys who can or are you a big hitter that is mad because a smaller man might be able tohit one out in your territory????
Sept. 24, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
replant, I can slide into second and third, what makes home less safe?

I contend that sliding into home is much safer for the catcher, who has everything in front of him, than into second or third when the infielder could easily have his back to the sliding runner. Seriously, what is the difference?

And how are 5-run innings needed for Seniors? What benefit, other than to the lesser of the two teams, do they provide?
Sept. 24, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Gary, a bit melodramatic there.

I NEVER had trouble getting my glove up, including against Steeles, Teamsters 293, and Softball City.

Maybe I am lucky, but I have NEVER heard any "cheering" when a pitcher got hit.

Only guys who did not know how to position themselves got cut up by spikes. My son played hardball in the infield in spikes for 5 years, including a season in college, and never got cut once. Never see it in the pros either. It is guys who don't know what they are doing who got cut.

"Are you a weak hitter that can't hit them and are jealous of guys who can or are you a big hitter that is mad because a smaller man might be able tohit one out in your territory????" I have no idea what you think your point is with this one.
Sept. 24, 2007
replant
97 posts
TNG you know the exception to every rule. Therfore you must know the rule. If you truly don't know why these rules were set up, do some research. I'm not biting.
Sept. 24, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Bite on what? I asked intelligent questions, but I guess in the wrong place. The catcher is much safer when a runner slides into home than the 2B is when he is taking a throw from left and the runner is sliding in behind him. That is fact, agree or not.

And what does the 5-run limit do again?
Sept. 24, 2007
replant
97 posts
your implying everyone throws a stike to home plate.
Sept. 24, 2007
replant
97 posts
I ment strike to home plate. Get a little in a hurry sometimes. These posts keep ya hopping ya know.
Sept. 24, 2007
replant
97 posts
I'll splain 5 run limit if I must. Many teams come from areas that the talent is sparse. The 5 run limit gives the weak team at least a time to bat before it hits 50-0 in the first inning. At least they get to bat a couple of times. This rule applies in leagues also. Maybe in Tournaments with Major Plus teams they should change that rule. do ya get the picture?
Sept. 25, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
replant, no I am not but it just doesn't matter. The entire play is still in FRONT of the catcher, making it much easier for him to make the play then the infielders at second in particular but even at third.

Again, why was sliding banned at the plate when there are many less problems there than at second?
Sept. 25, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
I figured that was the reason. So for those few situations when a team would be losing 50-0 in the first we all have to play with what is really kind of a silly rule?
Sept. 25, 2007
replant
97 posts
silly to you not "WE".
Sept. 25, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Fair enough, but how is it beneficial? It minimizes the importance of defense. It used to be that you had to catch the ball 3 times to get to hit again. In other words you earned it. Now all you have to do is let them score 5 runs and you get to bat.
Sept. 25, 2007
replant
97 posts
if you watch enough of the older senior teams, you'll have your explaination. The games could last forever.
Sept. 25, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
I'll buy that, but then why not have separate rules for them? 50 year olds should be able to catch the ball 3 times and earn their ups. It just seems another way to diminish the need for defense.
Sept. 25, 2007
audieh
Men's 60
241 posts
I lot of good feedback with this post, BUT, I'd like to get back to the real question at hand. That is should geographical restrictions be eliminated or at least eased for the major plus divisions. Are there any plans by any of the summit organizations to ease restrictions?
Sept. 25, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
I am sure they should. Just open it all up to the highest bidders, like the young guys do and what our generation did years ago. Major-+ should be treated as a different animal.
Sept. 25, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2650 posts
TNG,The reason that home is a more dangerous spot than 2nd or 3rd is that the runner is usually running full speed through home, and is usually stopping at 2nd or third or sliding. Now, if you want to make sliding manditory at home then I can see your point.
Sept. 25, 2007
replant
97 posts
good post!
Sept. 25, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
And I was assuming it would be. I want to see safety as much as the next guy, I was just not seeing how a runner sliding into your base/plate from directly in front of you is more dangerous than a guy sliding into second potentially behind the fielder who cannot see him coming.
Sept. 25, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
The more I think about it, treat home like any other base. Why can every other infielder be expected to tag runners, but the catcher isn't? What is the difference? Again, it would safer for him than it is a 2B tagging a runner on a throw coming in from left, not that I find either particularly dangerous.
Sept. 25, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Home plate is treated almost exactly as first base. All plays at the plate are a force play, the difference being that a 1B can make a tag up the line if needed. If the runner touches the plate, he/she is out. If a defensive player makes a tag play on a runner that has passed the commitment line but not yet crossed the scoring line (or touched the scoring plate), the runner is safe. These are purely safety based rules to prevent any re-enactment of the Pete Rose/Ray Fosse collision. It makes perfect sense to have it that way, especially as maybe our reflexes and the ability to change directions on the fly may not be as good as we think they once were.
Sept. 25, 2007
chollis
79 posts
Wow, thread hijackers everywhere. Maybe you should have asked about the safety issues on the bases and then someone might try to answer your original question. NOT

