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Discussion: Round robin seeding

Posted Discussion
July 26, 2012
local
128 posts
Round robin seeding
If you are playing in a round robin seeding game and you play a AA team and you are a AAA team you are at a disadvantage. Not because you have to give them 5 runs. It's because when they determine seeding it is based on head to head and then runs against. So you are punished ( can't think of a better word) for playing a lower divison team because when it comes to seeding you are already a plus 5 in the runs against before you even play.
July 26, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
how would you be at a disadvantage if eveyone in your AAA division played the AA division same amount? I could see this if say one AAA team played more AA teams than another one.. If eveyone plays the same teams then it should be the same 5 runs against for eveyone!
July 26, 2012
local
128 posts
Well that is what is going happen at Westerns this year. 2 AAA teams out of an 11 team divison will be playing one AA team. As a result of this 2 AAA teams will received 5 runs against them before they even play.
July 26, 2012
JBTexas
Men's 65
266 posts
Then it isn't a round robin, round robin you play everyone in the bracket, but I do see the problem.
July 26, 2012
local
128 posts
JB you are correct their mistake. They are seeding games for the purpose of seeding teams based on win loss record, head to head and runs against. They call it a(2)game Round Robin. There should be a way to correct this before next week.
July 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"They call it a(2)game Round Robin"

Kind of like how they call the West a nation?

I never knew softball needed its own language.
July 26, 2012
local
128 posts
Just so there is no misunderstanding. I don't care what they call it I just want to make sure the playing field is level for ALL teams. This is probably not the first time this has happened to a team. I have no problem giving a lower classification team runs. You have to over come the 5 extra runs to win your game. But when they consider run against, you get dinged anyaway because you played the lower ranked team.
July 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
So the runs against for seeding purposes will include the gift runs?
July 26, 2012
local
128 posts
Yep ! Maybe someone from SSUSA can explain this ?
July 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
What possible explanation could there be?

So could have shut out two teams, but my runs against will be 10?

July 26, 2012
swanny22
Men's 55
10 posts
When you have an uneven # of teams and combined divisions somebody will end up playing a lower rated team that others will not.IMO you are going to give up fewer runs too a AA than the AAA team even with the 5 runs.I think SSUSA does a good job of keeping things as equal as possible.It's not a perfect world boys play ball or stay home.
July 26, 2012
Olden Slow
Men's 65
183 posts
You gus worry about things that really don't matter. It's Senior Softball for cryin out loud..swanny has it right..Stay home if you don't like the rules that are put in front of you..Is is equal...maybe not..is it still fun...You bet your arse it is..
July 26, 2012
Olden Slow
Men's 65
183 posts
"GUYS" not gus...I can spell...Just can't type..
July 26, 2012
southernson
261 posts
Olden Slow,
You are speaking from the viewpoint of someone who obviously does not put up the $$$$ for the team tournament entry fee (which is now large enough for a bank loan),team transportation, etc. And someone who hasn't taken the 25 phone calls or made the 25 phone calls associated with going to a tournament. You didn't negotiate with the hotel, make the last minute changes....

And when you do that, when you put out 3-4K for a tournament....you want a LEVEL playing field for EVERYONE....that's all, and I don't think that's too much to ask.

SSUSA usually does correct things in time, but the BIG problem not addressed is there are far too many tournaments with far TOO FEW teams participating...and that's the real core issue that remains unsolved.





July 26, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1320 posts
Terry Hennessy will be at Aurora. In fact, he will be playing for the Sacramento Islanders 60's, the other team playing the AA team in the seeding rounds of the 60-Silver Division. Let him know your thoughts, and I suspect he will consider adding them to the SSUSA Rules Committee meetings agenda at the convention in December. That's where rules changes are made, as opposed to 'on the fly' mid-season or mid-tournament.

Your's is also a rather uncommon objection. This is the first time we have seen it. The norm for this type of complaint is: "Why can't WE play the AA team? Why do THEY get to play the weaker team(s) and we don't?"

