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Discussion: Why the constant changes?

Posted Discussion
Jan. 2, 2009
Llama Man
Men's 55
15 posts
Why the constant changes?
To SSUSA "Powers That Be",
I've been playing in SSUSA tourneys since 2003 and for the most part really enjoy the competition. What I don't understand is why the big push to change the rules and move teams up in divsions in such a hurry? It seems most of the changes are being made to give the Major+ teams more teams to play(beat up on!). Most of us want to play with therules as they have always been and at a level where we can be competitive. There will always be teams that try to sanbag at a lower division and there will always be "paid for" teams with all the biggest studs at Major+. But why should teams be forced to move up to Major+ to provide more fodder for those teams? If you want to play at the highest level, realize that you won't have as many teams to play against. Keep the old HR limits , you shouldn't have to have DBO's, at any level, just go 1 up after the limit or singles.If you can hit HR's anytime, you should play Major+ but teams shouldn't be forced to move up levels every time they win anything. I find Major+ boring....glorified HR Derby with not much defense or running, but that's fine for those who enjoy the HR the most! Teams shouldn't have to move up until they win many tourneys over the course of the year and get a chance to play for a National Champiohship! I know many teams moved up after winning one tourney early in the year and have seen teams win the Westwrn Nationals and then not get to play for the National Championship. I've also seen teams with "connections" win a National Championship two years in a row at the same level and not get moved up( until alot of complaints forced it)! If teams are too strong for the division they are in, move them up at the end of the year after the results prove it....not just to give the higher division teams move teams to play! I'm willing to give the new "pitcher protection rule" a chance since no one wants to see players hurt bad, but pitchers must be able to play defense and can wear protectve equipment if they want. I know some pitchers that do wear alot of stuff and then hit at the opposing pitchers! But hitters should be able to use the whole field and pitchers should expect to have to play defense! The constant push in the last few years to change things is disrupting a great game that doesn't need changng. Leave the bats and balls alone...those misguided leagues that try to dampen down the power (ASA etc.) are making softball into mush ball that nobody enjoys. SSUSA has been a fun place to play but the changes have mostly all been making for alot of turmoil and unhappy players! Leave well enough alone and we will continue to come to your tourneys. There is no reason to make all these changes to all levels for the benefit of Major +. That's my two cents worth!!!
Llama Man
Jan. 2, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1264 posts
Llama Man you are 100% right on the money. You should have Hennessey's job! Let this be the last post on this subject.
Jan. 2, 2009
hombre
Men's 60
220 posts
Dbax, you just beat me to it. LlamaMan, well said.
Jan. 2, 2009
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
Exactly!
Jan. 2, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Llama Man,

So how do you handle the Major teams that get moved to the Major+ because they have won a tourney or a AAA team that gets moved up to Major. The majors have plenty of teams but the Major+ does not. Are you saying we should not be able to play or break our team up after playing together for years because we won a tourney and now have to go to tourneys with either no one to play or 1 other team. Example Phoenix there was 6 to 8 teams playing Major that is very capable of playing Major+ out of 26 teams. In 55 Major+ we had three. When each player is paying their own way thats a lot of money to play 2 teams.
So may I please have your suggestions. Having no one or 1 or 2 teams to play was that way all year and was no fun. another of the rules was Major+ teams were to pay an extra $200 on top of the entry fee and there was no way we had the extra money 5 tourneys extra $1,000 so should we be forced to quit. SSUSA is just trying to get teams to play in their proper division and still be able to compete. There is nothing wrong with trying to keep any team from getting beat by 20 or 30 runs.
Jan. 2, 2009
softball4b
Men's 60
732 posts
Butch17 since your referred to Phoenix therefore bracket games only

Winners Bracket winning score differential

1-5 runs 8 games, 6-10 runs 3 games, 11-15 runs 2 games, 16+ runs 2games

Losers Bracket winning score differential

1-5 runs 10 games, 6-10 runs 3 games, 11-15 runs 1 game, 16+ runs 1 game

I am not sure I agree that 6 or 8 teams could have Major +. Seems to me most of the teams were pretty equal.
Jan. 2, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
Butch I believe I met you in Utah at Huntsman I'm a friend of Steve Imlay's. A friend got me back on track and I've come to the conclusion that not much headway will be made via this vehicle the internet message board in either convincing teams to come to major plus or convincing them how your team is constructed. I see two roads dial it back and go major or make the best of the situation at hand. Let's take 50 major plus I see 14 teams total listed nationwide. Hopefully if SSUSA does move some teams up they will move up the most willing and maybe add 1/2 dozen or so. Maybe with some good old fashioned networking and coordination torunaments such as Reno, Vegas, Phoenix, Chicago and 1 or 2 more we can get 8-12 teams showing up, that would work for me. Then there is no explaining, no begging, just some decent very competitive softball. Maybe if you can show the rest of softball what you guys (major plus) are capable of some more will want to join. I know when I played in the 40's and we were done I headed straight to the parks where the big boys were.
Jan. 2, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Lecak
yes we did meet in Utah. Hope your holidays were great. I agree that not much is going to get accomplished on this board but I would like to see more of us grown-ups ( and yes I use this term loosely) that love and enjoy this game give SSUSA a chance and see what happens. I'm sure you and Steve haven't had bp for at least a month. lol

