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Online now: 3 members: 9 ball, Schibs, TABLE SETTER 11; 88 anonymousDiscussion: New rule on shaved bats
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| Dec. 20, 2023 just a player Men's 60 14 posts | New rule on shaved bats As a member of the Weakend Warriors team mentioned in Terry Henessey’s article, I looked up the “new” rule. To punish the whole team or the manager for the actions of one player is not fair. As stated in the article it is impossible to tell if a bat has been altered. All of the WW were aware of the rule and we had no idea nor suspicion that a player was using a shaved bat. As it stands, our manager was suspended for 4 months based on his appeal. Even after the rules committee ruled that the manager should not be singled out, he still was. Perhaps a better, more persuasive rule, would be to ban the offending player who knowingly cheated and selfishly endangered opposing players, be banned for life with no appeal. If he was using a “borrowed “ bat, the proper owner should also be banned for life. The illegal action was totally controlled the offending player period. |
| Dec. 21, 2023 woodies1023 48 posts | As the Team Manager I have to agree 100% that the manager should NOT BE SUSPENDED for a violation that we was unaware of. A warning to address this issue asap with the remaining players on the roster would be sufficient. If it comes to light that the manager did know about the shaved bat, then he should indeed face and receive the same if not longer suspension for knowing and allowing. The person from whom the bat was BORROWED from should also get the same suspension. The seniors players don't need any advantage when it comes to SENIOR BATS and most teams and players can tell when something is wrong when the team your playing has several guys swinging the same stick in the same game. |
| Dec. 21, 2023 TimMcElroy 942 posts | I feel differently. IMO- the manager should be thankful that his suspension was reduced from 12 months to 4 months (during the off-season, no less). He, and the WW team should take that reduction and quietly sit this conversation out. We've all had life changes, lost a step, or have aged out of the young man's game for some reason. Senior softball is a gift because it allows us to continue our careers, to continue building relationships, and not hobble off into retirement. If you care about this game you've got an obligation to leave it better than you found it. Too many of us have looked the other way on shaved, rolled, or "self-repaired" bats. Wherever you live, you have an idea who is swinging altered equipment. The old rule (which included a manager penalty) was intended to encourage managers to stand up and say- "Not in my dugot" and it didn't work. The new rule (which includes a team penalty) encourages accountability for everyone in the dugout. Are you willing to bring on a guy with that reputation? Are you willing to bring on a guy that can ruin your reputation? Are you willing to bring on a guy that can ruin your sponsor's reputation or his desire to keep providing sponsorship? Are you willing to to bring on a guy that can end your team's season? Finally- If you are "that guy" Does a few pts on your batting average, or a few extra feet of distance mean so much to you that you're willing to embarrass 15 teammates, your coach and your sponsor? |
| Dec. 21, 2023 Rob64 Men's 50 209 posts | As a manager/player myself I'm not responsible for someone else using an illegal bat but I won't allow it and if I know will say goodbye to those that do! Teach me and tell me the means of checking an illegal bat as a manager/player. What a manager can control and should be punished for are illegal players taking the field that within the means of my control! Fire the Directors for not checking the bats! Fire the umpire that knew it didn't sound right etc...Not The Person Responsible! Big bat companies for years offering rolled or shaved for $29.99 What a joke! Finally 2024 someone is peeking through their eyelids! |
| Dec. 21, 2023 BANDITOS180 Men's 55 44 posts | As a manager, I agree, what steps/actions can we take to verify an illegal bat for a player on our roster? I see that not only the manager (4 month suspension) bu the team as well, how long was the team suspension? I truly am glad that SSUSA is looking into this and hope they find a way to check bats at the major tournaments and mark them to be used. I play lots of USSSA and they test bats at the major tourneys and keep them secured during the tournament. |
| Dec. 21, 2023 BANDITOS180 Men's 55 44 posts | I see the new rule and shows a 10 year suspension for the player now and not for the coach, but the team is suspended. How long is the team suspension? In either case, managers no longer face suspension. Instead, the committee approved declaring the team ineligible for the Tournament of Champions and the World Championships. The team will forfeit all TOC berths it has earned. |
| Dec. 21, 2023 SSUSA Staff 3491 posts | BANDITOS180 • There is nothing in the rule amendment that suspends the team for the player having been found to have used an altered bat. There IS a TEAM SANCTION, but it is NOT a suspension. The team is barred from participating in that season's World Championships in Las Vegas and from the next Tournament of Champions, whether or not they had previously earned a bid, because all current year T.O.C. bids are forfeited. The team may play in as many other events as they desire, including upcoming T.O.C. events, other qualifiers, and the Eastern or Western National Championships. Here is the newly added TEAM SANCTIONS language, in its entirety: __________ TEAM SANCTIONS: If the player refuses to surrender the bat, or if the bat is found to be altered to enhance performance, the team will forfeit all previously earned current season Tournament of Champions bids and is declared ineligible to participate in the current season SSUSA World Championships and Tournament of Champions. |
