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Discussion: pitcher saftey

Posted Discussion
Dec. 1, 2008
balco
Men's 50
78 posts
pitcher saftey
not long ago a tournament was thrown in arkansas which had 5 home runs a game and one up. any bat and any ball could be used. the pitchers mound had a screen. if the screen was hit it was a dead ball foul. the team i played for finished 4th so we were around all day. there were not that many balls hit at the screen. everyone was on an even playing field and there was no arguing what so ever. if it hit the screen it was a foul. period. you got no extra foul, so if you had two strikes and hit the screen it was foul then there were no fouls left. the tournament was a great sucess and everyone was happy.
just a thought.
Dec. 1, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
Personally, I would be suspicious of anything that makes everyone happy. There has to be some vicious conspiracy in the background... maybe you can't see it but you know that it's there.
:-)
BW
Dec. 2, 2008
leftie
Men's 50
41 posts
So, I guess if a ball hits an inanimate object, that's grounds for a call by the umpire.
If it hits a live pitcher...Stone silence..Hmmm.
The reason very few players went after the "screen " is because they knew the umpire would make a call..Maybe if SSUSA would transfer that to live pitchers, they might have something.
Dec. 2, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
Leftie:
You do understand that these examples are from two different arenas? Since they are, making a valid comparison is like picking up Mercury with a fork.
The spirit of the SSUSA rule is to protect the pitcher when he/she cannot protect himself/herself... it isn't to 'close the middle'. A 52 hopper doesn't fall within the basic premise of the rule.
SSUSA doesn't use a screen but if a hard hit ball hits the pitcher the hitter is out (if in the umpire's judgement the pitcher couldn't make the play).
BW
Dec. 2, 2008
leftie
Men's 50
41 posts
Wood:
Yes, i understand the rule because I've lived it.
The most telling part of your statement is "umpires judgement".
They tend to put a natural relex to protect ones self in the same boat as making a play on the ball.
If a guy has his glove over his jewels, I don't think that is making a play on the ball...Not the ball coming up the middle anyway.
..And, incidently, I've never seen a 52 bouncer coming back at me...It always 100+ ...
Dec. 2, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
Umpire's judgement is pretty integral in the game... this rule didn't invent it.
The 52 hopper wasn't my example... it was Balco's, who initiated the post.
I take it that you're advocating using a pitchering screen full time?
BW
Dec. 2, 2008
leftie
Men's 50
41 posts
Absolutely not..I'm just saying that if you take the middle away..For instance, anything between the white lines of the pitchers box is an out(the 52 bouncer might be at issue ). Players will tend go elsewhere because they've played the game for 40years and know how to hit....Well..
I believe that some hitters are going up the middle now because they know the umpire is going to say the pitcher was making a play on the ball or the pitcher was out of the back of the box.
why is there a back of the box?
SSUSA has taken home plate out of play to protect both catcher and runner..They have even gone so far as to put a "Safety" bag at first. So, if they're really out to protect the pitcher, take away the middle.
Dec. 2, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
Leftie:
I'm not sure how well you know all of the senior batters but some us never went at the pitcher anyway. It is my strong feeling that hitting at him/her makes zero sense... it could be an out or it might hurt him.. or both. This rule does not change my approach at all... not because the rule is too light weight but because of what I previously stated... I prefer to not make outs (DBO or otherwise) and I don't need to hit a pitcher to prove a point. I make enough outs already so I surely won't do it intentionally.
As far as the 6' box having a back to it... there is a point when the pitcher has to be a fielder... if he/she gets back further than 56', more power to him/her. The rule is designed to protect those within 56' of home plate. Period.
If you feel that you need further protection, you ought to consider wearing protective gear... or don't pitch. The rule is what it is.
BW
Dec. 2, 2008
leftie
Men's 50
41 posts
Wood;
I do wear protective gear because i've seen senior and non-senior hitters for a long time.
I guess we'll agree to disagree..and that's fine..
I just wonder if anyone told catchers not to catch and the same to first basemen before they implemented their safety provisions.
I can envison some mad scientist type in the bowels of Combat, Miken or others trying to get more "trampoline" effect out of the next bat in order for the 98 pound weakling to hit homers..Problem is the 6'-7" , 260 pounder uses the same bat.
I guess some pitcher will have to pay the ultimate price before someone says "maybe we should have another look at the rule".
But, It's been nice talking about this issue with you..
