http://www.seniorsoftballstore.com

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 0 members ; 19 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: SEATTLE ALTERED MIKEN BAT.

Posted Discussion
Oct. 8, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
SEATTLE ALTERED MIKEN BAT.
I was lucky to speak this wkend w/ a SSWC rep. Jim S. Jim, informed me that once a wk RB, Ridge, & Bill, once a wk speak about the past & present on going SSWC events. During the past 2 wks, LVSSA, has been runn' their World Event. These 3 men have a lot to deal w/ this wk, because of all the crap, yes, crap that teams & players tried to pull of this past 2 wks, in Las Vegas.
The Miken used inSeattle, did not balance properly. When further inspected, the 1 to 2 1/2 oz pin was removed from the knob-handle. This bat had been end-loaded by the player in question. This player admitted to using this bat 4 about 2 yrs. & had altered the bat on his own. This same player tried to play in the 50's for a team out of Mich.
The SSWC rep. & our LVSSA Tournament director did not allow this player to play. This player in question, has been banned from SSWC WORLDS 4 two yrs.
Hopefully, I got all the answers right. Again, all that I have stated was from an employed of SSWC.

The STONEMAN....................OUT
Oct. 8, 2006
Joncon
289 posts
""the 1 to 2 1/2 oz pin was removed from the knob-handle. This bat had been end-loaded by the player in question. ""


Yeah....THAT'S gonna do a lot for performance.

Two freking OUNCES? Who cares?

Do you have any I dea how LITTLE two ownces is?


My motto is "Shut up and play ball".
Oct. 8, 2006
Joncon
289 posts
My other motto is "proofread cause you can't edit here"
Oct. 9, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
JONCON: When composite bats were found to exceed the 1.20 BPF, THE BAT MANUF.', solved this 'problem' by adding the 1 to 2 1/2 oz to the handle. MIKEN, has maintained that the only bats that exceeded the 1.20 BPF, were their end loaded ULTRA's.
I know of a player buying a bat, the MIKEN 585. This bat was as hot or hotter than the ULTRA. 'My friend', was about to use this 585, in a World Event last yr. (The ULTRA's were allowed.) Lucky 4 him, the day before he was to leave, this bat broke. @ this time we took a 6 oz magnite to the handle. NOTHING!! Then we took the decal of of the handle & stuck a 12 guage wire in the handle. This wire went down to the end cap. There was no pin in this bats handle. I.E.::: This MIKEN 585 had been altered. An illegal bat.
This is why, MIKEN, bats have the 1 to 2 1/2 oz pins in their Handle. Sounds a lil' stupid, but, this is so.
The STONEMAN...............OUT
Oct. 9, 2006
ReadyToGo
14 posts

YOUR THE MAN JONCON!!!!!!!!...... TELL IT LIKE IT IS!!!!!!!.....
Oct. 9, 2006
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
I agree with Joncon that adding 2 oz to the knob has no effect on the performance of the bat. I beleive it was a Louisville rep who stated after the bat recertifiication a few years ago that Miken and Worth took an advantage of a loop hole in the ASA ruling but adding1-2 oz to the knobs of thier bats instead of rebalanceing the whole bat.

When I had my PST done I didn't notice any difference in performance after recertification than before except for the fact the bat weighed 2 oz heavier.
Oct. 9, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1262 posts
Guys, adding or subtacting 1 to 2 ounces makes a HUGE difference in bat speed and performance.
Oct. 9, 2006
DoubleL10
Men's 65
811 posts
I have to agree with Dbax on this - if adding two ounces to the end load of a bat doesn't improve performance then why did the manufacturers take the bats that did not meet the 1.2 BPF and add weight to the handle?

I know, for me, the new Combat end loaded version has more punch through the zone than my Ultra2. I'm getting to like it more than the U2.

LL
Oct. 9, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
JONCON & READY to GO: The 1 to 2 1/2 oz, pin was taken out. THIS PIN WAS NEVER REPLACED! Then, this player added a few ozs of glue or expoxy into the end. By removing the knobs pin, one can pour expoxy or Gorilla Glue into the bats barrel. This will change the M.O.I. & the SWING WEIGHT. This also, effects bat speed.
I should not bring this point up. But, test have been done inwhich 5 to 8 ozs were added to the bats handle area. This increases the M.O.I. & will greatly increase a bats SWING WEIGHT.
I.E. A ball will travel further.

