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Discussion: PPR-Reno

Posted Discussion
June 2, 2009
SoCal'er
68 posts
PPR-Reno
Knowing that SSUSA monitors this board, I think giving examples of PPR interpretations by umpires may be helpful. I need to beleive that the PPR rule can some how be changed to take away most of the interpretation of the rule.
Both these examples happened in the same game.
Low ground ball w/moderate speed to pitchers glove side,pitcher makes attempt to field ball at GROUND level, ball jumps and hits him in wrist. Umpires rules dead ball out, reasoning, trying to protect himself. When I questioned how that could be, he just said "my interpretation".
Last one, hard ground ball through the box,not touched by pitcher, again ruled, dead ball out. I asked for the director and he over turned the ruling.
Umpires hate the rule, but it's on SSUSA to make sure they know it.
June 2, 2009
DoubleL10
Men's 65
811 posts
I suggest every manager make a copy of the SSUSA white paper concerning the application of the PPR and have it for reference when needed. In the above examples, neither should have been DBOs if the plays happened as described. Unfortuately, the ump can always claim "judgement call" and you're hosed.
June 3, 2009
the wood
1076 posts
LL:
Your suggestion is a good one in theory but, in practice, it has worked just as you stated in your last sentence.
The umpires as a group don't seem to like the rule and they like discussing it even less (during the game). From their end it truly is a 'no win' deal, IMO.
BW
June 3, 2009
turn2
484 posts
Guys,
I thought the ball had to hit the pitcher, not just go through the box. I can see if it hits the pitcher being a judgement call on whether he was in the box.
But, If I was told that the ball had to hit the pitcher to be considered an out. Hitting the pitcher seems like a pretty simple call to make.
Later,
Donnie
Turn Two
June 3, 2009
Hacker
Men's 65
41 posts
Situation:
Runner on first, less than 2 outs, batter hits a hard grounder to pitcher's right foot, pitcher attempts to make a back-handed grab but ball hits his glove and quickly bounces to the bag at 2nd where the 2nd baseman fields the ball, steps on the bag for the force-out but the umpire had already called “DBO” so no double-play was attempted.
Strangely, the mgr of the offensive team challenged the call?
I wonder if the “DBO” would have been called had the pitcher fielded the ball...probably not!

Although there were quite a few (around 10?) "shots" up the middle during our 5 games, this was the only one called.
June 3, 2009
BrianWin33
Men's 40
7 posts
I pitched in the 40 Masters division for my Team PTV...in our 1st single elimination game on Sunday morning I took a bullet one hopper off my right shin just above my ankle while in the box....it was Not ruled a DBO...even though I clearly tried to just defend myself...I collected myself and made the put out at 1st to end the inning. The ball was hit hard enough to give me a grapefruit sized swelling and bruised immediately....I remained in the game and iced it in between innings. Upires didn't even see if I was alright...

The umpiring was ok during the entire event....just wish they would have stuck with the correct interpretations of the rules for all the games...just not a select few..
June 3, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
I would suggest to all managers to review the rule with the umpire prior to the coin toss. Print it out and read it yourself so that you understand the rule and that review it with the umpire to avoid confusion and disagreements as to its application once the game starts.

PITCHER SAFETY RULE
.

OVERVIEW -
There are only three (3) very simple components to the "PSR". Two of them are factual matters and the third is an umpire's potential judgment call. The confusion on the part of Tournament & Field Directors, Umpires and Managers & Players is the result of over-complication of the rule interpretation.


FACTUAL MATTERS -
The umpire shall automatically apply the PSR and the resultant 'Dead Ball Out' ruling in the following factual circumstances:

• The PSR is applied only WHEN a batted ball actually strikes the pitcher (except on the arms - See 'Judgment Call' below). Near misses, balls batted sharply through the pitcher's box or in the vicinity of the pitcher, without striking the pitcher, do NOT result in the automatic application of the PSR. It is NOT our intent to remove the pitcher from the game defensively. The previous requirement that the batted ball be a line drive has been removed. Short hops striking the pitcher are now encompassed by the PSR. EXAMPLE: The PSR is automatically applied when a sharply batted ball strikes the pitcher's head, neck, torso or legs. Think of the "sheriff's pistol range" armless silhouette target as an illustration.

