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Discussion: stop all the whining

Posted Discussion
Aug. 31, 2013
phantomf4j
19 posts
stop all the whining
I know not everyone will agree with my POV. That's OK, this is America. But I am tired of all the complaining in this country about athletes getting hurt, about bullying, about how to change things so that everyone gets a trophy, etc. What total bullbutter.

I was bullied in school. You probably were too. It was a "right of passage." Heck, when I was a freshman, seniors would hassle us every day. It was how it had always been. But now, if someone says "boo" to little Johnny, his psyche has been damaged....give me a break.

Now we are changing time honored rules in all sports so that the players do not get hurt. Football is a violent game. Softballs are hit at amazing speeds. There are no pads in basketball, and do not tell me basketball is not a contact sport. If you do, it is clear you have not played competitive basketball.

My point is this: Here we are seniors and God has blessed us so that we are able to participate in sports this late in life. When I was a kid it was unheard of for a 70+ year old guy to still play organized sports. Most of them were already in the rocking chair or in "homes" somewhere. But we can still play and that is fortunate for us all. But, while safety is important, let's not change the rules of the game so that the player with no reaction time (that should porbably not be out there)does not get injured.

I don't play sports I cannot compete in because I would get hurt and slow the game down for those who can play. But the rules should not be changed to accommodate my weaknesses. Am I nuts? Does anyone understand what I am trying get at? Have we become a nation of pansies or what?
Sept. 1, 2013
Fabe
Men's 50
202 posts
I remember drinking water from a hose, playing football in the mud, having to compete to make the baseball, basketball and football teams I wanted to play on and I came out healthy! However, we live in different times....just look at our great nation and where it is at today!! Aloha, Fabe
Sept. 1, 2013
JT9
32 posts
Bob Dylan said it best....."The Times They Are A-Changin. And if I might add......faster than we are able to keep up.
Sept. 2, 2013
HJ
Men's 70
414 posts
Minor point, many basketball players in fact wear protective clothing or armor. The compression clothes with raised squares is armor.

Every generation thinks the next one is more wussy. In 1906 or so Teddy Roosevelt saved football which was about to be banned by convening a meeting and changing the rules. No more flying wedges which killed many.

What you are not taking into consideration is that players are bigger, faster, stronger and in better shape, but the human brain hasn't changed and is obviously subject to damage by blows to the head.

If we were playing SB with wooden bats there would be lots less talk about accommodating rules. Technology in many ways necessitates rule changes.

Bullying and everyone getting a trophy are not issues based on new technology. Those are societal norm issues and everyone has their opinion.

With our grandchildren with try not to praise the results but the effort. We know if they persevere the results will follow, but praising results can lead to being satisfied and stopping hard work. No trophies for everybody, it sends a dishonest message and the wrong message.


Sept. 2, 2013
JT9
32 posts
Intrinsic values are gone. As a society we are proficient in the art of adaptation even to the point of acting or looking like a fool.

Tell the mom that her daughters death because of bullying was a "right of passage" Survival of the fittest I guess...very confusing logic.

While the human brain hasn't changed, our knowledge of its workings has......we should all be greatful for that.

Spend some time with the disabled and you will understand the value of that trophy/ribbon just for taking part.

Part of the problem with society today....we need a more open and diverse way of thinking.

Sept. 2, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
JT9 that's an interesting take, especially the last line. Since senior softball is part of our society, a very big part for some, I'm curious about something. Could you give examples of what would make up an open and a more diverse way of thinking that would help make senior softball a better game?
Sept. 2, 2013
HJ
Men's 70
414 posts
Intrinsic values are not gone. For SB playing hard, running out all hits, keeping your mind in the game. For SB these are intrinsic and valued for those who know. Don't cite exceptions as the rule. For the mentally challenged a ribbon for participating may have value and a positive effect. Look at youths playing baseball. By 12 many have quit because they realize they won't make the travelling team and can no longer compete with the better players. They understand exactly what a ribbon for participating means. However some persevere and later thrive. Michael Jordan didn't start until I believe 12th grade and was cut in 10th grade. A more open and diverse way of thinking may be a political approach or societal approach but it is not germane to this discussion about sports.
Sept. 2, 2013
JT9
32 posts
From a global perspective intrinsic values are gone as exhibited even on this board many times.

