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Discussion: The majority did speak for themselves in 2009--

Posted Discussion
Dec. 20, 2009
spoonplugger
Men's 60
58 posts
The majority did speak for themselves in 2009--
I went to 8 SSUSA tournaments this past season. Played a lot of games and watched a lot of games. Seems to me almost all the teams had 10-15+ senior bats in their dugouts. All our pitchers and opposing pitchers seemed to be using them. They seemed to think it was okay. Didn't matter which age division either.
Dec. 21, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
They are fine to use, as long as no one wants to make any bizarre rules because of them.

Dec. 21, 2009
Player25
Men's 55
51 posts
I would agree that most senior players are using the senior bats but does that automatically mean they preferred them? I remember several years ago when the T4000 came out. We went to the first tourney of the year not knowing about them and got drummed. Could not compete without using them. Is the same thing happening here? To me, not using the senior bats would be like taking a knife to a gun fight. It would be interesting to poll the players to find out what combo they prefer. (They could chose from any available, not just the senior equipment)
Dec. 21, 2009
Paco13
364 posts
I love the senior bats, now I can hit HRs in a more consistent basis than when I was at my best (younger). However, I only use them because what Player25 just explained. Personally Utrip bats and 44/375 balls is more than sufficient. HR hitters still can get their groove on and we line drive hitters and defensive players can go back to be normal again. I believe that is irresponsible of these assns to have these kind of bat/ball combos. However money talks…
Dec. 21, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Plugger, right on.
It's about time we stand up for ourselves
against special interests and
party poopers who claim
"the high road" of morality when it's obviously not where they're coming from.

We can change the game and make it safer
anytime we want with simple rule changes
for pitching or mandating safety gear.
If they were really concerned about safety
as they portray themselves
they'd be in favor of any/all of these changes
wouldn't they.
But they're not.

Dec. 21, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
How would you feel about unlimited arch?
Dec. 21, 2009
Mr. Manassas
226 posts
Can I ask one question...Isn't OK too assume that the bats and balls meet some specifications that would allow the "normal" guy to react. At some point is there such a thing as hitting the ball too far?
Dec. 21, 2009
curty
Men's 60
103 posts
einstein,I find your comments to paco very insensitive. Who doctored YOUR usssa bats and are your bats all doctored? I agree that the game was meant to be played to the best of our ability but the majority of the players I have contact with are against the current equipment. It is survival that dictates it's use because of guys like you that portend to speak for the majority. If you don't have facts and figures from the majority you should not assume that we all agree with you. I have seen you play and you are very good, and would still be better than the average if using "softer " equipment. Do you need to hit the ball farther or harder? I'm a good hitter and pride myself on working on my defense, but don't get to use it much. This is a very important part of my game, taken away by a little extra in the bats and balls. I play second base and hope the new middle rule will afford me more opportunities on defense!!
Dec. 21, 2009
curty
Men's 60
103 posts
On another note-- when we talk about the middle being hit more if homers are outs, I wonder who is hitting the middle? Sounds like it must be the home run hitters? If so, and they are as good as they say, why not hit away from the pitcher any way? A hit to left or right field is the same as one off the pitcher anyway. At 61 yrs old I play to enjoy all the stuff listed elsewhere on this site concerning World Champions.Even when we are not the winners. I personally would really feel terrible if I hurt someone during a softball game and especially a senior!
Dec. 21, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You obviously don't know how hot regular
USSSA bats can be.
I saw a player from Lansing
win a home run hitting contest at SPA
with a USSSA bat.
Since you asked,
I don't play with or
have any fixed bats.
Dec. 21, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Curty,

joe is right when broke in the USSSA bats are almost as good as a broke in U-2. What he leaves out is it is meant for a lesser ball than we use in SS/USA and SPA.
Dec. 21, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Curty.
You don't know the game or
you're working an angle for someone
or some reason.
When home runs are outs
all players are told to save home runs
or not to hit then unless there's 2 guys
on base FROM THE FIRST INNING.
This means guys who normally swing away
from their first AB, don't and look for a way
to get on base.
The easiest field to go to
in order to get on base
is up/through the middle.
Most guys don't have enough BP
and training to have an automatic
single swing away from the middle.
Also, lots of us who are having trouble
getting their swings together are taught
to hit the ball straight back to get their timing back.
Dec. 21, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Butch.
Meant for?
Whose meaning yours or mine or whomevers.
That standard has been used by
SSUSA well before
the balls were dumbed down.
Dec. 21, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

The home run smoke screen doesnt work with me and I believe others are starting to see past the smoke now.

Guys were saying the same thing when they were singles and or walks after the limit.

