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Discussion: why is scoring down......

Posted Discussion
March 23, 2012
udaplaya
91 posts
why is scoring down......
sooooo, with all of the supposed change to the game mitigated by the senior composite, why is scoring so low or down? Now, one obvious answer might be the 5 run limitation, but i look at the scores of tourney games (checking the SSUSA and NCSSA websites)and one would wonder why all the fuss over the bats. i will admit that the bats have increased hr production for SOME players, but why is that not translating into increased scoring?

Anyone that played competitive ball "back in the day" would recall that the scores were routinely in the 20s and 30s, with the big boyz getting into the 30s, 40s, and above. Yet, the majority of scores in the senior game tend to be in the high teens or 20's.

one another issue, i do agree with the "why so many divisions within an 5 year age group" folks. The size of the field in many tourneys is ridiculous. Heck, "back in the day" (i like that phrase), we would cancel a tourney if they only had 4 or 5 teams, now some divisions are happy to have that many.

Oh well, food for thought...
March 23, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4395 posts
One might thing the better ratings and parings of brackets.
Both assn's have been doing a better job.
I like old school...
I honestly feel brackets with less than 4 teams really rated and age wise should be given choice to withdraw w\o consequence or continue.
Championship T games of any type are a joke like that, so you can bet I don't like the TOC that way.
Those championship T games other than say PHX, Reno and some easterners are the few that have most brackets full, but there are big exceptions.
It really doesn't give credence to a win for them especially if someone asks you who was in your bracket... Chances are you'll just say xxx number of teams meaning you played 5 games but neglect saying only one or two were actually in your bracket.
March 25, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
udaplayer-I was wondering when someone would notice that scores aren't incredibly high. Yes, the 5 run limit does take out that big inning, but we all have to face the fact that we ARE getting older and we cannot stop Father Time. I still believe the fact that most guys our ages just don't want to play anymore, and the bats are not even a consideration in their choice. 20 years ago how many seniors even played? I think it is remarkable where we are now. Some days we wake up and feel great and play well, and others we wake up and it is tough to get going, but we do. The bats help us compensate for some of this and still hit at a reasonably high level. What's wrong with that? (The last time I saw a pitcher get hit and have to come out of the game was 2 years ago-about 250 games ago. Wearing the gear is now an option, and even with reduced bats or balls that option would not go away. Pitchers know where the game is and there is no shortage of them. I think a few people are making this a bigger deal than it really is) Of course we aren't performing at the level we did 30 years ago. We are tired and slower, especially for that 5th and 6th game of a tournament. Injuries happen much easier than they used to. Yes, the age divisions are necessary because of diminishing skills. But, what is the alternative? Those of us that still play prefer getting out there to sitting on a couch spending all of our time blogging? I'd rather play a 4 or 5 team tournament and get some games in. taits-we have NO tournaments in our area. We have to travel to play. A four or five team tourney beats nothing at all. That's why I SUPPORT Senior softball.
March 25, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4395 posts
Webbie,