• The pitcher MUST be in the pitcher's box when struck by a batted ball as described above. The pitcher's box is a 2' by 6' rectangle with the front being the front edge of the pitching rubber (50' from home plate) and extending 6' back therefrom toward 2nd base. Being in the pitcher's box is defined as ANY part of the body being in contact with the pitcher's box or the lines defining the box. EXAMPLES: A pitcher leaning outside the box to deliver a pitch, with a foot down on or inside the lines of the pitcher's box is covered by the PSR. (Lines are in!) Conversely, a pitcher who delivers a pitch then loses contact with the pitcher's box by stepping to the side to assume a fielding position is not covered by the PSR. The same result applies when a pitcher delivers a pitch then retreats behind the pitcher's box, or to any other position in the field of play, for purposes of making a defensive play. The pitcher's box is the only 'safe haven' for application of the PSR.


JUDGMENT CALL -
The umpire shall make a judgment call as to the application of the PSR when any batted ball strikes the pitcher in the arms, including the glove.

• When a batted ball strikes the pitcher in the arm (including the glove), while the pitcher is, in the umpire's judgment, in the process of making a reasonable defensive play on the ball, the PSR does not apply. This is a 'play on' situation. EXAMPLE: Pitcher is in the pitcher's box and reaches out (or jumps up) in an attempt to field a batted ball, which strikes the pitcher on the forearm. This is a live ball and the result of the play stands.

• When a batted ball strikes the pitcher in the arm (including the glove), whether or not the ball ultimately strikes any other part of the pitcher's body, AND in the umpire's judgment, the pitcher had no opportunity to make a reasonable defensive play on the ball, the PSR applies and a resultant “Dead Ball Out” ruling shall be made. EXAMPLES: Pitcher is struck in the arm(s) while reacting to protect himself/herself or avoid being harmed by the batted ball. Pitcher makes a personal defensive reflex move and is struck by the batted ball on the arm and/or other part of the body.


SUMMARY -
Only two factual criteria determine the automatic application (or non-application) of the PSR. An umpire's judgment call, NOT subject to protest or appeal, is required when a batted ball strikes a pitcher on the arms, whether or not it then strikes another part(s) of the pitcher's body.
June 4, 2009
BrianWin33
Men's 40
7 posts
Bob 50...excellent posting of the PSR....I was clearly inside the box and struck....it was a no brainer...don't the umpires know this rule and when it applies? I saw lots of confusion on umpires faces when shots were going back up the middle...
June 4, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Bob50,
When we were playing the Baytown tournament before it got rained out and cancelled( This was a SPA tournament )I took the flip and ask the home plate ump if the PPR was in effect, he didn't even know what I was talking about ?
June 4, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2634 posts
Unless he had umpired SSUSA games he probably didn't know what it was. It's not used in SPA
June 4, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
BruceinGa,
Just what I wanted to hear, rules allowed in SSUSA AND NOT IN SPA,I sure have a hard time keeping up with all of this.Thanks for the help.How's the ball playing going ?
Take care, good luck.
June 4, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2634 posts
Ball is good. The 60's M+ teams are just as competitive as 55 and 50's!
Will you be in Dalton?
June 4, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Bruce,
Glad to hear all is well with you.We won't be going to Georgia, several of the players have a problem with SPA, We are going to the World in Phoenix and the Winter World in Vegas.Are you making those ?Moving to over 60 has been good, were playing pretty good and look to get a whole lot better.Take care and see you down the road.

Kenny
June 5, 2009
bprieve
17 posts
So far this year, we have had two "opportunities" for applying the hit pitcher rule.

First, a line drive was caught (in his glove) then dropped by the pitcher, after which he picked up the ball and started a double play. The ump called a dead ball out. Seems like the result of the play, when advantageous to the defense should alway prevail; the dead ball call should be delayed.

Second, a ball hit through the pitcher's box (with pitcher inside) was deflected off his glove. Ump said this was not a hit pitcher rule call, since the ball hit the glove. I didn't know that a pitcher making a protective move and touching the ball with his glove automatically made the rule inapplicable.
June 8, 2009
WOW
197 posts
Lost a game 22 to 21. Mid game, my player hits a ball up the middle. Never was touched by or hit the pitcher. Batter was called out and the run that had scored, was negated. I went to tourn. director and he told ump he was wrong. Ump tells me [after dr. leaves the discussion], he'll call it the way he wants. I go back to the dr. with that statement. He says if it happens again to let him know. What a bunch crap!
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