Working on swing and timing I believe starts early in the game not after home runs are gone. More smoke!!
Dec. 21, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Also I sad USSSA not SSusa. and a broke in USSSA bat would not meet their specs with the other balls that is why they changed to a lesser ball.
Dec. 21, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Being a safety advocate that you are Joe and suggesting changing the arch how would unlimited be for you? Simple yes or no answer will do.
Dec. 21, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Yes and thanks for noting
I miss stated SSUSA for USSSA.
God, am I getting old.

You seem like you my have another interest
in your argument Butch.
It's obvious that when HR's are made
outs that more ripped balls
go through the middle.
Obvious. Given. Not even arguable.
Almost not to be take seriously.
This is so obviously true that the more
you oppose it the more ridiculous and
unbelievable you will become.
So knock yourself out.

Let's be clear on this.
You are completely wrong when you say
that making HR's outs doesn't make
more hot balls go ripping through the middle.
Completely wrong.
When guys are at the level of Parnell,
Burbank and Waldyte
you will never see a ball go through the middle
by intention and hardly ever because these
guys are so accomplished,
the upper 2 percent of hitters in Senior ball
and not representative of the most of us.
The majority of hitters that might/could
go yard and who love to hit the ball
as hard as they can somewhere
will be concerned about 'wasting' HRs
and take the ball more often
right through the box.
You need to talk to some more hitters.
Maybe I'm spoiled because in California
we have so many terrific hitters
whom I see and play with and against
often I get more feedback from them
directly and watching them
and am therefore able to comment
comfortably about something that is
nothing less than obvious.
I been wrong about lots of things,
Butch so don't feel bad.
You're still respectable and a man to me.
But we REALLY disagree on this one.

I've played unlimited and love pitching it.
It really separates the men from the boys.
But I would go 15 feet which would give
the pitchers significantly more leverage
with most batters ability to tee off comfortably.
I would also extend the pitching rubber
back 6 more feet.
Remember, you're talking to a pitcher
and no one loves to mess with batters
more than me.

Dec. 21, 2009
Player25
Men's 55
51 posts
There are some who advocate no change to the game or going back to playing softball.(with out the "no fly" zone, hrs as outs, etc.) I agree with those folks with the exception, I believe the game has already been changed and I would like to get back to the game before technology took over. The game started with wood bats and much different balls. The move to the "heavy" aluminum bats improved the game to a degree but it definitely cut down on the broken bats. From there technology took over. The balls changed to poly cor (i.e., the Worth Blue Dot (original). Still the game was not changed to the point of being dangerous. Then along came the T4000. A ball that was banned in about 1 year. The bat/ball combo was dangerous and several players paid the ultimate price to prove that point. Then came the CU31 and the C 405 bats. Still not too bad. Then the titanium bat. Banned after 1 year. Then composites came along. The grey Ultra banned. Allowed the senior bats and then the change started with the balls. Began hitting the 47/525. Now the 44/375. IMO trying to slow down the ball speed. I am not against change but when is enough enough? I agree lets not change the game. To not change the game we would need to go back to the original wood bats and cork center balls. Not advocating going back that far but far enough where players do not need to "gear" up to feel safe enough to play. And those who put forth the effort and have the talent to hit the long ball are the ones doing so.
Before it starts, I have no interest in any bat/ball company but an interest to see softball return to the game I grew up playing. It appears there are many others who share this sentiment but may not participate on the board.

Just my $.02.

Hope everyone has a joyous holiday season and that off-season training is going well.
Dec. 21, 2009
spoonplugger
Men's 60
58 posts
Lots of interesting comments here. Just like pitchers have a choice to wear what they want, we have the right to choose an ASA, USSSA or a Senior bat. - Player25 is going to a gunfight, has just been polled and decides Senior bat. - Paco13 says he is a great line drive hitter but only uses a Senior bat because Player25 explained it for him. - I wonder if Mr. Manassas chooses to use a lessor bat so the normal guy can react? - curty says he is good hitter but hasn't said if he will use a lessor bat so his opponents will have more opportunities on defense just like he wants. He doesn't want to hurt a senior but survival dictates. - butch17 so, if the USSSA bats are for a lessor ball and you don't like a Senior bat, will you be choosing an ASA bat? -- Remember, the next time you go up to the plate -- it's your right to choose.
Dec. 21, 2009
JamesLG
300 posts

I would like to see 15' arc limits and 32oz minimum on the bats and keep the 44/375 trump ball and HR's as singles. I think this would slow down the bat speed on some of the guys who should not be hitting the ball over the fence. We could keep the U2 and other senior bats and possibly even be able to send them to the factory to get adjusted to the heavier weight. This way we will not need to go out a buy brand new equipment. Why Not?