| Dec. 21, 2023 mck71 Men's 60 344 posts | So what happens IF a bat is found altered AT either the TOC or the WC? Ex. bat was altered in Phoenix so that team would not be able to play in 2025 TOC, correct? B U T... ...if testing at TOC next month and bat found to be altered, team can't play in 2024 WC? and if found in 2024 WC then team can't play is 2025 TOC but can play in 2025 WC? Finally, are the players then frozen to that roster and not allowed to move to another team? Apologies, just want to get clarity for myself as well as those reading because I believe there are a few gray area's based on the wording as stated above. Happy Holidays! :-) |
| Dec. 21, 2023 SD00 4 posts | So, what happens to the players on the team that is no longer allowed to participate? If this is the only team they are rostered on. Can they be picked up by another team? If so does it count against them as their one roster move for that year? |
| Dec. 21, 2023 SSUSA Staff 3491 posts | mck71 • In our view, there's nothing vague in the intent of the National Rules Committee or in the amended language. If an altered bat is discovered at ANY SSUSA sanctioned event, or if a player declines to surrender his bat for inspection, the player suspension (10-years or LIFE, depending on his level of cooperation) commences immediately. The team sanction component will result in them not being eligible to participate in the next World Championships OR the next T.O.C. Nobody is able to retroactively determine with certainty if the altered bat was or was not in play during events that would have qualified them for the World Championships or the T.O.C. Barring the team from those events eliminates any possible detriment to the other teams competing. __________ SD00 • The new TEAM SANCTION rules will take effect on January 1st and were NOT in place at the time of the incident that is the primary topic of this discussion. For future hypothetical reference, if the same circumstances and result were to occur, that future team (and all players on that tournament roster) would be barred from participating in the next World Championships and T.O.C. The team would NOT be suspended, so all other player movement options would be available to those players for any other event the team may choose to enter, EXCEPT none of those players would be allowed to join another team, in any age group, and then play in the barred World's and T.O.C. events. |
| Dec. 21, 2023 Gpatoot Men's 50 3 posts | Any discussion about random bat testing? Maybe after testing applying a sticker that is specific to the tournament? Grown, MATURE men playing a kids game shouldn't be cheating, knowingly or not...IMO |
| Dec. 21, 2023 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | Per latest newsletter: SSUSA is working on additional deterrents, including bat testing to be done at ballparks. Page 12 |
| Dec. 21, 2023 mck71 Men's 60 344 posts | Got it. Thanks as always, happy holidays! |
| Dec. 21, 2023 JohnO28 Men's 50 107 posts | I'm all in favor of getting illegal bats out of the game as much as the next guy. You guys keep asking about testing at the fields. What testing do you expect them to be doing? The only bat standards besides size and weights that are in effect is the 1.21 BPF maximum standards. There is no minimum failing number on a tester for Senior bats. Senior bats weren't desinged of built with a minimum test number in mind and are legal until they break. You all want SSUSA to all of the sudden come up with a minumum tester number for bats to fail but that's not how they are built. I think many of you will be shocked that youre extremely hot Senior bats that are all webbed up can test lower on a compression tester than a shaved bats. What is everyone going to start doing when their completely stock Senior bats are now failing compression testing and can no longer be used and to make things worse Senior bats have no warranty like other assocation bats do where some can exchange them for new bats with a warranty. What are all the Red knob users going to do with their $500 bats then? You can't start punishing people who aren't cheating and who's bats are stock and conforming to the rules that were set in place when they were designed and built and then purchased. Unless SSUSA, NSA, SPA, ISSA, ISA, One Nation and any other assocations I'm missing all do this across the board teams will just go play where they don't test. I can probably guarantee that if they start testing and set the number low enough to catch cheaters then I'd say at least 1/3-1/2 of players stock broken in bats will fail. |
| Dec. 21, 2023 titanhd Men's 60 639 posts | Player asked to leave a team because he swings altered (shaved) bats. Always Has. Player moved to and now plays on your team and still swings "skinny". You pat him on the back and high five each time he hits it 400 cause you need the runs.POSTER. You may not want to NARC and you may not be responsible for what he swings but,Don't post what you won't allow and the consequences if you find out when You Have to KNOW! Can't be missed. C'MON MAN!!! |
| Dec. 22, 2023 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | SSUSA went too far in penalizing teammates associated with cheater. Cheaters should be held accountable, but guilt by association is a knee jerk reaction. If I suspect one of my teammates is swinging an illegal bat I should at least let them know their performance is not indicative or consistent with their peers. You assume, without proof, that a player knew or should have known someone was cheating. Not a reasonable stance. This method of punishment is a result of inability to police the offense on the front end. I guarantee that 90% of softball players would not know a shaved bat if they saw it, heard it, hit it. I can even get behind litigating the crap against a proven cheater. To not allow a player to go to another team when he was not guilty of anything other than being a teammate is WRONG in every normal measurement. You are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Take a beat and revisit this much needed enforcement for a serious violation of the rules and ethical standards. Mike Adair NSSHOF 2014 |
