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Discussion: Seeding Games

Posted Discussion
April 23, 2013
Allan55
79 posts
Seeding Games
I would like feedback on what players feel is a good number of seeding games and how our situation could be improved. The reason for this post is the situation the 55m+ teams face in Vegas this weekend. The 55m+ teams will play 4 seeding games before the tournament starts. I have played up to three seeding games before, so this is a first for me. I know we have to play the 50m+ teams to ensure them 5 games. However, I don't understand why we must play all of the 55m+ teams. We could simply play 2 out of the 3. As it stands now, we will play 2 games on Friday and possibly 4 games on Saturday (8, 9:30, one game off, and potentially 12:30, and 2:00; the tournament starts at 12:30). Yes, that is correct...4 out of 5 game times. I am more worried about our players and injuries with the number of seeding games...before the tournament starts.
April 23, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
791 posts
Play a round robin format with ALL the games counting!
April 23, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
Allan,
As for playing all the teams in your bracket, one could say you were fortunate to be able to do that. That said it really depends on number if teams in it as well as what's below.
Look at some brackets and think how many teams end up playing some of the same teams they do everywhere they go.
If your fortunate enough to get into one with a large number of teams for a change, it would be great to play teams from the other side of the nation as it were.
Only happens on occasion.

Jawood,
It if weren't for the many mixed brackets I'd agree on that.
April 23, 2013
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
392 posts
I prefer 4-games for the seeding round with a double KO. We usually have a roster of about 16-players and travel a long way to get to most tournaments and more RR before the elimination round helps get all the players a decent number of games in.
April 23, 2013
local
124 posts
My 2 cents.

Eliminate the double loser bracket and make it 3 game seeding. With 3 game seeding you take some of the guess work out of the bracket play. i.e there would not be as many 3-0 teams as there are 2-0 teams. The losers bracket is way too big !!!!

Give points ( minus runs against) to teams that have placed in other SSUSA tournaments. For example If you win Westerns or Eastern Nationals the team would receive points in the form of runs against for seeding at Worlds.

Taits, Aro played Enviro-Vac in almost every local and National tournament we went to last year. Good Guys but tough to beat. I believe at Worlds there were 38 teams. It was much more "fun" to play teams from the South, Midwest and East.
April 23, 2013
FOFO
Men's 50
170 posts
Three seeding games and double elimination, but if they offer more I would take it. It's tough to travel someplace to play in a tournament and play 1 or 2 times in a day.
April 23, 2013
kbl
Men's 60
528 posts
GUYS...i like 3 play-in games also with D/E...i was in a tournament last week in Dover, De. not many teams so it was 2 day tourney....we had to play 7 games and won it...65s....I would much rather play in a 3 day tournament....thanks, Ken
April 23, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1184 posts
Seems like it's time to recycle this one again, for at least the fourth time - REPRINT OF MESSAGE BOARD POST FROM 2006, 2011 and 2012 ON TOPIC:

There are three principal reasons SSUSA adopted (in 2006) the two Round Robin into Three-Game-Guarantee Bracket (2RR/3GG) format for brackets of five or more teams –

1. A strong majority of teams believe that the ‘real’ tournament begins only when the elimination bracket begins, regardless of its structure. The 2RR/3GG format gets teams into the brackets earlier and keeps them there longer, meeting that majority belief while still complying with the five game guarantee offered in SSUSA events.

2. The 2RR/3GG format requires less total games than the former 3RR/DE structure. With the growth in the number of teams being at a faster rate than the availability of new playing facilities, ‘every game counts’ in scheduling.

3. In any division with an odd number of teams playing a three-game seeding, one of those teams must play an “exhibition” game that doesn’t count in the standings, but constitutes that team’s fourth game prior to the bracket. Almost all teams that draw that extra game believe it is unfair. There are no “exhibition” games in the 2RR/3GG format.

Remember that the 2RR/3GG format is not a triple-elimination bracket. This format simply does what its title indicates: It guarantees each team three games in the bracket, regardless of the outcome of their first two games. This guarantee is accomplished by feeding any potential loser of their first two games back into the Elimination Bracket, where they remain alive and eligible to win the Championship. Therefore, the timing of when games are won or lost, and their practical effect, is important.

As is the case with any bracket type, the easiest path to the Championship is remaining ‘above the line’ in the Winner's Bracket, and in the 2RR/3GG format, after you have played two games in the Bracket, it’s an excellent idea to keep winning! Quirks can, and do, arise in any format, but this 2RR/3GG has been both efficient and almost universally well received since its introduction at the Cal Cup in 2006. The 3GG format is also the industry norm for the ASA, NSA, USSSA and almost all other significant softball associations.


April 23, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
791 posts
Taits, you are correct. I was thinking of the RR format when each division has about 5-6 teams in it and the same age group. Kind of like NCSSA does, but then after RR play, the #2 team plays the #1 team for the championship. The #2 has to beat the #1 team twice.
April 23, 2013
Tim Millette
481 posts
Ssusa staff....if your going to address current issues that need to be addressed.....