GOOD LUCK.. The STONEMAN.......
Oct. 9, 2006
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Do you mean to say that adding 2oz to the end of a U2 will make it swing like a legal Combat , Miken NRG or Jeff Hall Mayhem?
Oct. 9, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
I believe that adding weight to a UII at the end will make it perform like the original Ultra Maxload. Thin walls end load eqaul long HR's.
Oct. 9, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
FRED SCERRA; My friend & former teammate Dr. Larry Noble, from Kansas State University, ownes the U. S. Patient on adding weight in the handle. ( This is thru the N.C.A.A.) Doc, has worked yrs w/ Easton sports. One can go on line & look up all the 'Research Work', that Larry, has gotten from Easton.
Doc, had worked on safety equipment & bats. In the mid 80's & up until 1990, I believe Easton had bats on the market that were KNOB loaded. ((I had an EASTON bat that was goldish & made the weight in the KNOB. I brought this bat in 1988.)) Easton was try' to insure that the sweet spot was on a bat @ or in the proper "area". During the 70's & 80's, bats were tested & many bats had the sweet spot off the bat or just about were the taper ended. EASTON, reason' was; to make a bat that weighed 34 to 38 ozs, but, swung lighter, (because, 4 ozs or so were in the KNOB). Another reason, was to in sure that the SWEET SPOT of the bat was 3 to 4 inches from the end of the bat.
Doc Noble, has also, worked closely w/ Dr. Alan Nathan (University of Illinois).
Dr. Larry Noble, is a professor in kinesiology at Kansas State University specializing in exercise and sport biomechanics. He has played softball at a high level of competition (USSSA Class A) and coached little league baseball for several years. As a scientist, he has had consulting and research contracts with the three leading softball and baseball manufacturers over the past 20 years. He holds one patent (U.S. and several other countries) and has published and presented more than 50 scientific papers related to baseball and softball bats.

If, u want more bat infro, try:: A) Dr. Alan Nathan (University of Illinois). B) GMI.EDU/~DRUSSELL/BATS
FRED:: Easton is the 1st bat maker to add weight in the KNOB. MIKEN & WORTH, took a page from Doc Noble.
Oct. 9, 2006
Joncon
289 posts
Stone. I think you are confusing your "facts".

THe MFG's sent "balanced" versions for testing and approval. When the ULTRA came along and caused all the ruckus (they sure did huh?) EVERYTHING was re examined. Worth had to "re certify" their end loaded bats to come into compliance.


This was strictly a legal issue and had little to no impact on bat performance. People had to send back their ESTL's for crying out loud. It had ZERO to do with the 1.2 factor.

The Miken bats are all the same basic weight (about 26oz if I remember correctly) . They add the additional weight in the handle. I believe that a 26 oz Miken would have no weights in the handle so just because you didn't "find" it with your refrigerator magnet doesn't mean squat.

Dbax. Lets get together and do some field testing. I don't believe that a couple ounces can make any substantial difference in bat speed and even less in batted ball speed.

We can have "Ready to go" pitch to us :)
Oct. 9, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
JONCON: U may be right. But, I state what I have found out. SAFETY ISSUE: Most orgin' never tested bats. If, so, the test results were not made public. Even when MIKEN, WORTH, & EASTON, sent me E-MAILS, telling me that they had no test results & that I could ask 4 details. I was given the run around by USSSA & NSA. I finally got the name of the testing labs & thes jerks would not give out the info or time of day. I sent several labs names, numbers, & e-mails. I got nothing back but, "we r an independt test' lab & can not give out such information. Ask the bat markers or .... for the test results."
FROM Hugh, of NSA.. WE DO NOT TEST BATS. NSA & USSSA, have a licensing 'contract.' The bat MFG's sent their bats to the test' labs. The testing labs test each bat & then the test results is sent in w/ the contract. So on & so on.
JONCON: 1) U r being rude when u say my refrigerator magnet. I used a 6 to 8 oz industrial magnet, used in pick' up metal. That's O.K. 2) If, one takes off the factory grip, most MIKEN have the weight in red on the handle. I have sent numbers as low as 23.4 & up to 26. 3) From MIKEN & the WESTERN STATES DIRECTOR for ISA, all MIKEN bats must have the 1 to 2 1/2 oz pins in to be a legal bat. Lance, has had to throw several bats & players out of his TournAmants. In one case, th pin have fallen down into the barrel. This bat was removed & the bats owner was allowed to keep on playing. 4) WORTH, sued ASA, & ASA, has never forgotten. That is why, so may WORTH bats get banned each yr. in ASA, ONLY. (We must laugh @ some of the bats that ASA has banned over the last 3 yrs.) 5) MIKEN, has admitted that a few of their end loaded bats were above the 1.20 BBF. But, only 1 or 2 per 100 bats made. 6) ASA, IS A JOKE. There is a memo from Frank T., of ASA, in which Frank, wants the game of SOFTBALL to go back to WOODEN BATS. 7) While talk' to the SSWC REP, I, showed Jim, my bats & we tested all 7 MIKENS. My bats balanced in the proper point & my magnet could 'pull' down on the handles.
GOOD LUCK..... What r the real facts? The bat MFG's state one thing, & NSA, ASA, U-TRIP, all state something diff'.