James
Dec. 21, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I have never played a game in softball
or hardball that if a hard hit ball
hit someone on the arm, leg or head
where it wouldn't hurt or cause damage
up to and including breaking bones.
I was a catcher in hardball and have broken
many fingers.
I played 3rd base in softball
and had my fingers
broken and sustained many near breaks
and bruises and I'm not done yet.
I pitch and have had both arms broken
and my face hit where I was not really
paying attention enough due to
"following the ball" too long and not
getting into defensive posture to field.

Our game has ALWAYS been dangerous.
It's why were not playing checkers and rocking back and forth on porches.

I think way too much emphasis is on
players being hurt and smacks of other
interests and concerns pushing it to the fore.

One study showed more players were injured
10 years ago than today
before composite bats.
Again, if the game is too fast
and as safety is a true concern
there are easy or some cost free ways
to make pitchers and infielders
less likely to be injured.
We can go to masks, pads and helmets
like they did in hockey.
We can add screens so we can keep
lively balls in the game.
We can change pitching depth, arcs
and angles to give pitchers
more leverage in keeping hitters
off the sweet spot.
Though its a popular theme
like concussions are in football
they're not significant enough
to change the game.
It kills me that in this society
where we're endangering ourselves
and everyone on the planet
irresponsibly by unprovoked agression,
pollution and global warming
where we can get all our fannies
in a bunch about changing a game
we've been playing since 3rd grade.

Safer is better but not if it takes
away the joy that is necessary
to the experience of playing our game.
Dec. 21, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

You say I have other interests in this game and once again you know you are dead wrong.More smoke. By the sound of your comments you must have some interest in something. Is it to promote a certain bat company maybe a certain ball company or maybe one or two other senior organizations. Maybe a company that makes screens? Maybe a company that makes equipment?

You scream the loudest on here about special interests and you know what they say about the cat.
Dec. 21, 2009
JamesLG
300 posts

Joe:

I agree with you 100% on the danger of softball and every sport we play. I have been hit by a golf ball a few times on the coarse and I never bitched about the ball being to hard. I am worried about where all of this control will end. You need to post a schedule of the NorCal tourneys so some of us can start planning for 2010. There is a huge movement to rid the HR ball from SSUSA. Teams either like it or go in another direction.

James
Dec. 21, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
My one and only interest is to make softball fun and enjoyable to the majority of senior players, in ALL divisions and ages.

Dec. 21, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Butch.
If I had as much trouble staying on/
with the issues as you
I might obfuscate, act cute,
or play "gotcha" just like you seem
so much to enjoy.

Back to the issue.
You say that HR's as outs doesn't contribute
to more hot balls being hit through the middle
and I say that's sheer Mularkey,
horse poop and completely wrong.

HR's as outs directly contributes
to more hot balls hit down and hard
through the middle
and you still say this is not true.
Right?
Dec. 21, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Butch.
I think you have other interests
in your argument with me.
I'd like to pursue this further with you.
Would you email me at:
joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
when you get a chance?
Thanks.
Dec. 21, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
JamesLg,

I don't think 10 home runs a game per team is exactly getting rid of the home run. This is the fact very few games reached the home run limits last year and so the argument pitchers will get hit because of no home runs left isnt a feasible argument.

Next they say thats because they were saving them so they went middle. I dont
buy that excuse either as I have played on teams and against teams that said the exact same thing when over the limits were singles and or walks.

Next they say that is where they go because they are working on swing and timing. Are they telling me they dont need swing and timing to hit a home run? If they are working on the above it would be early in the game not late in the game.In my meek opinion.

The best 60 Major Plus team in the country doesnt need 10 home runs a game to beat you and I know they have fun.

Dec. 21, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

I like that play gotcha. I believe it was just a few days ago you corrected me "Butch I said Freak Plus not Freak".

I forgot that it was you so by your standards that made it okay. You are the one that thinks capitalism is out to screw you and you say so, talk about staying on the subject.

You have mail.
Dec. 22, 2009
tinman
Men's 50
75 posts
EINSTEIN,HOLD YOUR GROUND ON MAJORITY OF PLAYERS WANTING THE CURRENT EQUIPMENT.I PLAY FOR A TOP MAJOR TEAM AND ALL PLAYERS ON OUR ROSTER WANT TO KEEP THE CURRENT BAT/BALL COMBO. WE HAVE ADDED 2 NEW PLAYERS FOR 2010 AND THEY AGREE.IF ONE PLAYER WANTS CHANGE HE IS IN THE CLOSET.
Dec. 22, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thank, Butch.
For caring enough to email me.
I'm both impressed, pleased
and apologize for going after you
a time or two instead of trying to keep it and us in the ball park of meaningful
debate.
You're obviously
a good man and thanks again.
We can always disagree as
that should never be a crime.
I still say HR's as outs
creates more flame balls
goingthrough the middle,
good bats and balls forever
and if we play to win the game
free defensive subbing is better
than letting anyone/everyone bat.
Our community is better and stronger
today than yesterday.
Happy holidays, one and all.