Softball4b I'm sorry I was talking about 50 Major and was just making the point about moving up.
Jan. 2, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
softball4b

I just looked at the teams in 55 Major that were in Phoenix and there was 5 or 6 teams that can play Major+. These are teams we have played against in the past.
Jan. 2, 2009
softballman
2 posts
i am looking for teams & players in the longview - marshall or texarkana, texas area. can you or anyone else help?
Jan. 2, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Neil,
Well said, honest and true and you represent the most of us.
Thanks.
Jan. 2, 2009
Llama Man
Men's 55
15 posts
Butch 17,
I understand your dlemma in Major +, not having many teams to play and always playing the same few. Not alot of fun, I realize. I think that Major teams that win a National Championship should be moved up. I think that Major teams that consistently win many smaller tourneys should be moved up. But I don't like to see so many changes to the rules that are effecting all of the divisions to try to give you guys more teams to play.I think the Major + teams should try to coordinate among themselves to all go to a few of the biggest tourneys so you will all have better competition and more teams to play. I've been on a National Champ in AAA that was moved to Majors and with only a slightly changed lineup, didn't win a thing the next year. We could have( and should have the right to) petition to go back down, but instead the team was split up with half the team picking up Major + players and going to the Major + division. The guys that went Major + didn't enjoy it for the reasons you state. Those left off the team, myself included, have had to scrape around looking for teams that needed help to be able to play SSUSA tourneys. So, I know how it goes both ways. I just don't want to see alot of turmoil caused by so many changes to all the divisions . Good luck in 2009 and hope you get to play more teams this year.
Llama Man
Jan. 2, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
You have NO idea how many people he represents. Could you please show me the results of the survey you took that allows to you to make that comment?
Jan. 2, 2009
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
DIRTY: Not many, that read this Message Board likes you, Dirty..
"He," represent more than you, Dirty, ever will. After all "he" plays & you, stinky, do not play in Seniors.

Why? not enough players will play on the same team that you, Dirty, play on. Are you in denial? Can't play & no one enjoys or wants to play or be you, Dirty's.

Little person, who are you, Dirty, to ask anyone a question?
The following statement Dirty: "results of the survey you took that allows to you to make that comment?"

O.K., Dirty, first, show or prove to the many Seniors, that Gary S, has helpful or thoughtful ideas of any importants . What possible information Gary, will you Dirty, give to Seniors that may help Senior Ball? NONE, to date.

All you will ever be Dirty, is just a small person, not a man,
one who, will always be nothing. How rude, on our parts.


THi-J
Jan. 2, 2009
Stretch14
Men's 50
185 posts
Dirty, what comment are you talking about? There's 14 of them. Make up your mind.
Jan. 3, 2009
MaverickAH
59 posts
Honestly........ I am of senior eligible age but prefer not to play the slowpitch game. I much prefer the modified & fastpitch game & there is plenty of senior modified around to play if I so choose. I am still fully capable of competing on an open, no age restriction level & that's what I choose to do. Whenever I visit this board & see all the crying, moaning & childish behavior it dampens any thoughts of playing senior slowpitch.

Senior slowpitch is a rare thing in my area but it does exist. The one league that I'm familiar with let the players vote annually on bats. They vote every year to maintain a "singlewall only" policy & have even banned the White Steel. When they go to tourneys they pull out the composites & everyone is happy. No one complains........

One thing that this game taught me a long tie ago. There are always going to be rules & situations that you don't like. As long as those rules are enforced equally & those situations are not purposely designed to put you at a disadvantage, YOU PLAY THE GAME!!!!!

At some point you've got to stop whining, crying & complaining. Put on your cleats, pick up your bat & glove, adapt to the game presented before you & play! HR limit & you're out? Start hitting the gaps & rattling those chainlink fences! Answer the challenge! In the long run it'll probably make you a better player.

Seniors? Nothing but a bunch of crybabies.........
Jan. 3, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Maverick AH.
Is this Sarah Palin?
If so, you sure look hot in that pageant swim suit I keep seeing on the internet.

Had you had the sense of manhood most of us possess
you'd sign in like some 80 per cent of us do and then we, you and I,
could have a discussion.