The STONEMAN..................OUT
Oct. 9, 2006
Joncon
289 posts
Dude...I am OLD.

I can't see for SH!T.


Use paragraphs to break your posts into managable portions.


Like this.


All I got was "you might be right".
Oct. 10, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
JONCON:: DUDE---- a mole or wart on a cows butt. I did write in paragraph manner. Sometimes, the Message Board seems, " to do it's own thing."

I have yer E-MAIL. I sent u some copies of e-mails that I have gotten. If, u would like to read some of the crap, that I have collected over the past 5 yrs, I will be glad to send u 20 or so more..

I am glad that u can read. Thanks 4 telling me that my writting seems hard to read. When I write, I will make special effort to leave space, (I.E.), paragraphs.

Again, u might be right. But, I have spent time & money to reseach infro on BALLS & BATS. I have sent many E-MAILS to bat & ball MFG's; to NSA, ASA, & U-TRIP; I have even E-MAILED several testing labs; spent time going on line to read & request infro.

I have been told that I have way to much time on my hands.

The STONEMAN.................................OUT
Oct. 10, 2006
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
STONEMAN:

I think I understand what you are saying. If I understand you right you are talking about bats that were designed with the weight in the knob.

We are talking about bats that were designed without the weight in the knob but added after. IMO the end load of a PST to the right of your hands is the same after adding weight in the knob as before.
Oct. 10, 2006
FreshFish
32 posts
Two thoughts on this matter: By virtue of removing from the handle 1-2.5 ozs, wouldn't the bat thus become "end loaded" or at least as compared to the original weight distribution; And secondly didn't the bat recert process consist of removing weight from the bat head (plug) and adding it to the handle by inserting "Pin weights" ?

I left SB in 2000 and must have missed all this crap...Thanks IAMFISH.
Oct. 10, 2006
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
I believe that is what some companies did. In theory that would leave the bat weight the same.

Worth didn't do that. They just added the weight to the knob leaving the end cap alone which resulted in my 26 oz bat coming back weighing 28 oz but still leaving the heavy end load to the right of your hands.
Oct. 10, 2006
ReadyToGo
14 posts
Whats the difference between a shaved synergy + or shaved synergy 2 and a ultra 2??? Nothing, so whats the problem when the ultra 2 is legal in a senior softball, let these clowns used there shaved bats. Make all bats legal in every senior softball tournament then you will not have a team with shaved bats and the other team whineing about the bats. You guys have to much spare time on your hands to whine about freaking senior softball. Get over it!!!!!!!

JONCON: I'd pitch to but your so damn blind you don't know where the hell you would be hitting the ball. I forgott, you couldn't "BREAK GLASS"!!! I'll pitch to ya, LMAO......
Oct. 10, 2006
ReadyToGo
14 posts
Whats the difference between a shaved synergy + or shaved synergy 2 and a ultra 2??? Nothing, so whats the problem when the ultra 2 is legal in a senior softball, let these clowns used there shaved bats. Make all bats legal in every senior softball tournament then you will not have a team with shaved bats and the other team whineing about the bats. You guys have to much spare time on your hands to whine about freaking senior softball. Get over it!!!!!!!

JONCON: I'd pitch to but your so damn blind you don't know where the hell you would be hitting the ball. I forgott, you couldn't "BREAK GLASS"!!! I'll pitch to ya, LMAO......
Oct. 10, 2006
bullet
Men's 55
130 posts
Do All Mikens have a weight in the handle.If so are they a different weight
Oct. 10, 2006
ReadyToGo
14 posts
Hey JONCON, I'll let you use my shaved broom stick when I pitch to you LOL LOL.
Oct. 10, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
BULLET: It is my understanding that all MIKEN's from the last 2 yrs. or so, do have 1 oz to 2 1/2 oz in the KNOB. This was done to "counter balance bats". This action was taken to in sure that bats stayed @ or below the 1.20 B.P.F.