Don't kid youself, many of those disabled I have worked with over the years know exactly what that ribbon means.

Nothing political about having a diverse and open way of thinking. You proved my point by citing it is not germane to this discussion.

Making softball a better game is very subjective. What is better for one may not be the same for someone else. I enjoyed the game when I played but I believe I kept it in the proper perspective.......it was a recreational game to me and nothing more. I would offer what has been offered many times on this board.....a start would be to combine Major and Major plus. Won't happen as long as the organizations are financially solvent. Not really open or diverse in scope just common sense, another value lacking today.

Sept. 2, 2013
DCPete
228 posts
ISSA combined Major+ with Major this year & it's not really working. In their recent Worlds there were 94 teams & only 14 of them were in the new M+/M bracket.
The Major teams are dropping down to AAA so they don't have to play the M+ teams & the AAA teams are dropping to AA so they don't have to play the Major teams.
Some intrinsic values probably haven't changed; most teams still don't want to show up if they're overmatched and likely to be drilled.
Sept. 2, 2013
JT9
32 posts
That while it might be a realistic point of view it is not absolute. Or is it just plain old common sense? Maybe I should give people more credit than I presently do. We could dig deeper but some things are better left unsaid.
Sept. 2, 2013
Wayne 37
188 posts
I want to hear phantomf4j's take on fraternity hazing also. To answer your question, you are nuts.
Sept. 3, 2013
HJ
Men's 70
414 posts
JT9, you have a political viewpoint that society should be more open and diverse. Fine. But it is not germane to a discussion on a SSUSA website which is for very competitive older athletes. SSUSA players are analogous to the 12 year olds who make the traveling team.

Your pov is perhaps applicable to coed leagues or rec leagues or special leagues for special needs people. So please get off your pulpit and realize your worldview is just not relevant here. And don't jump to the conclusion that this is coming from someone to the right of Attila The Hun. Read my posts. I keep my personal politics out of this. This is a competitive softball site. Please get real.

Phantom, thank you for your service. On the other end of the spectrum
you are as out there as JT9. Most thinking competitive oder softball players are realistic enough to know that as long as senior bats are used and older players are bigger stronger and better conditioned than older SB players in the past, some accommodation is necessary.
Sept. 3, 2013
tattooball
602 posts
I don't know which issa tourney you are talking about but Manassas was a very good tourney. We won it as a major team and played both major+ teams and beat them. They did not have the best games they've played.
The other major teams all did well against them also, some won some didn't. It was 2 major teams in the finals, with a major+ team 3rd.
Sept. 3, 2013
JT9
32 posts
HJ, stating that society needs to be more diverse and open is not a political view at all. That line of thinking crosses all spectrums of the world we live in......even the softball community. Is not the softball community part of society?

My point of view is applicable to all facets of the competitive world.

You are correct that as the technology surpasses the playing ability of the participants accomodations are necessary. If this doesn't happen the event usually tends to exist.

No pulpit at all and I truly understand what this board is.

I challenge you to get real, take the blinders off and remove the hand from in front of your face, apply open a diverse thought into your softball world and strive to initiate change to a game that appears to need some help.

Again, let us take baby steps and combine major and major +. We all know that most major teams could compete with the major+ teams. As least most competittive softball players I know would agree.
Sept. 3, 2013
Fabe
Men's 50
202 posts
JT9,
You have many great concepts, unfortunately many times concepts + humans do not equate to balance! Will you be competing at the Vegas Worlds? If so I believe you will enjoy the experience! Getting to meet many new people, playing on nice fields and competing at a high level...now that's softball. I like to keep things simple, I play softball and the various activities I continue to do because I enjoy it. When it becomes a burden or not fun to be part of I will move on! Take care and stay healthy. Aloha, Fabe
Sept. 3, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Jt9, I am on a Plus team and I think just merging plus and major is a STUPID idea.