But suffice to say that I could create a list of 100 guys
off the top of my head that not only would kick your ass on the field
but off as well for being as personally disrespectful
as you have calling us whiners and crybabies.
We care about our sport, our investment, our enjoyment
and each other and you sir or madam or boy or girl
are obviously not one of us.
Say what you will in response
as I'm sure you want to
but expect no return from me unless you care to be accountable
as most of us are, for what we say and do.
Jan. 3, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Sorry Nancy et al.
I use manhood to describe the sense of honor and fairness that characterizes
the souls of both men AND women
and in this sense, madam, you are the best of us.
Jan. 5, 2009
MaverickAH
59 posts
Hmmm........ Interesting post Mr. "Einstein". I don't get the Palin comment but coming from you, I guess that type of thing is to be expected.

Manhood? I can tell you this...... There is no part of my manhood tied to any part of a softball game or an internet board. My manhood is solely devoted to taking care of my family & responsibilities. Almost every person that I've ever met that has let softball define their manhood has turned out to be not much of a man.

You know a 100 guys better than me? Hell!!! I KNOW A 100 GUYS BETTER THAN ME!!! So what's your point? As far as the threat goes...... That just shows a real lack of intelligence when you resort to such tactics. It seems that you are "no Einstein" after all!

Sport is about the competition & although you say you care about your sport I strongly suspect that all you really care about is you. I see how you operate on this board & I highly doubt that you are someone I'd want to associate with. I know your type all too well. If senior bats were to go away so would you. Crying & whining all the way.........

P.S. You'll still probably respond to this post eventhough you said you wouldn't. You just can't help yourself!

As for me? I am through.........
Jan. 5, 2009
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Einstein, why don’t you leave the political metaphors for some other message board. In the last two days you have invoked Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin in your rants. You don’t see anyone bringing up Nancy Pelosi do you? Maybe you should have taught drivers ed. like a lot of other teachers in the summer. Then you could have picked your own station and wouldn’t have had to listen to Limbaugh. Keep it to softball and we’ll all be happy.
Jan. 5, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1264 posts
MaverickAH, that was beautiful. Well said.
Jan. 5, 2009
##7
Men's 55
15 posts
Maverick,
Well said, honest and true and you represent the most of us!! He's no Einstein .--lol
Jan. 5, 2009
Mac21
Men's 65
35 posts
I don't make many posts on this message board, but I visit it often to see what's being discussed. Over the last few years it's been like a sopap opera...you can not visit for months, but when you do it's the same plot with the same characters...Major + teams/players complaing about not having enough teams to play and then complaining about the rule changes trying to make it more competitive for the lesser teams that get moved up. It would be great if there were enough real Major + teams in the country to have tournaments with 8 or 10 Major + teams show up..but it's time to face reality...there just aren't enough. Forcing legitimate Major teams to move up is not the answer.
In case anyone is interested, there are 676 teams listed in the Team Ratings. 68 of the 676 or 10% are Major +. Broken down by age:
Age 50 - 15 of 173 or 9%
Age 55 - 14 of 120 or 12%
Age 60 - 15 of 159 or 9%
Age 65 - 9 of 115 or 8%
Age 70 - 10 of 86 or 12%
Age 75 - 5 of 23 or 21%
When you start catering to the minority rather than the majority you are asking for trouble. Changing rules and adjusting ratings just to "make Major + a viable division" might just cause a backlash for which SSUSA is not ready.
Jan. 6, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I don't have or make time
for cowards, clowns and losers.

Call 'em like I see 'em, Ken.
You don't have to agree with me.
Thanks for signing in.
Email me if you want to talk to me.

Llama man.
You're still the man of this post.
Jan. 6, 2009
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
Mac21, very well said!
Jan. 6, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
MaverickAH... So eloquently written... You, like many of us, have figured out Mr. Einstein for what he really is ... Mr. Einstein is very careful to look out for what is in his best interest ... While at the same time trying to convince the rest of us that he is speaking for the majority! ... His ego has no bounds.... He sucks up to the big boys in here, and attempts to intimidate others... I find him very amusing, but not much more.
Jan. 6, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
Why the constant changes? It's their version of the "Flip Flop Rule".
When you can't make up your mind you change it, over and over again. Eventually you get it right.

Must be trying to entice the younger guys into playing\staying by allowing more HR's than the next age bracket. Once hooked you in no matter, you stay the course.

I just feel it's a damn shame your penalized for it by\with fewer and fewer allowed HR's, as you age until you reach your real golden years (80) or have a sex change.
Jan. 6, 2009
Joncon
289 posts
""""At some point you've got to stop whining, crying & complaining""""


You do realize that complaining about complaining is complaining.....right?