Being you have two strikes already on the question and I hate to see my bro strike out, (not really), I repost your original question and we'll see where this one heads off to.

Are geographical restrictions for 2008 being eliminated by any of the major associations?
Will any of the associations change their antiquated geographical restrictions for 2008? Currently Hunt, NSA and LVSSA have the least limiting restrictions. I believe this is the best way to go for the major plus divisions in all age groups. Lets get back to real softball and do away with geographic restrictions, inning run limits, limited home runs,
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
DG, I figured it was safety-based but what about safety at the other bases? How is home more unsafe than 2b or 3b?

As far as the Fosse thing, which I lived through here in Cleveland, there is already a rule to prevent runners blasting catchers, so I am not sure more is needed.
Sept. 26, 2007
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
And there is a rule eliminating the tag at home.
Sept. 26, 2007
Bob50
Men's 60
240 posts
I think Desert Guy indicated why sliding home is unnecessary in his post. TNG has indicated that he has played in senior softball tournamnets so you must realize that you do not score by touching the normal home plate. You run thru a scoring line or touch a second plate that is the scoring plate. It is a force play at home once you pass the commitment line. There is really no purpose in sliding. The idea is to protect the catcher and the runner. We realize that sliding is allowed at other bases. The second home plate or scoring line is a senior rule that I believe most senior players accept as a reasonable rule to play by. Is it different than for the young guys--sure. So what?
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Yes there is, I just don't get why at home only. Who decided that second and third are safer than home? The reality is they are not.
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Bob, my thinking is to get rid of the second plate and the commitment line. Just play home like any other base. Like everyone else in softball and baseball does.

Again, who decided that this should occur only at home? And why? Just wondering, as I don't see any logical reason.
Sept. 26, 2007
Bob50
Men's 60
240 posts
TNG,
I think it is a reasonable question to ask. I didn't make the rule so I can't give you the answer you are asking;however, my opinion is that the most serious injuries will happen during a play at home.

I know you have questioned a lot of the rules for senior ball and that is fine but where do you draw the line? To take it to an extreme would eliminate age limits?

Even the younger players have rules in softball that are different from baseball. Exactly what rules do you think everyone should play under?

As far as the original thread--why not just have a geographical limit of east and west of the Mississippi? The smaller states that have a variety of quality players would then be able to participate at their appropriate level. If not a general rule then how about one for major plus and maybe major players?
Sept. 26, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Apologies to audieh for continuing this hijacked flight. TNG, there is a big difference between home plate vs. 2B and 3B. The usual intent is to get from 3B to home as fast as possible, with no thought of slowing down, at least not before the backstop looms ahead. At 2B or 3B there is the issue of not over runnning the base and being at risk of being put out. The full-speed ahead approach to scoring by players that aren't as nimble on their feet as they think they once were is the reason for the scoring line/plate. The logic is consistent wth what has been the norm at 1B in senior softball with the double white/orange 1B. It's a run-through situation there too, so splitting the 'safe' area to the double bag at 1B to prevent ankle/llower leg entanglements is exactly the same theory at Home with respect to collisions. The logic and intent, which I sure hope you can grasp, is identical, being a setup that reduces the odds of a catastrophic collision at either place without detracting from the fundamental nature of the game. TNG, this one is really pretty obvious IMHO.
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
DG, I know safety is the issue, and in one sense I cannot argue with that. But I still play with the kids, as many here do, and of course only one plate is used and there is basically NO catastrophic collisions there. And honestly, it is not pretty obvious. Wasn't when I first starting watching older friends play Seniors, and still isn't to me.

Over 32 years of playing softball, and more including playing hardball and watching my 5 children play all forms of the game, I have seen much more "damage" at 2B and 3B than I have at home. Again, I realize it is for safety but still don't see how home is more dangerous than the other bases.

I suppose the risk increases with catchers who don't know how to position themselves for a play at the plate, but then whose fault is that? The same can happen with an infielder who does not know how to position themselves at 2B or 3b.