Dec. 2, 2008
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
I do umpire, and I do not like the rule, but we are out there to enforce rules even when we think that they have nothing to do with the original intention. Safety is important for pitchers, infielders, outfielders, batters, runners, fans, and officials. This rule does nothing to protect a pitcher, but equipment would. Would I make it mandatory, no way. I feel the same way about ASA's rule to protect the pitcher, allow them to wear a 1B mitt. Again this really does nothing to protect a pitcher. This game has been around a long time, and while it is admirable to worry about pitchers, this rule will not do it. In my opinion only, it borders on making a travesty of the game. There was a rule a few years back in NSA that was nothing but a bad one, which was the jewelry ejection rule. I did not like it but enforced it. Fortunately NSA finally changed it. Hopefully this one too will pass.
Dec. 2, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
Leftie:
We really don't disagree on as much as you might think. I simply take the position that I don't have to like/dislike a rule but I do have to respect it (abide by it).
Whether this particular rule is 'right or wrong', it is defintely a step further than any other assn has taken.
BW
Dec. 2, 2008
leftie
Men's 50
41 posts
Wood:
Not exactly. Other associations have banned the Ultra2, Launch 510, Combat and others. Which, in effect, has protected the pitcher.
I've heard the story of the drunk who turned his back and was killed by an EST.
Maybe single wall Aluminum 38 oz. is where it's at..Just kidding..
Dec. 3, 2008
BONES
Men's 60
93 posts
BOB AND LEFTY---help me out with this. I'am not real good with big words and i"am a little confused so bear with me. The subject is saftey for the pitcher. I don't understand why we would want to take away part of the battlefield and/or the equitment we now are allowed to use. As i posted earlier Pitcher has the right to wear Mask---shine guards--chest protector---helment--cup etc etc. Would this not be enough protection for any pitcher.IMO It would be more than enough. This would take away all judgement calls ---leave the complete field open for whereever u want to hit the ball. Screens may have their place and all the other pitcher saftey rules may have a place in league and rec. play i agree, Keep it simple and make pitcher play his position with THE OPTION to wear all the protection he/she might need.Does this make any scents or am i way off base?????????-----Iam thinking if a major League hardball catcher can get drilled by a 100mph fast ball from pitcher --and have very little effect ------That same equitment would protect are pitchers and leave the game to be played using every inch of space between the white lines. Simple is better IMO----What do u think?????
SB
Dec. 3, 2008
leftie
Men's 50
41 posts
Bones:
I think you echo the feelings of a lot of players who like to hit up the middle.
SSUSA attempted to put in a rule to protect the pitcher.
I'm sure they weren't just sittng around one day and decided to do it. There must have been a reason to do this.
Problem is, it's a lousy rule at best and does not protect the pitcher. Mainly because they left the decision up to the umpire.
You mentioned hardball..Well, collisions at homeplate are part of baseball..Instead of making the catcher in softball wear protective equipment, they put in an extra plate.
Same with first base..To avoid collisions, a safety bag was installed.
All I'm asking, as are other pitchers, if there is going to be a rule, put some teeth in it and make it work.
Dec. 3, 2008
BONES
Men's 60
93 posts
LEFTIE---please dont try and make anything out of my post then what i posted. Forget the confused and i don't understand part-very poor choice of words. i understand completely. Last time i'll post on this simple subject----as a pitcher if i want to protect myself I''LL WEAR THE PROTECTIVE GEAR A PITCHER IS ALLOWED TO WEAR. i DON'T WANT TO TAKE ANY PART OF THE PLAYING FIELD AWAY FROM THE GAME. i ALSO DON'T WANT IT TO BE A JUDGEMENT CALL BY A UMPIRE----Read the hardball part again----it was a example of protective gear protecting a player---Had nothing to do with homeplate--firstbase or collison of players---as far as echoing players that hit up the middle----throw me meat and ill buzz the tower( as the wood so politily said) but with no intent on hitting or hurting anyone---throw outside ill go right side--throw inside i;ll pull the ball. I believe thats still all part of the game.
