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Discussion: Ratings

Posted Discussion
Dec. 11, 2012
Capt Kirk
405 posts
Ratings
Should the SSUSA Rating Committee determine what a team rating is based on their won/lost record, runs allowed, runs differential,& roster? Thus eliminating the appeal process, since SSUSA has all of the team stats for tournament(s) played. Ratings would be done after the World Championship Tournament.
Capt
Dec. 11, 2012
southernson
257 posts
Capt Kirk,
I think you are on to something but it may be simpler than that...

Runs Scored
AA - Average <15 runs
AAA- Average 15-22 runs
Major - Average 22-28 runs
Major Plus - Average 28+ runs

Anyone unhappy about competing against a team that has the same range of Average Number Runs scored?



Dec. 12, 2012
dMON
21 posts
Simpler yet....let teams rate themselves.

With the new HR limits, teams should be able to find their own classification in which to compete.

If teams loaded up to play AAA, they might quickly find out that they can't keep it in the park and choose to move to Major. Or vice versa.

Most teams build their roster to suit a specific classification.

I don't know that runs scored, per se, would determine a teams ratings.

The HR limits that have been put in place should level the playing field.
Dec. 12, 2012
southernson
257 posts
dMON,

IMO 25 runs scored with 8 home runs is the same as 25 runs scored with 3 home runs.

If my team is also averaging 25 runs per game, then we should be competitive no matter how many home runs.

If we are averaging 15 runs per game, then if we play our average game, and the team averaging 25 runs per game plays there average game, then we should lose the majority of those constest.

Trying to use the HR limits is what has us in trouble with measurement of ratings. It's really the average # runs scored that's important.
Dec. 12, 2012
southernson
257 posts
forgive the typos

Dec. 12, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
ok team a scores ,lets say 20 runs a game avg,with only 1 maybe 2 hrs..most likely there are errors by the defense in that mix also,with a bunch of running and expending effort on the base paths....now team b scores that same amount of runs with 10 hrs,no defense involved,less effort running the bases,so tell me who is fresher after 5 games,your gonna tell me this is the same..........
Dec. 12, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
Good one Bob.
End result is if a team can't score at least 3 runs in an inning per game they won't be competitive over all in any division.
Post by southernson is way off base run wise. imo
Dec. 12, 2012
southernson
257 posts
Taits,
Maybe I am off base run wise, so take a shot. I just thru something out there....

But HRs is not the measurement for equity, avg scored runs per game is closer to equity...

MD,
Yep, you are right, one team may expend more effort for 20 runs than another in that scenario.... But it's the same when you go by the numbers....a team that averages 20 runs per game is obviously doing that consistently, no matter how they get them. So two teams averaging 20 runs per game should be close to equal in run production...at least for a given game

MD....
So I'm off run wise??? Give me your breakdown with a number per division...open to opinions...
Dec. 12, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
My 'shot' would be; what ever rule any assn makes about what ever, either live with it or play somewhere else.
For competitiveness, If you get the avg # of runs I mention above, it would be 21 for a 7 inning game. But most are 6 innings I think.
Sure there are many games with more than that as well as less than half that.
I 'think' SSUSA just keeps the hr's allowed low for AA in order to get teams to move up if they happen to have a few or more than can put them out.
Personally, I do not like limits, would prefer walks after limit rather than DBO. But I go with the flow.
As mentioned somewhere; If a team is making excessive Hr's or winning, like I know some are, but not being moved, why not? Excuses used most of the time is not enough teams in bracket or wrong events were won & not considered. We all know exceptions are made for many issues.
I was told years back; if your that good, why can't you place hit and keep them in the park... My answer was something like I never have been a good place hitter, I just get up there and hit it hard. I envy those that can. Now I look forward to getting on...lol.
Happy Holidays.

Dec. 12, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1184 posts
TYPICAL FACTORS CONSIDERED IN RATING DECISIONS PROCESS (in alphabetical, non-priority order)

GOAL - Have every team in the proper rating division for the Eastern/Western Nationals and World Masters Championships

Average run differentials (+/-) over time
Average runs scored / consistency of same
Champions in National/World tournaments of ISA/ISSA/SPA/SSUSA
Depth of 'HR power' on roster
Frequency of HR's in excess of limit for current division
Identifying teams that forfeit vs. higher rated opponent for rating motive
Impact of a blowout win/loss on run differential calculations
National Rating Advisory Board member observations/recommendations
Roster composition (number and team history of out of rating players)
Tournaments won & performance in larger tournaments
Tournament/Field Director observations/recommendations
Won/Loss records in bracket play as opposed to pool play (sandbagging pool play)
Won/Loss records over time inside and outside of current division

Dec. 12, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
Food to choke on or for thought, lol. Some of the not so typical,

Do not keep scorebooks.
Do not watch all games or whole games.
Do have exceptions.