When you say "Senior, nothing but a bunch of crybabies" you lose al credibility. The sampling you base your determination on is a very small one.

I am in the "STFU and play ball" camp but generally, these guys are simply expressing their opinions. When your awesome local league votes every year on their bat rules I would think that there is some discussion and some thought in the process.

My Idea is to use the balls as an equalizer. You could put a decent AA team against a Major+ team if the Majors had to hit a softer ball that would limit their ability to hit a lot of HR's.


It would never work though because it is too simple.
Jan. 6, 2009
Duke
Men's 60
702 posts
Joncon,

You are right that it is too simple. With the proper ball to equalize everything, you could actually have 2 levels of play, upper and lower divisions. Sometimes simple can be good. LOL!

Andy Smith,
Double Nickels,
Manager/Coach
Jan. 6, 2009
WOW
197 posts
EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This has been one of the best threads ever started on this site. Llama man, [I've been playing since 1996],you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO right when it comes to the so called "rules" the SSUSA staff applies when it comes to moving teams up. MONEY and INFLUENCE must be what comes into play. I don't follow many teams, but I do watch what happens to Lav Vegas 60"s,[only because we play them practally every time we enter a SSUSA tourn.]
Look at the # of big tourn. this team enters AND WINS before they get moved up. My team has been in a lower ranking for svseral yrs, then wins 1 tourn. [played 7 games of which 4 were decided by 1 run, we won 3, and we got moved up within 2 weeks!!!!!!!]. Since then we've played 3 tourn. at the higher ranking,[winning 1 game], and nothing was said.
I also know of other teams that are ranked way over their heads, keep getting beat, and have to jump through way too many hoops while pleading their case for being moved to a more competitive level.
The point is not to be considered "whinning" but to bring up the frustration felt by not only me but many of the other players and mgrs. I speak to. Again, great thread BUT nothing will be done.
Jan. 6, 2009
Wes
Men's 65
311 posts
Two points
1. Be carefull when you use the "team rating" list to count
teams. The 65AAA team I play on is listed three times.
We have changed our name the last three years. Same
player but different name.

2. MaverickAH---I know about fastpitch but tell me about this
modified ball---is it modified fastpitch or modiffied slowpitch????? are there any teams in the Louisville
area?????
Wes
Jan. 6, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
WOW 1996 that is 12 years probably half of what you knew 12 years ago has probably changed in some form or other or just no longer true.
Jan. 6, 2009
Duke
Men's 60
702 posts
Wes,

You are correct on both points, but number one is very correct. There are teams many teams listed on the team ratings that are dulpicates AND do not exist any longer.

Andy Smith,
Double Nickels,
Manager/Coach
Jan. 6, 2009
Mac21
Men's 65
35 posts
Sorry gentlemen...I used the team ratings to make my point about minority vs majority because it's the only source I have acess to...my apologies..but I still believe my point is valid.
This however brings up a legitimate question for SSUSA...can you clean up the team ratings by deleting the teams that don't exist any longer?
Jan. 6, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
Wes,
Look for a ISA league or tournament for that modified SP.
Jan. 6, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1264 posts
Just curious as to why the Las Vegas 60's don't get moved if what you say is true. Who do they have photos of?
Jan. 6, 2009
JamesLG
299 posts
Folks:

We keep talking about the divisions and how some teams are stronger than others in the same division but isn't this the way it has always been. The best players want to play on the best team they can in there area to compete with the best in the nation. I would be lying if I said I would not do the same if I had the talent. I have also heard guys say the major + and major guys don't play defense, the upper level teams I have watched play much better defense than most of the teams we play in AAA. I do agree that there should be some form of equalizer within the divisions but don't dummy up the ball or bat, that would change the game we all enjoy playing. I certainly don't hit a lot of HR's but I tell you this when I do hit one out and it is an out for our team it will take a lot of the fun out of this game. Call me a whiner or whatever you like but slow pitch softball is about having fun and hitting the balls as hard a far as you can.
Thanks:
James
Jan. 8, 2009
MaverickAH
59 posts
Wes: The term "modified" refers to the pitching motion. In fastpitch the arm motion is 360+ degs. & it allows the pitcher to pass his hip twice during the motion. In modified the pitching motion is restricted. The pitcher can bring his arm back but then he must come straight forward only passing his hip once before delivery. Additonally there are restrictions on his arm position during the delivery & he is not allowed to break his wrist (a practice known as "slinging" which is only reserved for "Class A" modified).

Pitching distance for men is 46 feet & a top level pitcher can attain speeds over 60mph. You will also see curveballs, changeups, knuckleballs, etc. In Class A ball, which allows itchers to "sling", a top pitcher can throw 70+ & be downright nasty!
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