SB
Dec. 3, 2008
BONES
Men's 60
93 posts
leftie---after reading your post again i might have misjudged your intent ----------if i did so i apolize --no disrepect ment----------this pitcher safety thing has been beat to death and is a subject that involes me and my play. I just what to keep the field the same while at the same time nobody gets hurt. TC
SB
Dec. 3, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
Leftie:
There are 5-6 senior assns that allow 1.2 bats... there are only a couple that do not... ASA and ISSA (an ASA spin off). They both allowed them at one time... at the time that they did (parts of 2002 and 2003), were they just callous about safety? Or, is the real reason that they ban 1.2 bats about something other than safety? Recognize that NSA and USSSA are no longer part of the Senior Softball Summit.
Are you privy to any meaningful stats about pitcher safety? i.e. data that distinguishes between 98 mph and 1.2 bats? I am asking for data that relates specifically to the number of serious injuries in one v. the other. I am not asking for the batted ball speeds, etc... this has been presented many times in the past. If you have this (or if anyone else does), please share it.
My previous point was that SSUSA is the first senior assn to put in a rule which, in their opinion, is designed to protect the pitcher. I have a real hard time buying into the statement that says the new rule provides a false sense of security (not that you made it). If this is so, then every local police department does the same... can they be at all places at all times?
For instance, ASA has a maximum HR rule (9) and thereafter it's an out. Does this protect or hinder the pitcher once the HRs are gone? If it's the latter, perhaps ASA's motivation to ban 1.2 bats has little to do with pitcher safety. Also, when the 1.2 bats are banned, are you one that believes that the remaining bats are all legal? So, if you're pitching in the ASA arena and someone hits you with a screamer while using an abnormal Easton Flex, you'll probably just chalk it up to chance. After all, ASA has made a real statement for pitcher's safety. BTW, the batter that hit you with the shaved Easton won't be called out... but it won't be a judgement call.
In my opinion, cheater bats are the biggest reason to continue to allow 1.2... at least the playing field is level and the defensive players know what to expect. But this is a different point altogether.
The DBO may not be perfect but it's the best out there... the only one out there. Speculating as to why SSUSA put the DBO into effect? My guess is for pitcher safety... will it be modified? I do not know... my theory is to let time be the judge of that. But a pitcher is better off with it than without it.
BW
Dec. 3, 2008
leftie
Men's 50
41 posts
Bones--No apology necassary.

Wood:
I'm not a stat sort of person. i just know what I've observed in the years I've played and from the games i watched and played in Phoenix and Vegas.
It is just my opinion that all the arguments I observed and was involved in, the pitcher protection rule needs some work. I hope that because of all the feedback SSUSA must have received by now, they will revisit this issue in the off season.
I don't play in other senior associations and when I play in USSSA and ASA, I have to leave my bats in the bag.
Illegal bats? That's a whole different discussion.
If someone is caught using an illegal bat, they should be banned.
If they cause another player injury using an illegal bat, they should be charged criminally.
And yes, I have played against teams that, when the homeruns are over, they come up the middle.
Must be some unwritten rule..
Anyway, we've probably use more space here than we should have.
My name is Danny, I play with the Desperados from Albuquerque in 50 AAA and I'm number 13. Stop by sometime and say hello..
Dec. 4, 2008
the wood
1085 posts
Leftie:
I agree with almost everything that you have stated...
I play in the 60s out of So Cal/AZ (GSF)... we might not cross paths very often... but I'll keep an eye peeled for you.
BW
Dec. 4, 2008
stick8
1298 posts
Balco, we host a mens tournament similar to that called a pitcher safety tournament. No ultra bats allowed, but we use a good ball--the EVIL ball, hit the screen it's a dead ball out, we play on a hardball field (320 down each line, 340 in the gaps and 375 in center), we use 80 ft bases and unlimited home runs. Sounds like a big field and it is but the EVIL ball has a stamp that says "Caution: This Sucker flies"--and does it ever.
The tourney is a lot of fun and the only obstacle faced is a throw from center field to home can hit the screen.
Dec. 5, 2008
balco
Men's 50
78 posts
stick8, where is the tournament?? i don t care what bat is legal, i would love to play that foremat, except the out, i prefer the foul. a throw from center should be cut off by the first baseman if the throw is not high enough. anyway, email me at rhinos40@aol.com with details, would love to play if it is not too far.
thanks
larkan
Dec. 5, 2008
balco
Men's 50
78 posts
guys, i played in georgia and used my regular freak part of the time. it makes no difference to me what bat is useable, most guys that hit bombs are not going to care but, BE AWARE, IF YOU BAN THE ULTRA ll, THE SHAVED BATS WILL APPEAR, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. so it is six one way half dozen the other.
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