Since you din not define your city block area I'll tell you your wrong, there is senior ball in NM. Las Cruces has them every year. I think there are others in the state also.
I support them but more than willing to convey my opinions and any info I can relate to other players.
But Perhaps you like attending T's with only one or two other teams in your bracket, that is your choice or prerogative. Four or more is mine, that's all. Few teams to play is as bad as best out of 3 games or even 5. Your not getting your monies worth. That's all.
I'd agree on the 4 or 5 teams beats nothing at all. But for the 1,2,3 team brackets you might as well draw straws or flip a coin stay home and save the players money for a T with a better turn out.
It is what it is.
March 25, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
403 posts
Low number of tournament teams is not as much fun.
Went and played in Georgetown Tx Thursday and Friday with 3 teams in gold and 2 in silver. Not good. Would I prefer to stay home and sit on couch and eat patato chips. H--- NO.
We had a great time playing 6 games. Got sore as it is first tour of season. All seemed to have a good time.
Today bats are better, balls are worse,
Yesteryear balls were hot bats were 38oz of quarter inch alum.
Scores in yesteryear were 3-2 or 18-15 over and over where I played and the tournaments and leagues I played in.
We had 8 guys on our national team that could hit ball out of park, the limit was 3 hr's per game then out.
So scores were like today in my area of the world (Tulsa Ok)
March 26, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
taits-Las Cruces does-220 miles-3 hour drive, and Silver City does-200 miles, almost 3 hour plus drive through mountains. El Paso has-or had the Chili Pepper-usually 3 teams. Nothing in Albuquerque except Senior Olympics in Rio Rancho. I consider that travel-overnight stay.
March 26, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4395 posts
Webbie, My point was only about you saying: we have NO tournaments in our area."
They are just like my area many are closer about an hour but Reno, Vegas, so Ca, I'm looking at up to 9 hours on the road.
and for Reno check road conditions because they are currently working on both 50 and 80.
Maybe out paths will cross in Reno, it would be nice to put a face to messages.
Stay healthy.
March 26, 2012
Robo2
226 posts
I remember from younger years, softball scoring was always a thing of streaks. We would score 10 runs in one inning and none in the next. So yes the 5 run limit has an effect. Think about the times when a team scores 5 runs with either one or no outs? If unlimited runs per inning, those innings may turn the scoring issue; but it would also shorten the game due to playing time. I have always stated that if one wants true separation of team levels; allow unlimited homeruns at all levels. The game would be quicker (because the 5 run limit would be reached in less time) and the higher powered teams would move up more quickly.
March 26, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4395 posts
Robo2,
I seem to recall the assn's that still have somewhat 'unlimited' runs also use the mercy rule which can effectively end a game in 4 if a teams has a 'streak as you mention. Those mercy rules differ somewhat between assn's but are relatively close with regards to run difference after 4 or 5 for the most part. However I did play once in one where it was also used in 3 innings.
March 26, 2012
Omar Khayyam
1002 posts
Robo2, you make a good point about streaks and the limit put on by 5-run innings. A streak can be ignited by an error from the other team; by a line drive that gets past the outfielders; by your weakest batter cranking one over the head of an outfielder—suddenly the emotion is swelling and the streak is on!