I have one 484, one 585, 3 U-2s, & one NRG 600 SERIES MAX LOAD. All 6 bats do have a pin in their KNOB. If, one has a strong enough magnet or is will' to 'peal' off the bats bubble on the knob, one can look; or use a weeker magnet. Most 'pins' r less that 1/8 " below the KNOB.

FRED SCERRA: I too sent in my PSTs. I was told by a WORTH REP, that counter weight (a pin, plug, or something) would be added to the KNOB. I was also, informed that weight would be talken out of the end. I am not sure what WORTH did.

I believe that some weight was removed by 'shaving' or using a thiner end cap. I was asked if, "I wanted the same weight or 1 to 2 oz heavier.

Also, most MIKEN's when made r less than 24 oz. 1 oz is gained by installing their grip. The other 1 to 5 ozs r added.
I believe this is done by the thickness of each bats end plug.

READY to GO: 1) If, one shaves a bat, that bat will not last very long. 2) Shaved bats will exceed the 1.20 BPF 3) A ball hit by a shaved bat will have a greater Batted Ball Speed; which means less reaction time 4 pitchers & infielders. 4) There is already way to many shaved bats out there. Several fathers, that sons get paid to play , r using, sell', or giving away some of these very hot bats.

Thanks ....... The STONEMAN.............
Oct. 10, 2006
ReadyToGo
14 posts
STONEMAN: ultra 2's are hotter then the 1.20 rateing, come on be real. A shaved synergy + or 2 or the CNT's are just as hot as a ultra 2. I can hit a shaved bat or an ultra 2 equally well, approx same distance same everything. It just depends on how you hit it!!!! It's like hitting a golf ball w/your driver, some you miss hit, or top it, and some you pi$$ on, and it feels right. Same thing in slow pitch softball. Make all bats legal in all senior tourneys and you can put rest the illegal bat problem.Your never gonna stop people from useing illegal bats, just blend in!!!!!........
Oct. 10, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Stoneman, you're the man.
And you're right on, in this one.
With a proper end load and shaving there's no telling how
hot you can make a bat.
I saw Jeff Hall break 2 bats in 13 swings
at PacBell park and no doubt they were "customized"
for the home run hitting contest.
Those bats, whatever they were, were on fire
and the balls came off them like no balls
I've ever seen hit before.
They never stopped moving.
500 foot line drives.

So Stoney, you're right.
Bat's can be made very dangerous, very easily
and must be taken out of the hands of players.
And also taking unfair advantage makes one,
one's team a punk, a cheater
a void's the opportunity for true competition
and championship
and we, those who wish to stand up and be counted
should have none of it
Bravo, Stoney.
You're a hero.
Oct. 10, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Also, a couple of years ago
there was a bat controversy and one of players on the offending team who intimated to me
off the record that they had/used fixed bats
said the reason was they thought everyone else was
and why should they be the suckers and not use 'em.
Though this kinda makes sense
it's more often a rationalization to pull out the "Big Boy"
when you need 'em.

We need to be strong, together guys.
We can do it.
No illegal lethal bats.
Period.
We have to.
Oct. 10, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Stoneman, you're the man.
And you're right on, in this one.
With a proper end load and shaving there's no telling how
hot you can make a bat.
I saw Jeff Hall break 2 bats in 13 swings
at PacBell park and no doubt they were "customized"
for the home run hitting contest.
Those bats, whatever they were, were on fire
and the balls came off them like no balls
I've ever seen hit before.
They never stopped moving.
500 foot line drives.