| Dec. 22, 2023 JohnO28 Men's 50 107 posts | Softball4b, I would tend to say your assumption of 90% of guys not knowing a shaved bat if they saw it perform, heard it or hit it is vastly over estimated by at least 50%. You really think that a team full of guys who play with someone for an entire season don't know who swings shaved and who doesnt? There are generally tell tale signs. First, at some point everyone on teams have hit BP with their team. When a guy is hitting 400' consistently in games with his "Gamer" and hes taking BP before games with a different bat and he's barely hitting 300' with any other bat it becomes obvious. Secondly, the most common shaved bats are the big hyped bats we all know. Nobody is going to shave a Combat Centurian because it would be to obvious that a very common lower tier bat is hitting like that and most people have never seen one. So they shave the good bats everyone know so it's not as obvious. But the problem with that is there are a whole lot of them and they all sound pretty similar except the shaved one sounds like a cannon going off. Third, and not quite as common is they are extremely protective of their gamer and nobody at any point as long as they've had it is ever allowed to swing it. Even when it was "brand new", I get it when gamers have swings and they are game ready you don't want to take any more swings than necessary but since day 1 nobody has been allowed to swing it and after every at bat it goes into their bat bag. Anyone who's been around the game long enough and played with and against the same guys long enough starts to figure out who swings clean and who doesn't. It's not a 100% exact science but generally if a guy is doing the first 2 things I said then you can be pretty sure. |
| Dec. 22, 2023 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | John I agree with most everything you said, but you actually made my point. Those unaware should not be held accountable and there is a discernable amount of those players. Suspected is not proof and I refused to convict on suspicion. I don't think we know each other, but those who know me, know I don't accept cheaters in any capacity. Even with that I can't in good conscience convict without proof. I can remove myself from the situation. When you accuse without strong evidence you irreparably damaging your/their relationship. I will clarify and say my division, 70, 90% are unaware because most them did not play higher level ball. I will also say 95% of your division will recognize an enhanced bat. |
| Dec. 22, 2023 JohnO28 Men's 50 107 posts | softball4b, Fair enough. I can't disagree with you on that. |
| Dec. 22, 2023 yankeesfan12 29 posts | My take on not letting people using your bat and I've always been this way since I was 22 to the present. I never let freeloaders on the team use my bat(free loader a guy with no bat only). I pay between 250$ to 400$ for a top of the line bat I'm not about to let a free loader use it each and every time up and every tournament, they need to get there own bat. Ive never used a shaved bat in a game, I've try'd a few in batting practice don't care for them. So if your accusing me of using a shaved bat because I put my bat in my bag after I hit or I put it at the other end of the dugout you better be ready for a defamation of character law suite when the bat tests legal which it will every time. I have to agree with most of what you said johnO28 & softball4b, just not sharing a bat, I work to hard for my money. |
| Dec. 22, 2023 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | JohnO28 • Your posts in this thread are, in my view, totally on point and accurate in all respects ... Thank you ... titanhd • Your post is my personal nominee for the 2023 Truthful Post of the Year award, but you won't win "Mr. Congeniality" softball4b • What you have just advocated is, in essence, the elimination of ALL sanctions except for the individual bat-cheater who randomly gets caught ... No Manager responsibility any more ... No structure where team peer-pressure to deter bat-cheaters would be allowed ... No "nothing" except dumb luck on our part (like a few years back at BLD-LV when a cap popped off a bat and three tennis balls rolled out of the barrel!) ... This is the reason I was somewhat opposed to completely removing the "Manager Sanction" component of the altered bat rules at the Committee meetings ... I firmly believe more people than are willing to admit it "know" who swings the cheater-bats ... And the moment a manager says, true or not so much so, "Gee, I didn't know he swung a dirty bat", he has just dropped the perfect "get-out-of-jail-free" card that can't be challenged while he walks away untouched ... I'm not immediately aware of any other team sport where the manager or coach is completely immune from either responsibility or repercussions for such a serious and dangerous rules violation by one of his players ... Your suggestion is the exact opposite of being proactive to reduce the incidence rate of bat-cheaters ... You are unreasonable in suggesting that the only other option is to "police the problem on the front end" ... Other than expecting all associations to purchase and deploy properly calibrated and indexed (and expensive) bat testers at all complexes at every event, how else would you envision this "front end" process to work effectively? ... |
| Dec. 22, 2023 tg69 393 posts | Ok.First of all let me say that I usually don't respond on this board. Next I totally agree with banning a cheater bat user for however long you come up with but ban teammates for the same time is an asinine idea .Your assuming that every one should know by the sound of bat that people should know it is altered. I have teammates that I don't even know their name much less know their morals ..SSUSA really needs to rethink this piece of work!!!!! |
| Dec. 22, 2023 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | DD this is exactly what this subject needs; open ended proactive discussion to find a reasonable response to an unacceptable situation. Let the {rules committee} keep working at this until a best case response is found. It is a personal issue for me that an innocent individual is not hurt needlessly. I do not think the current rule is as effective as it could be. I agree that cheaters will always be ahead of the curve and my comment regarding proactive was directed toward the manufacturer not the organizations. Orgs will always be playing catch up. I support SSUSA and their efforts to deal with this, but a rifled approach as opposed to a shotgun is needed. |
| Dec. 23, 2023 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | tg69 ... Please re-read the new rule as many times as it takes for you to recognize that NOBODY other than the bat-cheater is suspended (or banned, depending on the cheater's level of cooperation) for ANY period of time ... The cheater's team will simply not be competing in only two upcoming events: the next World Championships and T.O.C., but they may play in as many other SSUSA sanctioned events as they wish ... Those two are qualifying roster events, and the bat-cheater's team can be presumed to have cheated in those qualifiers, too ... Making them ineligible for those events protects the integrity of the World Championships and T.O.C. by ensuring that team does not have an unfair advantage against all other participants ... That's a pretty light sanction for such a serious offense by a team member ... |
| Dec. 23, 2023 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | softball4b ... The National Rules Committee has already developed a "..best case response.." ... They may revisit the issue at the 2024 N.R.C. sessions next November or December, about 11 months from now, if anyone proposes it for potential Agenda inclusion ... In the interim, we would welcome the opportunity to review your specific action items to make sure "..the current rule is as effective as it could be.." ... |
| Dec. 23, 2023 Bones505 Men's 50 2 posts | Altered bats are going to be an issue until bat companies step up to make end caps non removable. Other associations have testing and altering of bats is still an issue. As a pitcher myself you just have to protect yourself the best you can. |
| Dec. 23, 2023 Mikelmart 152 posts | I think the penalty for team/manager suspension should be enforced. I don't think that any teammate or manager does not know that a fellow teammate is using an illegal bat. There's a player in our area that is well known for this violation and he's not referred to in glowing terms. Hopefully this nonsense will end one day, until then go to the gym, take extra BP, stay in shape or just resign yourself to being a little longer in the tooth and just compete. |
| Dec. 23, 2023 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | That’s ridiculous. I don’t even know what type of bat my teammates use let alone if they are shaved. |
| Dec. 23, 2023 hawkjms 3 posts | If for the reader this is strictly about shaved bats and cheaters read no further. But If safety is also an issue being discussed here perhaps we need to look at this in another light. Are the senior bats and the technology being allowed, regardless of cheaters, appropriate? Ask yourself, is a well broken-in senior bat, or even a brand new one out of the wrapper, a safety concern? Are the wrapped balls that tend to move like a Phil Niekro knuckleball safe? If so, who do we blame? Is it the manufacturers, the softball organizations? How about the players? I know for one I love my senior bats and I love me a senior ball! For me the risk is worth the reward. But maybe another goal for us all should be to make the game safer, as well as eliminate the cheaters. Food for thought. |
| Dec. 24, 2023 DJ12 19 posts | hawkjms...well said. Where do we draw the line. If we are talking about safety, then let's look at all aspects. ASA balls, aluminum bats, proper rankings, the list goes on and on. But I dont think we are talking about safety here, becuase it costs money to be safe, and there is not one organazation that is truly willing to to have this conversation to it's core. BTW, many, many pitchers get hurt with non-shaved bats way more than shaved bats. Yes, you look good talking about it, but fix the entire problem and not a very small portion of it. Just my .02. |
| Dec. 24, 2023 Mikelmart 152 posts | Dbax I don't understand how you don't know what kind of bat your teammates are swinging. The biggest part of being on a team or associating with a group of players (including batting practice) is what bat are they swinging. Is it end loaded, balanced, two piece, how long does it break in, how do you like it, can I swing it? The list goes on. My statement about a player who is known to used a shaved bat shouldn't come as a surprise to you or anyone else. |
| Dec. 24, 2023 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | Mikelmart, sorry, I did not realize the BIGGEST part of being on a team is knowing what bats my teammates swing. |
| Dec. 24, 2023 FTP Men's 50 16 posts | Ban player for life. Forfeit all games player was on roster for and.... 1 yr. ban on team from World Tournament. |
| Dec. 24, 2023 nickname36 94 posts | "EXACTLY" I feel you just need to suspend a player for the 1st offense and the next time ban him for calendar year from the time of the infraction just like pro sports and test his bat or bats at every tourney after he's allowed back, another failed test he's gone no excuses, gone for life he will never see the field again. When has a whole professional sports team been banned from playing for one guy testing positive for PEDs? The guy is suspended for X amount of time for the first offense and X amount of time for the second positive test for PEDs and has to submit to random drug testing. A pro player on roids is the ABOUT samething as a wimpy, 5foot nothing guy using a shaved bat hitting 350/400' bombs, when 5 years earlier he could barely hit 275plus. I'd be willing to bet more then half the players on a pro sports teams know what teammate or teammates are using PED's but play dumb and turn there head the other way they don't wanna upset the apple cart and be labeled a rat, same in softball. No matter what happens there will be people who think it should be one way and others think it should be their way. |
| Dec. 24, 2023 JohnO28 Men's 50 107 posts | Nickname36, There is absolutely no room for shaved bats in this game. It's absolutely ridiculous you are trying to lessen the ban on a player caught cheating with altered bats. So in your world a player needs to be caught cheating twice just to earn a 1 year ban.. Ridiculous |
| Dec. 24, 2023 JohnO28 Men's 50 107 posts | MikelMart, I pretty much know every bat my guys swing mostly because I'm a bat wh*re and am always trying new bats and so are some of our guys. But to say one of the biggest things about being on a team is knowing what bat your teammates swing. Highly doubt you will find many people to agree with you there. Every player knowing what every other player swings isn't really a top priority for most people. |
| Dec. 24, 2023 Bruce M Men's 55 122 posts | I pray for the pitcher that had to leave the field after being hit by a softball launched from a shaved bat. The batter, hopefully, has agreed to pay for all medical costs he caused through his negligence. If not, I would expect the pitcher to seek litigation against the Mr. Underwood. SSUSA has made it abundantly clear that they will not tolerate this behavior. I agree 100% with the way SSUSA has handled this. The rules have my full support. I also fully endorse naming the name of the team as well as the cheater. Steve Mummert's website is a travesty. It is not exactly a secret. The Website offers shaved bats of almost every major bat. For example, he advertises Mike Macenko's Big Cat SSUSA 2024 Gamer Series for $344.00...shaved at 25% or more This includes being rolled. That makes me sick to my stomach. Keep in mind, though, that shop would not be in business if people were not buying altered bats. SSUSA did the right thing by banning him for life. This is worse than just cheating. It's extremely dangerous. There is no room in this sport for people who put fellow players in serious danger. I can't think of anything more narcissistic. My hope is that any folks thinking about using such bats would re-think their decision. There is not gray area in this. It's just plain wrong. |
| Dec. 26, 2023 garyheifner 649 posts | Lots of interesting comments. The one thing I know is the bat companies should be smiling. When U crack your game bat or just want a backup, there is no way U can take a chance buying a used one from anyone. U got to go new. |
| Dec. 26, 2023 kotonk Men's 60 32 posts | Yes! Very interesting conversation! As a manager, player, and SSUSA director, I would tell my players don't even think about using an altered bat when playing on my team. I may not know and they may have an altered bat, but I'll tell them not to jeopardize the credibility of our team or the game. I've been told we have a problem with shaved/rolled bats here in Hawaii, but there's no way we can test and/or prove it. I've received numerous comments on it but it's beyond my control. If HQ can come up with a solution, I'd be happy to implement it. Someone commented on PEDs. Now that's another issue for later. I did mention it to Terry a year ago, since I do know players who are using PEDs. Mahalo. |
| Dec. 28, 2023 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | I have to weigh in. Maybe I am in a shell, but I cannot tell by the sound of a hit if it was a shaved bat. I have played against teams and been told later that my teammates were SURE they were using enhanced bats. I never knew. I play this game for the competition, the fun of playing, and the camaraderie. I don't watch what equipment my teammates use. It's not my concern. But if they were to use a shaved bat, I am not sure I would even know how to determine that outside of the obvious signs described in this thread. My feeling is that it is a sorry state we are in that cheating in a game that we are playing into our seventies and eighties is a target for cheating. Just WHY? Our Glory Days are behind us. Who is going to ever remember that an 80 year old hit 22 home runs with a shaved bat???? Who the heck cares? I am 100% behind disqualification if anyone is stupid enough to do this. I have bought 2 bats from AAA teammates-Dudley Lightnings. They are lively bats, but I am fully confident they are not 'enhanced'. But now I am hesitant to use them. We are Seniors, playing a game that kids play, at a level that people from our era never dreamed possible. Why do people have to cheat-even here? |
| Dec. 29, 2023 Cabs51 Men's 60 16 posts | Trust me Webbie, The Dudley I sold to Flash (very cheep) and he sold to you (very Cheep) is no way "enhanced" You have seen me swing it LOL. Paul Land (OTD) for sure now. |
| Dec. 29, 2023 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | I sure didn't mean to infer that it was. I did say I was fully confident they are not. Sorry for the misunderstanding. |
| Dec. 29, 2023 yankeesfan12 29 posts | EVER sport that has been played from day one(1) has had they're share of cheating in one way or the other and softball is no exception you will never stop it. If there is an advantage to cheating to be had, people will find a way to cheat and take advantage of it, male of female. |
| Dec. 30, 2023 garyheifner 649 posts | Question: When someone shows that ring won using an illegal bat to the grand kids, does he tell them he cheated to win??? |
| Dec. 31, 2023 yankeesfan12 29 posts | Hmmm. Do professional players that used PED's to win the ring and never get caught tell his grand kids he used PED's to win the ring heck no. Does the high school players in baseball that used PED's and a shaved bat and broke all the high school and state records does he tell the grand kids, heck no, and that goes for all the other high school players in every state and every sport. I know dads that have there kids bats shaved in little league and girls fast pitch and travel ball. Good luck in stopping it anytime soon I don't agree with it but what can I do to stop it? If I was to say anything and rat out a male or female, using illegal equipment id never be able to show my face in a park again and nobody would want me on a slow pitch team or my daughter or boy on a team, all three of us would be labeled as rats, as the old saying goes "SNITCHES GET STITCHES". You will never stop PED's and shaved bats no matter what level of play they're in and that goes for male and female players. Tournaments couldn't afford the time or expense to check every bat before every game and complaints to the ump during a game if they suspect a shaved bat. What needs to happen, I have no idea I just keep my mouth shut and play the game as it is and hope nobody gets hurt. |
| Jan. 3, 2024 ffdonnie Men's 60 137 posts | My 2 cents, shaved bats is a disaster waiting to happen. When someone is killed, then maybe we'll see a change in our sport. I don't agree with the people that say it's easy to tell which bat is shaved. I play M+ and there are a lot of good athletes with good swings that hit hard. You can't say they swing dirty just by the look of it. Sure if a guy has a weak slow swing, then it's obvious. I don't agree with the thinking that it's the younger, or higher level players that are the problem. I know of a handful of 70+ aaa players that swing dirty bats. Stupidity has no boundaries. I definitely don't agree with penalizing a whole team for one idiots stupidity. I see some of my teammates only a couple times a year. I don't know them very well, and don't know their character. But ssusa wants me to be their morals police? The only way to stop this is to have provided bat tourneys. I played in the World Police and Fire Games several years ago. Three bats were left at the plate for everyone to use. It took a little adjustment, but it was still a lot of fun. No pitchers were blown up, no bones broken, and the guys who could legitimately hit home runs did. There was even some defense seen. Will ssusa take this step? Hell no. There is a lot of money to be lost by doing this, by them and all the equipment manufactures. The all mighty American dollar wins, we lose. With that said, I applaud ssusa attempts to discourage shaving. Who knows, maybe if more people are banned lifetime it might help. But not by throwing innocent people under the bus. |
| Jan. 3, 2024 Eazy Men's 50 7 posts | This topic is a double edge sword. A lot of players are saying they want Senior Softball to do something about all the shaved bats and when they do, players are up in arms. People are aware of the rules and if you get caught, you have to take the punishment that comes with it. You know when that base hitter, turned into a homerun hitter and hasn't spent any time in the gym (something is going on). If you have that is not that muscular, with not much bat speed but the ball is leaving the yard(Something is going on). I study the game and I can tell the majority of the time if a bat has been to the barbershop for a shave and a haircut. I play 3rd base and Shortstop and I actually look at batters size and bat speed when he is at bat. If he is generating good bat speed and has good technique he is supposed to hit ball hard. If the batter doesn't have a lot of bat speed and he is hitting the ball a long ways (something is not right). If you have the big monsters hitting it is harder to determine if the stick is shaved. The only reason I am even responding to this is because this is something to look for when you suspect someone on your team is swinging shaved. I never call player out on other teams, but I see it. |
| Jan. 4, 2024 JohnO28 Men's 50 107 posts | Eazy, I agree with you to a point. I've seen small guys with good mechanics and bat speed absolutely murder the ball. I've seen monster guys that you would expect to kill the ball be punching judy hitters because of either bad mechanics or slow bat speed or a combination of both. I've seen average sized guys be really good or bad but sometimes people swings while they might look bad work well for them and they get a lot of exit velocity and/or distance with an ugly swing no matter what bat they use with clean stock bats. You have to look beyond just the look of a swing because there is no perfect cookie cutter swing that works for everyone. But I do hear what you're saying, seen plenty of guys over the years dropping bombs with certain bats but can't get the ball to the warning track with other bats. Sometimes a bat just works better for some people than others or one bat fits a players swing better and he excels with it. Doesn't mean it's shaved but I always look beyond the swing and a players size and sometimes you can just hear a bat has been worked or is so extremely broken in that it's about to blow up. There is no 1 way to tell over another but sometimes multiple signs point towards it. But if the associations don't have anything set in place as far as questioning a bat then what are we supposed to do. Also, another thing to remember is how small the softball world really is because of the internet. All it might take is a person who's swinging a stock bat but if the associastions put together some some of testing protocol in place and guys start getting called out for swinging shaved bats by a few people the name will spread like wild fire across these forums and you know damn well all most people will hear is "they're cheaters they swing dirty" regardless if it's true or not that is the only part some people will here and not even read the whole story, just the par thtat fits their narrative. There is no simple right or wrong way to take care of this and hold people accountable any time soon. As soon as something is set in place the cheaters will find an different way around it. They've been trying to cut back on cheaters with the youngers guys for years and whatever they come up with the cheaters find a way around it. Hell a big share of the shaving market now is girls fastpitch and little league bats. It's ridiculous and scary but no simple solution. At the end of the day bat sales is a multi million dollar business every year and so is bat shaving. The only company I've seen try to do something about it was Pure with their endcaps and even those are being shaved. Unfortunately, Senior players bitching on the internet won't do a damn thing because people will still play and buy bats and that is all companies care about. |
| Jan. 6, 2024 Casey39 17 posts | Ridiculous to think that a manager or other players know if a teammate is swinging a shaved bat. You may know, but its doubtful. To put this on a manager is pretty unfair. Put it on the culprit! If the other team "knows" that a guy is swinging something illegal, call them out on it! Most guys have 4+ bats in their bag. Usually 15 guys on a roster....so the manager is responsible for 60 bats? Solution to end shaved, rolled or worked bats: Lifetime ban on that player. Period. End of discussion. If you are willing to risk the time, then go ahead and do the crime. If a team calls out a player, charge the team $300. Cut open the bat and see whats up. If the bat is illegal, the team gets their money back. If its legal, the player gets $200 to buy a new bat and SSUSA keeps $100. So if that 130lb 2nd basemen hits a ball 320, ask the umpire to take the bat, pay your $300 and see what happens. |
| Jan. 6, 2024 JohnO28 Men's 50 107 posts | You know it's 100% illegal to take someones property and cut it open right? That's why it's not done anymore because people got sued over it. It's also not fair to a legit hitter getting accused by butt hurt players to lose his "Gamer" bat because some people are just sore losers. If someone takes my bat and cuts it open to find out its 100% stock they are going to owe me a lot more than $300. They are going to replace my bat and compensate me for my time spent taking BP getting my gamer to that status. |
| Jan. 7, 2024 Johndoc#7 Men's 50 8 posts | Casey39 I kind of like your thinking on this. But if the bat is found to be legal then pay the player $400 because the the team lost their appeal plus the player loses his bat and has to buy a new one.If its illegal then suspend the player! |
| Jan. 8, 2024 PoollShark Men's 50 90 posts | It's all about people's damn egos, I don't understand the need for these hot senior bats to begin with. I play senior ball with guys I've been playing with my entire adult life, I've seen guys using legal senior bats smashing homeruns that never hit them in their 20's and 30's. I just don't understand why we need bats that hot and I'm talking about legit senior bats, it's all about ego. Our reflexes are slowing down with age, using these bats I see balls coming at me faster than ever before in my life, why???? Do you really want to fix the problem? Because I don't think you(senior softball officials) really want to, if you did you'd bring down the overall hotness of these bats to a respectable level. I'll ask again: Why do we need these incredibly hot legal bats??? |
| Jan. 8, 2024 nickname36 94 posts | "EXACTLY" They never will "DUMB" down the bats then the old guys would wine that they can't hit it out of the infield and then they would have to go play shuffle board with there wives LOL LOL.. I know 4 70's plus players that use shaved just for the very reason I mentioned, they definitely don't wanna play shuffle board with there wives. |
| Jan. 20, 2024 Markanthoni24 4 posts | I recognize that a shaved bat should carry a penalty, but the point is being completely missed. Placing the blame solely on the bat and the user. Let us be honest: we are all over 50 and participate in a sport that requires diminishing skill. Thus, the question is: WHY are you attempting to field a ball when the pitching distance is 50' from home plate's back to the pitching rubber's front edge? Pitchers attempt to field their position in order to either assist the team or keep them occupied in the infield. Why are pitchers attempting to field a ball that can travel at speeds between 97 and 115 mph when it comes off the bat? You have the OPTION to use a net thanks to SSUSA. With the exception of his facemask, I can assure you that the pitcher lacked a net and most likely no other protective gear. What I would advise: - Make the use of a NET a requirement for all pitchers over 60. - Allow +50 & 55 to utilize a NET as an option. From head to shin, you have to be wearing safety equipment. - STOP +40 players from using Senior BATs. The reason is that those players are still only 30 yrs old at 40 with young man strength, so there is no need for a Senior Bat. The reason they are swinging them is because our bats are HOTTER than theirs. They can't hit HR with their rated bats so need something hotter (SENIORS BAT) |
| Jan. 20, 2024 JohnO28 Men's 50 107 posts | Markanthoni24, What SSUSA tourneys are you playing that have nets? this is my 6th year of playing Senior ball and I have NEVER ONCE seen a net supplied in a SSUSA, NSA, ISA, ISSA tourney for a pitcher. I have only once seen a net supplied and that was in One Nation and only 1 team ever used it. And exactly which guys are hitting 115MPH? I agree that 40 year old shouldn't be allowed to use Senior bats but I don't play 40 so it doesn't really apply to me. I just find is funny that they call it Senior ball at 40. Let them use Senior rules with USA or USSSA bats, they don't need Senior bats to play at 40. |
| Jan. 20, 2024 Markanthoni24 4 posts | JohnO28, In November, I played in the TOC in Arizona. Although the nets were available for use, pitchers would use them. I questioned the umpire about why nobody was using them. He claimed that although they had asked to use nets prior to the start of the tour, the director of that tournament had to pay extra to use the park's nets. Consequently, the lack of NETs on the fields can be attributed to SSUSA FUNDING. The truth is that they were unable to purchase a heavy-duty net, which would have cost them between $100 and $150 and could be reused. Given how long these nets last, they are not purchasing them at every competition. But instead of offering a safe playing environment, they are going after the players, claiming that it is just the bats. |
| Jan. 20, 2024 JohnO28 Men's 50 107 posts | Markanthoni24, Sorry, that is just too hard to follow, it doesnt make a whole lot of sense. Be that as it may, I've never seen or heard of SSUSA supplying Nets for pitchers at any tourney I've ever played at. And it is on the people using illegal bats, not sure how you don't understand that. You can't blame a pitcher for someone cheating. |
| Jan. 20, 2024 Donna McGuire 65 posts | Markanthoni24, SSUSA does NOT allow pitching screens in its tournaments. The issue has been discussed at several Rules Committee meetings, but screens never have been approved. So they would not have been on the fields at the Winter Worlds in Phoenix in November. |
| Jan. 20, 2024 Markanthoni24 4 posts | JohnO28, I fully comprehend the section regarding illegal bats and agree wholeheartedly. I am trying to figure out why these guys, who are over 50, are attempting to parry bullets that are moving faster than their own reaction times. Really, and the only thing they are wearing is a facemask and a 16-inch glove. Convincing themselves that they still possess it at +50! To whom? Someone who is not going to cover their medical expenses. In situations where they are unable to play with a NET, all of our pitchers are completely padded down. When our uncut bats are broken in and we swing a lot, they can hit balls at a speed of +105 mph. Our pitchers, who are all registered players, have all said, "Why catch it with my glove when it is an out at the net?" The math does not add up, so why would you not defend yourself when closest to the gun? All SSUSA has to do is purchase NETS and mandate that users of a specific age range use them. Or if a team has a NET that game, they should be able to use it. (Safety) Add a NET to the field; I swear to you. There would be very few balls hit up the middle, I promise. Why? because it is a failsafe method. Due to their deterrent effect, NETS prevents hits from going up the middle wherever we play (OUT). |
| Jan. 20, 2024 Markanthoni24 4 posts | Donna, Due to disapproval from a board member(s), SSUSA does not permit pitching screens in its competitions. Still, you want these players to pitch from 50 feet and catch a ball that is traveling at a speed of +100 right off the bat at over 50 years of age. Since you are the closest to the gun, a glove and mask are the only things that can keep me safe. The Nets have been in existence for more than 50 years, so there is no negative evidence to suggest that "he got hurt pitching behind the Net." This is a really simple fix: All SSUSA has to do is purchase NETS and mandate that users of a specific age range use them. It is a fail-safe method. Due to their deterrent effect, NETS prevents hits from going up the middle at pitchers heights. |
| Jan. 20, 2024 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | Markanthoni24 ... Donna is the tenured Chair (ten years of service) of the SSUSA National Rules Committee, so let's get right to the point: What you allege is, respectfully, complete nonsense, either originating from the umpire or yourself, individually or collectively ... • SSUSA does NOT provide for, or even allow the use of pitcher screens in tournament play ... Local leagues may (and many do) have local league rules permitting their use, but not in SSUSA sanctioned tournament play; • SSUSA does NOT contract for the rental (or other arrangements) for use of screens that may be deployed Contract Tournament Directors; • Contract Tournament Directors do NOT have the authority to make financial arrangements for items that are not permitted ... In fact, they have all been advised that permitting the use of pitching screens in tournament play is grounds for termination; • This umpire, presuming you have quoted him accurately, is completely ill-informed of the tournament administration function as it relates to screens; and • The Rules committee meets at the annual National Convention in late November ... Public participation is welcome, in person, by snail mail, or by identifiable (as to you) email correspondence in advance of the meetings ... Message Board commentary is specifically excluded from potential Agenda consideration ... The last few messages in this thread should remove any doubt as to why we have this policy ... We have wandered way off the original topic regarding the new penalty for the use of altered bats, not to mention an excessive "pitch count", so ... ** THREAD CLOSED ** |