Not trying to argue, just keep wondering how plays at the plate are different than the other bases, and how plays at the plate in Senior ball are different than any other form of baseball or softball.
Sept. 26, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
TNG- This is getting pretty repetitive, but here are the answers to your questions.

1. Plays at the plate (and at 1B) are different than 2B and 3B becase they are high speed run-through plays. You are correct about some people not knowing how to position themselves at 2B and 3B, but that's a different issue.

2. Plays at the plate are different for Seniors becase they involve older, presumably more fragile players. It's simply a safety precaution as a concession to age, fragility and agility.

Different ages in baseball require concessions for the sake of safety. Best example I can think of is the Little League limits on pitch count. Those limits aren't present in any other level of baseball that I know of, but no one seems to object to them becase the protect the arms of the younger players. And no one seems to think that they diminish the game at that level.

Same is true in the Seniors. It's different, but it's a supportable difference. And if it's a difference that you prefer to not have, then my suggestion would be to continue playing at some level of play that has rules that fit your liking. I don't see this 1B and Home scoring line/plate changing in my lifetime.
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
I am sure it won't change in either of our lifetimes.

By the way, anytime there is a tag at second or third is is also a high'speed play. There are many times when you have to bust your butt to get to either of those bases ahead of the ball and tag.
Sept. 26, 2007
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
But you're not running at full speed, and if you are you must not have planned on stopping any time soon. They have the run-through at 2nd and 3rd in some older leagues so nobody gets hurt trying to slide.

You keep on arguing about this obvious safety issue. Do you want to have everyone just agree with you? I think if they did you would find something else to argue about. Please, see the logic in what they say and just stop your constant nit picking on every thread. (By the way, you don't have to respond to this but, for some reason, I think you will.)
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Sorry, but I have to ask. Why would home be the only base runners are in a hurry to get to? You have never hustled into second or third?
Sept. 26, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Hey Gary- If this is one of those gotta have the last word things, then I understand. But you're starting to look like you know less rather than more about the game if you think that hustling into 2B and 3B is the same as hustling into 1B and Home in all cases. It's not, at least not in any league that doesn't allow run-throughs at all bases. At 2B and 3B, letting up to stay on your feet and not over run, or sliding low and hard is fine. But it's not the same as the no stopping on the dime options at 1B and Home. The issue isn't hustling, it's STOPPING after you do! .. Go ahead and take the last word and let's move off this hijacked thread
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
I know far more than it sounds like you are able to grasp.

Any run through at home should only occur if there is no play at the plate (now I am talking normal softball, not Seniors), in which case the catcher should not be anywhere near the runner. If there is a play (again, normal softball) the runner most likely will be sliding to try and avoid the tag. So if the catcher is properly positioned, well really in either case, there is no chance of collision.

Now on the bases if there is to be a close play the runner should be running hard to the base, and subsequently sliding hard as well, directly to the base both to avoid a tag and to avoid over-running the base. But many times in this case the infielder could have his back to the incoming runner as he awaits the throw. This is NOT the case at the plate as the entire play is in front of the catcher.

I was doubting it, buy maybe I am the only one on this board who runs hard to second or third and then slides into the base.
Sept. 26, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Gary, you're not the only one that hustles, but it does appear you are the only one that doesn't grasp the fundamental difference beterrn a run through base (1B and Home in the Senior game) and 2B and 3B ...
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Then why aren't there constant collisions at home in all the other situations where there is a single plate if it is so dangerous? What makes "run throughs" so dangerous to you?
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Sorry for not adding this to the last post.

DG, the catcher stands in front of the plate where he belongs and the runner runs through and steps on the plate. Where is the high risk of collision/injury/danger?
Sept. 26, 2007
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
What if the throw sails into the path of the runner? Is the catcher just not supposed to try for those? If he does, he runs the risk of a collision with the runner attempting to score (at a high rate of speed). The second plate alleviates this. Just common sense and I think you know that but just want to argue.

Maybe there is a debating board out there somewhere that you can join and argue with other people about obvious things. Why don't you go there and leave us alone.
Sept. 26, 2007
Bob50
Men's 60
240 posts
TNG,
You mentioned on an earlier post in this thread that players don't always know how to position themself for a play at a base. Wouldn't that also apply to home. Unlike second and third a harder slide at home does not require that you maintain contact with the plate therefore the impact and possible injury during contact could be more severe. Do you agree?
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Ken, what if the earth opens up and swallows him? What if, what if, what if,...........?