But unless it is the open inning, that streak is terminated by five runs. Many times my team will have no outs, or perhaps its first out, with bases loaded when a single drives in the 5th run of the inning. Streak over.

Some of a team's most dramatic memories are when they score big, REALLY BIG in the open inning. My team put 21 runs on a better team in the top of the 6th (last inning) more than a year ago and we still talk about it. Teams don't have those same memories about innings with a 5-run max.
March 26, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
854 posts
The scoring wasnt down this weekend in Mesquite/St George, 25 to 35 runs was quite the norm for several teams in the Major division. Timberworks tossed up 105 in 3 games.
March 27, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
taits-when I made my decision to play M+ with GSF from Phoenix, travel was not an issue, because the Desperados traveled to every tournament we played anyway and most are the same tournaments. From Albuquerque, in two years, we played in Phoenix (6 tourneys, 6 hour drive or Fly), Tucson (2 tourneys, 6.5 hr drive), Pinetop (2 tourneys, 4 hr drive), Prescott (2 tourneys, 6 hour drive), Las Vegas (2 tourneys, 8 hr drive or Fly), Laughlin (7 hr drive), Denver (6 hr drive), Kansas City (Fly), El Paso (2 tourney, 4 hour drive)), Silver City (3 tourneys, 3 hour drive), Orlando (2 tourney, Fly), and Reno (Fly). I don't want to even calculate what I spent out of pocket. We did not play one tournament in Albuquerque. Albuquerque is our area and there are NO senior Tournaments. I am trying to work on it here, but we need at least one 4 field complex with 300 foot fences. We do not have that in a metro area of 900,000. Unbelievable.
I hope we do meet in Reno. I always enjoy meeting people in person who do care about the game and try to make it better rather than sitting on a couch tearing it down.
March 27, 2012
Robo2
226 posts
Omar,
I am in favor of the 5 run innings. It gets things moved along and the tournament on time. I am not in favor of the HR rule at any level. The HR is not that easy for me but I beleive putting a limit on it only masks the better team and prevents them from moving up to the next level.
Think about it, why is it necessary if we all want separation? I truely would like to know why it is in place. I also agree the unlimited inning provides the drama to the game and brings back those memories of fantastic finishes.
March 27, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Robo, what happened to the game "moving along" due to players making plays, and not contrived rules?
March 27, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4395 posts
Robo2,
5 per inning but for last one is only that, a game mover onward. Understandable given what it would take time or actually days needed, to put on a tournament with say 200 teams as some are plus or minus in many cases with unlimited runs and all as it used to be.
Still think the games are shortened too often even with the 5 run limits and perhaps even with the Hr limits. Game times I think average about 5-7 minutes per half inning as it is. Using the mid point of 6 per side or 12 minutes per inning it still doesn't allow a full 7 innings to be played. You loose at least one and far too often two innings you pay for to play*. *limited play.
More time on the clock is needed to get value on this issue. 5 runs per inning or 7 would even be sweeter, but how about a complete game of 7 innings.
i think we all have adjusted to the 5 per over the years.
March 27, 2012
Robo2
226 posts
I am sure this happens to many other teams; early in the game with nobody on or one on base an individual intentionally does not try for an HR because the team does not want to waste them. If unlimited, anyone can swing away anytime. Also, for those that may feel like the need to go middle to avoid hitting a long ball; this would also help. I realize I am sounding like a power hitter but I am not. I do pitch from time to time and I would rather the power hitters have a different target. I just don't understand this HR rule. If anyone can expalin why it should be in place, please do so. Not trying to cause any arguements, but would like to hear opposing points of view.
March 27, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4395 posts
How about; Those that can do, those that can't mandate. ouch.
I honestly miss the past in that respect. The limits and all. But back then it was different you played until it was over no time limits or runs other than maybe a mercy rule. But Business stepped in for a big opportunity and took it over, umps demanded shorter games, ie time limits, and run & hr rules were also established.
Forever evolving for better or worse just like the equipment.
As for middle, it is part of the field.
I pitch been hit many times and have hit many as well. It's just where I go. Nothing more. But have worn protection since age 46 when I took a shot to just above a knee. Ball came off a rock and changed direction. But now you either sign a waver or you are required to wear it. Evolution lol
March 27, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Scott, I believe "evolving" means moving forward, this game is just making changes. Many are not progress.

March 27, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
854 posts
Actually evolving means to develop, not necessarily to move forward.
And it is a form of progression in this case. Just not what some purists like seeing.
Like Scott wrote, "Forever evolving for better or worse".
In my opinion its still better then checkers.

Hockey gear and all.
March 27, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4395 posts
E-4\4
Thanks.
I'm not a purist but do like what ever is allowed. Would definitely like old school especially if you went to rules we had back then too. IE; which is basically no limits of any sort. But should keep the ratings and age brackets.
March 27, 2012
Olden Slow
Men's 65
182 posts
E4/E6 (John). I've seen you do both..I think checkers wearing hockey gear is your game :-o)
March 27, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
854 posts
Tom, have you seen that crowd I play checkers with? Thats why I wear the gear! =)
March 27, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Robo-I would like to take a crack at your question-I sincerely believe that the will to compete at the highest level a person can is missing in way too many players. Too many guys want to be a big fish in a small pond and intentionally play below their levels to do so, even if the opportunity is there to play at a higher level. It got so rampant here that as a member of the advisory board here in Albuquerque, I convinced the city to go to skill levels and limited home runs. We had a top league team masquerading as a fun league team and just destroying every team they played. Also, (and I qualify this with the belief that it also could be just getting older that creates this in some people), a lot of extremely good players have lost the 'highly competitive drive' that took them to the top and they just want to play for fun. Senior ball is quite different from 'kids' ball and needs to be treated differently to make it work.
March 28, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Webbie, you could say the same thing about the kids, which is why E seems so popular these days. Probably has been for quite a while. No one seems to want to play up, or move up.
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