Dec. 22, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Thanks Joe.

I also want to apologize for starting to let it get personal.

I still believe in limits and no free substitution.

Happy Holidays
Dec. 22, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You go tinman.
There's isn't ball player alive
that wouldn't rather hit with a lively
bat and ball combo.
It's an innately more satisfying and dynamically enjoyable experience.
Don't worry.
SSUSA, LVSSA, NCSSA and SPA
got the idea or believe us and
will not let the standard go below
a very good 44x375 ball like the Stote
ball or Trumps microcell 44x375 ball
at least for this year.

Dec. 22, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
I would also like to apologize to the players that read and post their opinions on here for my behavior.

I was starting to make it personal and that is wrong. This board should be about information and ideas. Any and everyone in our softball community should be able to express themselves
without ridicule from anyone, even if we don't agree.

Happy Holidays to all of softball friends and foes.
Dec. 22, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, you need to qualify your statement. I know of at least one ballplayer (me) and I would think there are more who would gladly give up some liveliness to the bats and/or balls if it means we won't have to play with ridiculous PPR rules or God forbid a friggin screen in the middle of the infield.

I am amazed at the guys who are willing to screw up the game just so they can have better hitting through someone else's technology.

Now if we get to keep the game the way it was meant to be played, then use whatever bats and balls you want. But NO tradeoffs just to accommodate the egos of insecure old guys.
Dec. 22, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary,
My argument and I think yours too
is not we need/want
plastic or explosive balls and bats
but
we need/want/deserve lively balls and bats
to thoroughly enjoy our softball experience.
And we've already made a huge investment
in present equipment and cringe at the thought of having to scrap our old stuff
and buy new stuff every time we
turn around.
This is how/why I got started on this theme
in the very beginning.
We seemed to be being pushed around
by all the changes, prior and to come
and I, for one, after listening to all the suffering, whining and complaining
simply had enough.
Gary, don't you want to play with good bats
and balls and with that and them,
I agree that if we could
we should go back to no special rules softball and let 'er rip.

Dec. 22, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, good bats and balls are fine. But just NOT if we have to have any kind of a PPR or a screen.

I have an investment in my glove too, and as I know you do I want to be able to use it for more than just catching throws back to me from the catcher.

If we have to make the choice, and I am not sure we do or should, I will give up some ball and bat liveliness to keep the pitcher fielding rules as they have always been.

That is really my only point.
Dec. 22, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3931 posts
joe we have these bats since 2002(u-2's)why do we always have to buy new stuff,unless we are breaking them,thats our fault.if we go to the 52-275 we break less equipment and we save money and lives,so i guess your agruement of us spending money(more of it) in the future doesn't really hold water,now does it.the TD's pay for the balls,so please let us know where we spend all this money,unless you need to have so many bats that it is beyond normal.
Dec. 22, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There's nothing wrong with anyone
in the market place wanting to make money
inventing, improving and selling equipment
to us.
What got me going on this stuff
originally Robert was feeling so frustrated
at continually having to buy new stuff
while having what we buy banned
shortly after.
Everyone was crying and complaining
yet know one was saying or doing anything about it.
Who's to say Robert
the next change will be the last one.
What will stop another standard or company
product from coming into being
and making what we've invested in
no longer appropriate and effective.
I guess that's what having a free economy
means at least in 2009
but we can say we're spinning around too much or spending too much
or not being asked/regarded enough
about what WE want and need
or that standards need to stay in place
year to year for continuity of understanding
and play as well as not getting strung out
having to chase/buy the latest
great product or remedy for our sport,
whatever that may be.
Dec. 22, 2009
Player25
Men's 55
51 posts
I guess the situation comes down to the definition of "lively" combo. To me the 38 oz bats and blue dot balls were "lively". So were the cu31 and c405 bats with 47/525 balls. Not saying the senior bats should go. Also not saying the 52/265 is the answer. But there should be a way to obtain the "liveliness" of the old combos. In my experience, I am probably a poorer hitter today but with a higher batting average. How is that possible? Very simple. 1. Reaction time and mobility of the fielders
has slowed with age. 2. The ball can be hit closer to the fielder without being caught due to the speed of the current combo. 3. Mis-hit balls can end up over the fence. Not advocating dumbing down the game just putting it back where we began playing.
Dec. 22, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4355 posts
Einstein,
One of the rules or no-no's for the board is; Advertising for commercial products, services or web sites.
I sure would want to suggest what was going on got by unnoticed or that it was a commercial product.
Maybe an exception....
Just like the thread that got trashed.
Balls we currently use are fine, but you can bet there is a deal for the future. Just like the regions and zipper zone poll we are all waiting results of.
Happy Holidays
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