You can say the same thing at any base. What if the throw to second is offline and the infielder has to move and gets run into? Or at third.? Or heck, to first?

An anamoly can always occur in sports, you can't nor shouldn't try to over-regulate and make a rule for everything.
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Bob, I do, except as long as the runner is going straight to the plate (and he is out if he doesn't by current rule), there would be little risk of injury. Only if the catcher is not where he belongs, and whose fault is that. Not to say I want to see a catcher who doesn't know what he is doing get hurt, but why make all of us play with strange rules to protect what are hopefully the few who don't know the game?

Perhaps the second plate could be used in the older age groups for various reasons, but 50s should be able to postion themselves and play the game properly.
Sept. 26, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Now that we have the matter resolved that some people from some age groups should be able to find home plate and be able to stand in the right spot, it's time to take this hijacked plan to another airport.

Gary, why do you think the sun HAS to rise in the east every day? Wouldn't it be better if it came up in the west so that all of those playing fields that have bad sun sitatins would be ok to play on?

(This should be good for another 15-20 ridiculous posts)
Sept. 26, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
No need, your last ridiculous one covers it all.

This is why the Senior game suffers, NO one wants to think outside the tiny little box.
Sept. 26, 2007
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Including you it seems TNG. Your "tiny little box" in this case is the batter's box area. :))
Sept. 26, 2007
replant
97 posts
Ever had a broken bone as a senior TNG? The healing is a wee bit slower than for the 22 year olds you keep talking about. Common sense says senior have brittle bones and a much slower recovery time. Why not have rules that allow for more playing and less recovering. When your laid up someday, you'll be thinkin, "there ought to be a rule!" By the way, if a tree falls in the forest when no one is around, does it make any noise?
Sept. 26, 2007
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
394 posts
Doing away with geographic restrictions could be a real difficult call. It may make sense in some situations where a player cannot find a team to play on in his appropriate division. I can also see some rich sponsor loading up with the best players money can buy making it an uneven playing field and that "might" be okay at the lower divisions as you would think that it should move more teams up the divisions into major and major plus.

IMO a live plate at home in slow pitch is not a good idea for a verity of reasons. I like the fact that accidental and even willful collisions at home have been fundamentally eliminated. I also like the initiative some years ago of the safety bag at first base. Far too many players think the catcher is open season. Unlike baseball, catchers wear no protection. I kind of like the game the way it is. I say leave it alone.

Is the senior game suffering? I thought I read somewhere that senior softball is the fastest growing category in slow pitch.
Sept. 26, 2007
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Gary.........You are wrong about home plate. If the catcher is in front of the plate, I am not only going to slide to touch home plate, but also to take the catcher out. I want to make sure that he drops the ball. I thought you played with kids? That is the way it is done in Cali. So long as we don't barrel through the catcher, any slide will do.
Sept. 27, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
replant, I have said numerous times in this thread that I understand it is for safety. It just seems to me to be misguided. Home plate is NO more unsafe than third and certainly second.

Again, why is normal softball played at second but not at home? Specifically what makes home less safe? The entire play is in front of the catcher, NOT the case at second. The catcher can see everything coming in front of him. Just stand where you belong and the catcher is completely safe.

Only Bruce even attempted to deal with specifics and reality.
Sept. 27, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
salio, I completely agree that is done, IF the catcher is in your path or even reasonably close. But the same thing can and is done at second and third, so why is this additional base/plate only at home? If you are trying to safe Senior guys from sliding runners why not have special rules at the other bases?

Guys, I just don't get why this accommodation only at the plate. It is NOT inherently more dangerous than the other bases. That is all I am trying to have explained.
Oct. 1, 2007
replant
97 posts
TNG-Your trying to get rules decisions from players. Contact the guys that made the rules and they can explain it, along with stats you may find worthy. Go to the source if the answers you get here only agitate you.
Oct. 1, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
I am only 50, so kind of new to this. Do you older guys know where this rule originated?

I am not sure I am agitated, but just don't see how a runner sliding in front of me is more dangerous than one coming in from behind me.
Oct. 1, 2007
cpope
Men's 60
160 posts
So Audie, is the geographical restrictions for 2008 any differant?
Get an answer from anyone? :)
Oct. 1, 2007
replant
97 posts
It will all be clearer in a few years. contact the people at SSUSA directly. Nobody on this board seemss to have the correct answers. I'm unsure if even their answers will fill your need.
Oct. 1, 2007
TheNextGeneration
Men's 50
307 posts
Good point. Thanks.
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