P.S. - swanny22 hit it right on the sweet spot for the reason the equalizer runs are included in the final scores for seeding purposes.
July 26, 2012
Olden Slow
Men's 65
183 posts
southernson: You are correct in that assumption but no one forces you to play..I have no issue with a level playing field and I also think the people that put these events on do the best they can with what they have..Bottom line for me is..I want to play..I am new to Senior Softball after 15 years off and if I showed up to a tourney and found out that there were only Major/Major+ teams that we had to play with no 5 run rule (The team I play for is AA)..I would still go out and play. We would probably get our arses hande to us..But I would still play..I try not to worry about things I have no control over..For me personally I would not want to be a Manager..(Been there..Done that for many years in the 80's & 90's )...Nothing personal and we can agree to disagree..Tom
July 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Olden, it seems like the habit of many to just bend over and take what they get is part of what has senior softball in the shape it is in with such minimal participation for such large amount of money.
July 26, 2012
DCPete
242 posts
This problem would be minimized if they just used Run Differential instead of Runs Allowed. Using Runs Allowed doesn't fairly seed teams since a team that wins both their games by a score of 10 - 9 would be seeded ahead of a team that wins both their games 20 - 10.
Have never understood why it's done this way; the math isn't that tough & Run Differential is often the next tie-breaker anyway . . .
July 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Pete, runs allowed is often used so as to not reward teams for just running up scores. Not sure which way I stand on that, but I have seen that as the rationale many times.
July 26, 2012
Olden Slow
Men's 65
183 posts
Gary19::: I understand what the point is..But for me personally..I get a call or e-mail from my Manager..He tell us where and when..The cost for me is usually minimal..Except for Vegas and Reno..But after all the years off, I am just glad that I am playing...I'm neither good enough or smart enough to worry about the particulars...:-o)
July 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
And for you that is good, but I am sure you know the cost for many can be quite a bit more than "minimal". And it is that "particular" that many have to be worried about.
July 26, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1320 posts
DCPete - Best record and Head-to-head result (if any) are the obvious first choices. We apply "Runs Allowed" next, rather than "Run Differential" on a pure sportsmanship basis.

We prefer to reward your team for shutting your opponent down defensively rather than having you batting in the top of the 7th in a game already decided as to who the winner will probably be and hearing someone say: "Wow, we can really help our seeding position if we roll up another 20 or 25 runs here in the open inning!" If a team is going to benefit from such a scenario, it will benefit as only the last reort tie breaker prior to 'coin toss'.

As an additional reason, putting run differential first would result in teams never agreeing to the flip-flop rule. With runs allowed, that objection to flip flop vanishes, because the trailing team is going to bat anyways in the last inning.
July 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Flip-flopping should never be done in any tournament that uses runs of any nature as seeding criteria. It is just creates unnecessary potential advantages and disadvantages to runs allowed and the seeding process.
July 26, 2012
Olden Slow
Men's 65
183 posts
Gary..My biggest cost is in Shoes..I wear mine out because I always run for myself :-o)..I'm not disputing anyones point..Just giving my own..
July 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Gotcha!
July 26, 2012
local
128 posts
In regards to the post from SSUSA. We prefer to reward teams for shutting opponents down defensively rather than batting in the top of the 7th. The team giving up 5 runs because of who they are playing cannot shut a team down.
Yes I have seen games where 5 runs or less have been scored and I have seen seeding that was determined by one run. Why not remove the "gift" runs, if they make a differnce, when it comes to seeding.

And for the others out there that think we should stay home if we don't like it. That is not the point. We will continue to support SSUSA and all that they do. Sometimes even good things need to be tweaked a little bit.
July 26, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1009 posts
Local, I guess at the end of the day it's all about seeding, and it's not going to win you the Tourney! You will most likely have to play the best teams in the tourney at some point and beat them.. I have had top seed a few times on teams and have dropped the first two games in championship round.. It's nice to be top seed but it's not the most important thing.. Most important thing is to get hot in championship round! run against are the third on the depth chart on seeding, so most likely it won't matter that much if at all! IMO
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