How about scrolling down a whole one thread and answering how a team that came in third at the 55 plus world gets reclassed down to major?

Maybe while your at it you can let us know how a team (ours) that came in third at 50 major worlds gets bumped?

Kinda sems strange...one team wins huge tourneys and gets reclassed down after coming in third and another team that has never won anything gets moved up after coming in third...

My guess is.....ssusa will not answer these two questions because they know it makes no sense at all.
April 24, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1184 posts
The message above was a 30-second cut and paste, Tim. The other thread has also been addressed.
April 24, 2013
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
Staff,
You keep referring to "A strong majority of teams believe that the ‘real’ tournament begins only when the elimination bracket begins, regardless of its structure. The 2RR/3GG format gets teams into the brackets earlier and keeps them there longer, meeting that majority belief while still complying with the five game guarantee offered in SSUSA events." This poll by your own admission was taken in 2006 by teams or individuals who may not even be around anymore.
How about getting some current information by current teams and players on tournament format desires with a new poll?

Do you really believe that the 3GG isn't triple elimination? If you aren't officially eliminated from the tournament until you lose three games, it's triple elimination. Simply can't be called any other thing. Yes you are gauranteed three games, but it's still triple elimination.

Yes Tim, You are correct. Decisions are made and supported using rules and guidelines that are vague in nature that allow for stretching them to support the decisions.
April 24, 2013
DaveDowell
Men's 60
1043 posts
AI33 - You have a fundamental lack of understanding of the definitions of a triple elimination bracket as opposed to a 3GG bracket. A triple elimination bracket requires a team to lose three times before elimination. A team that goes 1-2 in their first three games in a 3GG bracket is eliminated.
April 24, 2013
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
dang ya beat me to it......like dave says,its not triple elim,only 3 games are guaranteed,not 3 losses....
April 24, 2013
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
Thank you Dave for the clarification. However if a team goes 0-2 in its first two games, then it becomes triple elimination, which in effect is still a 3GG.
April 24, 2013
Omar Khayyam
989 posts
Yes, a team that goes 0-2 is still in play. That's the good thing about a 3GG bracket. You drive hundreds of miles, spend a thousand dollars, and you're still playing 5 games, often on the third day. Also, a team that goes 2-2, or 3-2, or 4-2 is also eliminated without three losses (been there, done that).
April 24, 2013
DaveDowell
Men's 60
1043 posts
No problem ... As I mention at every Manager Meeting during the schedule review session: "...If you have played two games in a 3GG bracket, and have had the misfortune to have lost one of them, now would be an excellent time to start winning ball games!..." ... Good luck everyone ...
April 24, 2013
BobLaser
Men's 50
38 posts
I agree with Enviro Vac for the same reasons. More pool games means everybody gets to play before we trim down our lineup for the elimination games.
April 24, 2013
garyheifner
354 posts
Hate the 4 prelim games. It simply tires out the players and increases the chance of injury before the real tourney begins. The prelims are only used in ring tournies and I want to have everyone healthy. Much prefer 2 prelims and then get on with it.
April 25, 2013
Wayne 37
198 posts
In my opinion, I'd rather play late into the night than get up the next morning to play an 8:00 or 9:30 AM game.
April 25, 2013
udaplaya
91 posts
My preference (which isn't even worth two cents):

no ratings (the whole AA, AAA, Major, Major+ designations is ludicrous),

the 5 year age bands are a good enough delineator for the level of play, so one bracket for 50s, another bracket for 55s, another bracket for 60s, etc. You know, s owe could get back to those awesome 30 and 40 team tournaments

no seeding, double elimination

worlds would be the only three-day tourney

i know this doesn't cater to the little league mentality that has creeped into senior softball (if we create enough sub-divisions, eventually everyone will be a winner)

i liked the old days where you had to show up prepared and ready to play from the first game, not wanting to go 2 and Q, of going 5 - 2 and only placing 7th but getting to play different teams from all over the country.

Clearly, what SSUSA has done is extremely popular and my comments above wont resonant with many, but i sure there are a few of you out there who miss the good ol' days of rock 'em sock 'em.





April 25, 2013
udaplaya
91 posts
another thing...

bring back night games, especially in lieu of those 8 am games, at least for the 50 and 55 (a lot of you already play under the lights in local leagues, yet it is almost a taboo idea in senior softball).

the cost of putting on big tourneys would go down considerably, which would hopefully translate into reduced entry fees (i know, what a dreamer)


April 25, 2013
curveball
Men's 65
400 posts
uda, night games become a problem in lots of cities because of the leagues that have the parks scheduled during those evening hours. Sometimes our schedules "have" to be worked around those various Parks and Recreation Depts.
April 25, 2013
garyheifner
354 posts
udaplaya

When you lump your ideas together, they would kill senior softball. A good chunk of us are retired on pensions. No chance that most will spend $$$ to play in "2" and out format. Teams would load up with the best in their region and your 30-40 team fields would be just a handfull.

Maybe you could talk USSSA into trying this format.
April 27, 2013
Capt Kirk
405 posts
Are seeding games part of the formula for rating a team?
Capt
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