It seems to only be mentioned as a remedy by Plus supporters.

I agree with SSUSA in keeping major and plus apart as much as possible.

The dynasty Plus teams play softball in a different mindset then almost all Major teams.

If plus wants to earth their program they must come to the table with ideas to bring their top teams back into a more balanced level with the average Major team....which.... Has not happened to this date.

Sept. 3, 2013
JT9
32 posts
Fabe,
The problem being...concepts and humans combined in a cohesive fashion can work. It takes vision and a willingness to take chances, explore and assess. I have played and enjoyed the experience all over the country. Unfortunately, four colon surgeries (two botched) has sidelined me for awhile.

Tim,
When you place a benchmark as runs per inning and combine teams that consist of the athletic talent I have seen over the years I would disagree with you. Will there be those that are what may be the elite, sure there will be..... that is the beauty of competition.. I think you are selling your fellow senior players short.

Good luck with your balance issue....just not the way competition is supposed to work. The associations have done a great job just to keep the sport solvent by allowing the run benchmark balance, extra player and runs.. Keeps them coming back.

Enjoy the rest of your season!


Sept. 3, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Major and Major+ can easily be combined by playing 5 runs an inning and 1-up HR rules, just as was done in the NCSSA HOF tournament. Every game was close and competitive and all the games outcomes could have gone either direction.
Sept. 4, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
I was in the hall of fame tourney and NO all the games were not close.

Some scores looked close because the strong plus teams were home team. Which definitely is something SSUSA has to figure out how to put into their rating/reclass Matrix.

Our MTC 50 team won one game against another just bumped to Plus team.

We lost every other game against Plus teams we played.

The Warriors (a very good major team) did not win a game.

Merging the two divisions makes no sence at all...all it will do is push down Major teams to AAA.

Plus has problems and will continue to flounder until the dynasty groups of players can be separated a little to entice the bumped major teams to stay up.

If Joey (just pulled out as a random name) and his group of always dominating their plus age group want to stay together after winning events that would move them up in every other Division...I say allow them to stay together and play major in the next you best age group... If they want to have a Plus team in the division they just dominated...limit them to six or seven players... Every other Division only allows you to return with 3...so I don't want to hear the crying about returning with 6 or 7!
Sept. 4, 2013
tattooball
602 posts
Tim is your team a major team or plus team. Are you against it because you can't win or can't compete?

Player for player we did not have the best players in Va but that day we had the best team. We played hard for each other and played as a team, that is why we won. Sometimes team unity can overcome and beat teams that have better players. One thing I can say is everyone on the team looked forward to beating the plus teams or at least trying to.
Sept. 4, 2013
usmc0311
31 posts
There was only one plus team in Va. And we went 1 and 3!! I can tell you we weren't the best team there!! So sometimes they move up the wrong team!!
Sept. 4, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Tattoo, we are a team that came in third in last years Major Worlds in Vegas and got bumped.

We are probably a tweener...

last year we were a little above average Major team that did not win anything.

We are going to this years Plus world to see how it works out?
Sept. 5, 2013
tattooball
602 posts
Sportscenter and Veltre/enr. Mid lantic had the best team there they just had an off weekend.
Sept. 5, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Ok, EVERY game was not close, "just" 10 out of 12 on Saturday were a 3 run difference, 1 was by 6 and you guys got shelled in a game against GSC. Don't know why Sunday games were not listed.

My point was that the rules they played with like the 1-up HR rule equalized the biggest concern of why Major can't compete with Major+ ... power, when in fact can be done.
Sept. 5, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Do you know who was home team. As an example the final score in our loses to Legends and MTC55 were not as close as the final score. The 55 didn't bat in the last inning and the legends only needed one run in the bottom of the last...their lead off hitter hit a solo to win it...