So Stoney, you're right.
Bat's can be made very dangerous, very easily
and must be taken out of the hands of players.
And also taking unfair advantage makes one,
one's team a punk, a cheater
a void's the opportunity for true competition
and championship
and we, those who wish to stand up and be counted
should have none of it
Bravo, Stoney.
You're a hero.
Oct. 10, 2006
ReadyToGo
14 posts
Einstien, useing JEFF HALL to prove a point is just ridiculous.That would be the same as putting you on a little field(200') w/ultra 2. You would be a god to!!!!!! He's in a completely different league as us. Came on, jeff hall can break any 2 NON altered bats in 13 swings, the ball my not go as far, but the damage to the bats will be the same. Come onl!!! Useing jeff hall, as compared to us weekend warriors is about as far apart as the earth and moon.Your compareing apples to oranges, get real!!!!!!
Oct. 10, 2006
Gary Heifner
248 posts
On a post back several years ago, the removal of the rod in a U2 makes it very close to the original gray Miken. If you really believe that altering a bat is OK as you seem to have stated above, then YOU are a perfect example of what is wrong in senior softball and cheating and it would be very obvious to me that maybe your bats should be checked at all senior events.
Oct. 10, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
I would venture to guess there is not one person out there that has the knowledge that STONEMAN has when it comes to bats etc. He would be the only person I would allow to discuss my batting stance, recommend a bat etc. Ready to Go you are way off base in saying make all bats legal. That would just make more altered bats available to the general softball population, the last thing softball needs is an additional supply of illegal bats filtering down to the E and D level of softball.
Oct. 10, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Great idea Gary.
But RTG and his gutless friends
won't let us know who they are
so we can hold 'em accountable.
Clowns at best, maybe criminals, too.

I got this Idea from Kevin at Anaconda and it's making more and more sense.
Any time any player is struck by a ball in any tournament
that seemed too fast to react to, as opposed to a bad hop,
then the ball and the bat become confiscated and checked
for legality.
This is the only way to preserve the right of an injured player to hold accountable the league, the bat manufacturer, the player et al
for being injured by equipment that is beyond specification.

What do you say?


Oct. 10, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
READY to GO: I do not want to get into a fight. One of my friends has 2 sons & a friend that r paid to play. SCOTT S., #44, has told me that when they were in Minn., (a few yrs ago, 4 an All Star Game) the follow' happened:: that before the M. L. game: 1) He & others were swing' Ultras that were paint black 2) that the balls being used were 54 to 60 cor balls w/ a 700 comp.

That follow' spring, Scott, gave his dad a ball from that game. I was told not to hit this ball to may times. If, I did I would break my bat. Well, I did hit that ball once & my New Ultra broke. I am told that I miss hit that ball & that ball went about 450'.

Scott, & co. where hitting the upper decks & something like 11 or 12 people went to the EMERG' WARDS, try' to catch these Home Runs. I believe the Ol' Scout, wrote about this contest.

Scott, swings an Easton bat that has been end loaded to 32 oz. Scott, has told us, that almost all of the 'paid' players r swing' spec ial bats & not MFG's bats.

ALSO: On the subject of Jeff Hall. Jeff, is swing' a painted RED Ultra. Jeff, is not swing' his signature bat. I got this from some SENIOR players in Fla & another ELITE paid player.

A few yrs back, went the red Gensis came out, Scott, was break' 3 to 4 bats per game. WHY? From Scott, & a team mate: the balls were special 54 to 60 cor..... Some of my conversation were @ CASHMAN FIELD, in Vegas, after their World Championship.

This was just before Easton MFG their SYNERGY. One team was using the 1st non-decal SYNERGYS. ONE TEAM, PAID $750, to have 1 of these SYNERGYS, REMOVED FROM THE GAME. In left field, the scoreboard is 475'. Balls were fly' over that scoreboard & on to WASHINGTON AVE.

Great bats & or shaved bats & super hot balls. MAN ON FIRE, is compairing apple to apples. What do u think u can do w/ a hot bat & super hot balls?

LECAK:: U r much to kind. The only problem, is that these illegal-altered bat r now filtering down into D & E leagues already.

SUM TING WONG...............................OUT
Oct. 10, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
STONEMAN if you don't think our actions as older softball players doesn't affect the younger set check this post out from the recent E worlds here in Vegas from an umpire. This has it all sandbagging, probably altered bats etc.

"I umpired some of these games and I was shocked at the size of some the players on these teams as well as their talent level.
They hit and fielded their position more like C level players than E players.
I witnessed a team out of Indiana who hit as hard as any team I have ever seen.
In the 1st inning they went middle with the bases loaded and hit the pitcher, for a team out of Chicago, square in the nuts!!!
It was hit so hard that this kid had no time to react and caught him flush!
HE WENT DOWN HARD!!!
Yup, that's E ball in today's game.
SANDBAG CENTRAL!
Oct. 10, 2006
Proudtex40
57 posts
An altered bat is an altered bat. It's illegal regardless of who swings the bat and if you are caught using an altered bat you should suffer the consequences. Just my thoughts though.
Steve Shannon
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
2701 K Street, Suite 101A
Sacramento, CA 95816
Send us e-mail
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts International Softball Tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners