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Discussion: Team Ratings

Posted Discussion
April 24, 2008
Llama Man
Men's 55
15 posts
Team Ratings
I'm wondering about the team ratings again this year when you have a team(Second Wind) that has won the 50 AA National Championship two years in a row yet is not moved up to AAA. Then another team(Vancouver Merchants) gets moved up from 50 AAA to Majors in mid season last year and is not even allowed to play for the AAA National Championship(after winning the Western Nationals as a AAA team). Now, this year I see that Four Seasons(50 Major team in 2007) combines with the Vancouver Merchants(finished 2007 as Major team) and are now rated as a 50 AAA for 2008!!! Can anyone in Sacramento explain the logic here? I'm not a member of any of the teams but know them all well. You seem to not be following your own rules here!
April 24, 2008
clutch1
Men's 70
11 posts
There has always been favoriteism in the ratings system. It has become who you know in the system to protect you. For example the Winter Nationals, Florida was touted as a non-moving tourney. A Florida team placed first two years in a row in 60's AA and never moved to AAA. We won it as 65's AAA and get moved to Major before we leave to go home. There was approx. 19 winners in 2007 and 13 get moved. What and why prevented the remaining teams from being moved if it supposed to be done fairly across the tourney.
April 24, 2008
2awesom
Men's 50
296 posts
Unfortunately there will always be issues when it comes to putting teams in their proper class. I mean this goes on in all associations and probably will never end.

It seems like everyone wants to play down.

However, SSUSA has always had the policy that New Teams start at the AAA level. Just as soon as that new teams wins something, rest assured they will be moved up!
April 24, 2008
kbl
Men's 60
523 posts
2awesome-- are playing in york? also, did you guys pick up jeff haas?
April 24, 2008
2awesom
Men's 50
296 posts
hi we are indeed playing in york - first game is 10:30

i have been in contact with Jeff Haas

At this point we have a full roster, so I told Jeff we
would eventually like him to play with us but it
depends how things work out.

Obviously you know Jeff, what can you tell me'
about him? He sounds like a great guy!
April 24, 2008
stever
Men's 65
56 posts
There are two ways to get moved up - one objective and one subjective. The first way is to win one of the 9 association national championships. These are the ONLY tournaments where moving the champion up in rating is mandatoryThis move you automatically to the next higher division for the following year. It can be appealed after playing in three qualifying tournaments IF the championship had 5 or less teams in the division. It cannot be appealed for one year if the division had 6 or more teams. The second way is a subjective evaluation based upon how you played against other teams in tournaments during the year. All new teams start the season as AAA. All combined or new names are rated based on the roster and the teams the players came from. If you pick up 6 or more players from a higher division team you will automatically gain that higher rating, regardless of the ratings of the remainder of the players. Also, players who have played on Major Plus teams cannot play on AAA or AA teams without specific written approval of the association. There are three rating deadlines: Jan 31 which reflects the rating changes from the 2007 national championships; May 15 which is the first time teams are rated on the current years performance; and, Aug 15 which is the last time ratings will be changed until after the last national championship. These rules are written in the guidelines put out by SSWC and every manager gets a copy.

By the way Llama Man, Extreme won the 50AA SSWC championship last year, not Second Wind. You can also check all the national championship winners and whether or not they are eligible to appeal their rating change on under the Team Ratings and Summit section of this board. Also, for clutch1, Winter Nationals is not a tournament that requires automatic change of rating.
April 24, 2008
Llama Man
Men's 55
15 posts
Stever,
Thanks for the explanation of the ratings rules, which I have heard before. But the ratings don't seem to always follow these rules you state. Second Wind did win the U S National Championship in SSUSA in both 2006 and 2007in AA. Extreme won the World Championship in AA in Phoenix. Vancouver Merchants won the NW Championship and Western Nationals in 2007in AAA and was moved to Majors before the Worlds in Phoenix and declared co-champs with the Eastern National AAA champs. Now in 2008, Four Seasons, which won the 2006 SSUSA Worlds in AAA and was moved to Majors for 2007,has combined with Vancouver Merchants, which ended 2007 as a Major team. Two Major teams combine and they get to start over as a AAA team? It does seem as though some teams get favored treatment and don't have to follow those rules you quoted. Just wondered how others felt about it.
April 24, 2008
4seasons2b
3 posts
Llama Man, Four Seasons petitioned to go down to AAA this year from major last year and it was granted early this year. After that date part of Four Seasons and part of Vancouver Merchants merged. We haven't played in a Senior Softball event yet, but in May expect to see us at the Can-Am and at Rock'n Reno playing major.
Mark
2B, Four Seasons
April 25, 2008
local
120 posts
I understand the reason behind Vancouver and Four Seasons but there is no plausible explanation for Second Wind to stay AA after winning national tournaments year after year. This does not pass the smell test.
April 25, 2008
ShaneV
Men's 55
380 posts
I probably should stay out of this but I can't help it. The information we have is often not complete. We see general information and judge it the way we want. I'm sure re-classifying a team is not at all an easy decision for the ratings committee. I do trust that they have more complete and accurate information that any of us.

In 2006, Second Wind won Western 50AA in Reno with more than 5 teams in the division, barely, in 5 loser bracket games on Sunday, in 104 degree heat. An amazing feat. Not an automatic reclassification. This qualified us for the National Championship GAME, I repeat single GAME, in Seattle. The Eastern team did not enter, so we were by default the National Champion. I think we forfeited a pool game because of rain and rescheduling or something like that. We then lost our first two in the brackets in real heartbreakers. Oh well, we were dealing with management issues and Seattle home field advantage just didn't help us.

In 2007, we won Western again, with 3 teams in our division, again not an automatic reclassification. Again we qualified for the National Championship GAME, I repeat GAME, We scratched out a 1 run victory over the Kansas City Monarchs, a great bunch of guys, in 3.5 hours in 92 degree heat Friday afternoon in Phoenix. Not any kind of automatic reclassification. We went undefeated on Saturday in brackets. We met Extreme Softball Sunday morning and were beat pretty badly. They were tough! We won one more in the losers bracket and then lost to the AZ team, OTD. We finished 4th behind Extreme (now AAA - automatic), OTD and Baker Boyz.

As far as I can tell, by the book. I've read or been told that teams can get bumped by repeatedly pounding teams in their classification, and the Ratings Committee has the information and I hope the time to review it carefully.

Second Wind's ultimate goal has been the triple whatever they call it, Western, National and World. Maybe this will be the year? And the reclassification will be automatic.
April 26, 2008
Gary Heifner
248 posts
I agree the rating system is interesting at times. My team won the 60AA nationals in Seattle in 2006. We won "5" one run games. We moved up to AAA in 2007 as required and pretty much got pounded including 0-5 in Phoenix. We applied for a return to AA this year and as far as we can tell, are being turned down. To add to our outlook for the year, most of our guys are 64-67 years old. We just can't compete with the new teams loaded with 59-60 year olds and the teams that have reorganized combining the top players from several other teams and somehow escaping under the radar in the rating system.
Looks like we might get another year of being the cannon fodder in our tournies and have to hang on for 2009 when we move up to the 65 division and might have a chance to win.
April 26, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
You that receive the newspaper, should have it soon and a very good article on this subject addresses the "how & why" written by TH.
April 26, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
If Four Seasons and Vancouver combined, you should be able to compete at the Major level. I do agree with the Second Wind issue, it does seem they have won a lot of tournaments and never have to move up.
April 26, 2008
hornachec
Men's 55
50 posts
Come on Shane, the object of Senior softball is not to win the triple crown, it's to play at a competative level. You guys are at least a AAA team. Heck you beat Ruth 55's last weekend with only a 5 run spot. Didn't you win the NSA tourney at Celebration earlier this month? You sure bought your national championship jackets fast enough after that no show win. As Washington director you'll take a lot more heat than this. Step up to AAA if you get your butt's kicked then you can petition to go back to AA and tell everybody I told you so.
April 27, 2008
RochBob
53 posts
SSUSA has always had the policy that New Teams start at the AAA level

This is not true.

SSUSA makes the rules based on what they want to do.

I just recently got a new 70's team together and mucj to my surprise, They called and informed me that we are a Majors team.
April 27, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Rochbob,
I do know if you read the article wrote in the paper you will see that they check all rosters. Unlike many assn out their that just place them in to play.
Perhaps your team was or was not loaded to the gills and they felt that is where you belonged... Perhaps not as well. but what ever there ason at least they notified you. I that is better than showing up and then finding out where you were or who you were to play against.
I have only played in SSUSA for about 5-6 years now, I always avoided them before that. You go as a team usually were rated as a team, but then it all changed.Player rating (impact players) attachment isn't for me. Back then I had a concern, not now.
Play hard give it your all, learn something. You'll be better in the long run.
April 28, 2008
RochBob
53 posts
Last year a team out of Mpls known very well by Terry Hennessy was rated AAA when they joined the 70's division

That same team at 65 was rated majors, team members remained about 100% the same.

What is good for the Goose should be good for the Gander but somehow they manage to make these exceptions for certain teams.

Forming a 70's team is not an easy task. I f I had to think about it again I probably would not do it.

I do not liove in an area where there are lots of 70's players.

It is basically taking a player that will travel and be loyal to the team.

The point is it should be the same for all. Not based on what they think or who they know or don't lnow.

This is a new team with some experienced players and some new players.
April 28, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
RochBob,
Perhaps that is where the New Teams start at AAA comes into play...
April 28, 2008
Sisavic
134 posts
Llama Man - great post, but wrong question.

Here's my 2 cents worth: Virtually no one wants to "play down," but just about all of us want to be rated "fairly." I've managed and been on AA, AAA, Major, Major+ teams and none of the players on these teams wanted to be in a division where they creamed the competition. BUT, player don't wants to go to a tournament and lose 100% of its games over and over again -- most will quit or find another team after a couple of years.

Another point: It is apprpriate for teams to be moved up for 1 to 2 years after winning the Worlds. Most divisions have 100+ teams (except Major+ and some Majors) and the teams that came in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. should have a chance to win the Worlds without playing the previous year's winner..

PS Good post, Shane
April 28, 2008
Sisavic
134 posts
Llama Man,

Sorry, I responded to the wrong post. Just confirms what my wife says about my dwindling mind.
May 3, 2008
ShaneV
Men's 55
380 posts
Favorite sayings:

"Nothing is completely good or completely bad."

"Everybody gets what's coming to them."

Least favorite saying:

"Squeaky wheel gets the grease."

Second Wind 50AAA
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