Again...final scores are meaningless unless because it doesn't take into account who is home or visitors.

If anyone is to judge teams based on the final score it should be average runs per out. Not inning
Sept. 5, 2013
donll
55 posts
Tim,
You’re being silly again. Why would you average runs per out when the rules say you can only score 5 runs per INNING. Those are the rules. And as Jaywood points out the 5 runs an inning always keeps it close. The rules in Senior Softball are designed to keep games close, much like t-ball. For example after 4 innings of play the score is 20 to 20. One team has made 0 outs and the other team has made 8 outs. The game can’t be any closer and the outs don’t matter. Are you suggesting that if the next inning is the open inning and the team with 8 outs wins it 27-26 that they somehow loose because they made more outs? Where do you come up with this… “logic”? Just silly.

Also, can you identify for everyone the “dynasty” team that is “ruining” 50 major plus?

Sept. 5, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
There certainly is no "dynasty team" currently at the 50 Major+ level.
Sept. 6, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
There are no dynasty group of playering winning multiple rings year after year in the AA, AAA, and Major programs for sure..

And....all those Divisions don't face the same problems Plus is facing in every age group.

Do you want to know the difference between the floundering Plus Divisions and everyone else....in all the other Divisions groups of players don't get to stay together and play year after year Sunday afternoon at the World Finals.

I like to think letting Plus fall a part would be ok because of the ring collectors...then I think about all the teams that get bumped to Plus year after year and break up and I say...Waite a minute...there has to be a better way.

That's why I suggested the only six or maybe seven Plus champions on a plus roster rule..you see...I believe turning over the top of a Division every year is a good thing. It's proven.

As it is....all of this has very little effect on me playing softball.....It's just one weekend of the many softball weekends I can play. Winning a world means nothing to me.

But...again...I just think its obvious year after year that the current Plus system is failing....
Sept. 6, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Jawood, there currently isn't a Plus program..

.there is no there, there.

Teams flying out to play one, two, three team brackets is useless.

Maybe you can start listing all those teams that have stayed together after getting bumped to Plus....

If you don't agree with my view...here is your challenge....can you name another reason why more bumped teams seem to stay together up till the Plus Division bump? I say it's because the jump from Major to Plus is to large.
Sept. 6, 2013
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
All points are welcome and good. Some may be silly, but are welcome. I will say that the jump from Major to Major Plus may or may not be too large, but rather a waste of time to play tournaments with such a small group of teams. Better to meet half way between each other at a park, and play 2 out of 3 and have lunch.

Andy Smith
55/60 Major
Sept. 7, 2013
phantomf4j
19 posts
Wayne37, you asked me to respond to college hazing and I will. This is a softball site and this will be my one and only response on the subject. Hazing is one of those things that will continue whether you and I approve or not. It is part of "being accepted" into many organizations. I DO NOT approve of any initiations or actions that cause serious injury or put anyone in a life-threatening situation. But, my gosh, folks, nowadays if Johnny gets called "Butthead" he goes home crying and mommy calls it bullying. That is my point. Heck, all of us went through school being called names. Sometimes that was meant to poke fun and sometimes it was just having fun period. But we have become a nation of intolerance where even the slightest poke becomes a huge bullying tactic. I correlate it to the 70's when the sexual harassment laws went crazy. If a guy said "Good Morning, you look nice today," he could be charged with sexual harassment. What a mess. It took 15-years for our nation to get over that nonsense. Now the trend is bullying. Good grief, if Johnny can't handle name calling how will he survive in the real world? That's my 2-cents and I will discuss softball from now on.
Sept. 7, 2013
JT9
32 posts
phantomf4j, I think that is a great idea on your part to just stick with talking about softball!!!!!!!!!
Sept. 7, 2013
bkb555
83 posts
this episode of South park is what has happened to our society..."Sarcastaball"...nothing wrong with safety in sports but they take it to another level

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s16e08-sarcastaball

here is episode above
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