Two events when there are like 17 or so TOC qualifiers and about 75 overall.

Who decides about the sandbagging, which we know goes on, when you do not watch all the games let alone the whole game for that decision?

Do have a good a better 'player' on xxx team rating system in place or it was for a while this year.

Appeals process in which the team better have their case on paper in order or you loose.

Just many teams in past and currently, not moving up or down for that matter with results posted after events...


But best out there.
Dec. 12, 2012
Downs
49 posts

MUCH NEEDED CONSIDERATION.

I believe you may all be overlooking one major consideration. That is the number of at bats a team experiences in a game. If the home team wins, then their average number of runs will normally be based on a 7 inning game, and not the 6 innings they may have actually batted. Meanwhile, their opponent will have batted 7 times, and in essence the "averages" will actually be convoluted. It would appear the game was closer than would normally be expected if the two teams had switched the team batting order.

If you are going to utilize a run average, then you may want to consider using a per inning average, not per game average. Thereby dividing the total number of runs by the actual number of team at bats. It could logically be broken down into tenths or hundredths of scored runs per inning. It would still provide a sufficient basis for comparative purposes. Just my opinion....... I've been playing this damn game or organized softball for 68 years and regardless of the rules, I still intend to play.
Every year there are changes that the majority does not agee with, but still compete, and that is why we play. Good luck and Happy Holidays....... Jim D.
Dec. 12, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
732 posts
Downs is right, but I am not sure how to implement. For the most part, the teams I play on take visitors in the seeding games. If we are doing well this will add at bats and usually results in more runs overall. We do this to get more at bats, because we are batting the roster.

For example:
#1 15-15 through 6.
Open inning
V scores 15
H scores 5
final V30 - H20

#2 15-15 through 6.
Open innings
V scores 5
H scores 6
final V20 - H21

#3 V10 - H20 through 6
Open inning
V scores 9
H does not bat
final V19 - H20

Complicated at best....I believe the SSUSA Staff does the best they can trying to rate teams. Using Mang's example of a bell curve, It is easy to rate the teams in the middle of the curve. It is more difficult to determine where the teams which are located at each end of the spectrum will fair in either the division above or below.
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Dec. 12, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
732 posts
I tried to draw a bell curve that did not work out very well.

http://search.aol.com/aol/image?q=bell+curve&v_t=comsearch50ct13&s_it=searchtabs

Dec. 12, 2012
grumpy55
Men's 60
102 posts
Staff,
Just wondering when the new team ratings will be posted.
Dec. 13, 2012
southernson
257 posts
Mad Dog,

I think in your example the team that hit the fewest home runs is fresher. Look at your example....

-------
ok team a scores ,lets say 20 runs a game avg,with only 1 maybe 2 hrs..most likely there are errors by the defense in that mix also,with a bunch of running and expending effort on the base paths....now team b scores that same amount of runs with 10 hrs,no defense involved,less effort running the bases,so tell me who is fresher after 5 games,your gonna tell me this is the same..........
--------

Effort is mostly expended on defense....soooo, if I'm playing a team that hit 10 HR's, for half of their runs I had to play zero defense, I just turned my head...and only played defense for 10 of their runs, or even less.

But if I am playing defense, and they only hit 1 or 2 out, only got to turn my head one or two times. The other 18 or 19 runs I had to run, throw, run, throw......a lot of effort on defense.

Just a different slant....with the same example.

Dec. 13, 2012
Capt Kirk
405 posts
There are many factors that go into rating a team, I believe that we have two (2) benchmark tournaments, Reno & the World Championships. I have played in both the 60's and 65's AAA bracket and usually there are twenty plus teams that are entered in these brackets and at the World Championship for the 60's AAA there were thirty eight (38) teams, these tournaments provide a realization if your team is in the upper, middle, or lower tier in your classification. These tournaments should be weighted differently in the overall scheme of tournaments when it comes to a team rating.
Capt
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