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Discussion: Remedy for Altered Bats

Posted Discussion
Feb. 27, 2007
Tater50
336 posts
Remedy for Altered Bats
Cheaters are going to cheat & you can bet they are already juicing the U2 & others. Here is the remedy: SPA, SSWC & all the other Senior Groups have enough pull to have bat companies to supply bats for tourneys; therefore; have all ounces of a Senior Bat brand in the dugouts with special markings for each tourney.
The player is going to buy their bat anyway to practice with, so the companies are not going to lose sales.
Here is the poll: if you really want to stop alterations, will you add your name in agreement to have the SSAssociations to supply bats?

1. John W. "Tater" Hayes; 56 years old
Feb. 27, 2007
Gary Heifner
248 posts
I disagree with you that people are going to buy bats to practice with. I would use one of my old ones. I would never buy a bat if I knew the bat of my choice would be there for me at every tournament. I am much more for a complete and total "LIFE TIME" ban from all associations. The cheater buys a bat, alters it and uses it while fully knowing it is a total violation of the rules.
Feb. 27, 2007
Tater50
336 posts
Gary: lifetime bans only stop alterations when the cheater is caught; supplying bats now, eliminates the cheater bats immediately.

John W. Hayes
Feb. 27, 2007
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
I put a cuff on each one of bats so I can hold the bat with just 2 fingers and "in theory" extend the length of my bat and increase my power. I doubt that all players would want to use a bat cuff. It is just a personal preference. Therefore, I wouldn't be in favor of this rule. I feel that just the threat of a lifetime ban would deter most people from bringing an altered bat to a tournament. There is technology out there that allows for something (a bat) to be scanned to determine wall thickness and the presence or absence of a rod in the inside of a bat. Maybe it is time for associations or bat companies to invest in this type of equipment and make it a requirement at any and all major tournaments.
Feb. 27, 2007
Tater50
336 posts
Lefty: I have been playing since 99; I can count on one hand suspensions that I have read about that have been handed down. Lifetime suspensions.....great, but how often are offenders caught. History dictates: NOT often!!
Feb. 27, 2007
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
Here we go again. First of all, are there really that many bat cheaters in Senior softball? I personally doubt it. Why would a Senior player need to use an altered bat when you can swing the U2 and the Senior Combat? Second, how are you going to get the bat companies to supply free bats to all the associations? It's not going to happen. The associations already have rules in effect to deal with bat cheaters. Let's let them apply them. The real solution to the percieved problem is for the bat companies to make tamper proof bats. It can be done.
Feb. 27, 2007
Tater50
336 posts
Yes here we go again; the main reason for the post is that SPA & SSWC will suspend a manager if a player is caught cheating. I coached & paid for most of the entry fees for 2 years. Unless you have coached, then you do not know the significance of such a suspension.
SSB needs more teams: I was thinking of coaching/sponsoring another team, but this puts a dampener on that idea.
If you disagree, you disagree. No problem; free speech.
As far as bat companies: I did not vote for the U2, but it became law, so I go with the rule. What has happened since then: Combat & Rip-It have introduced models; there is a possibility that if this rule were applied, that more bat companies would come out with Senior models & there may be more bats available for any associations.
Even though bats would be supplied: players would still buy their own bats. I practiced with Senior players today: one had 4 U2's, the others had 2-3 a piece.
No one has a clue HTG how many cheaters there are, but this would eliminate the problem.

John W. Hayes

Feb. 27, 2007
azsenior
92 posts
I took a U2, painted it yellow, put Rip It stickers on it and no one has caught on yet....
Feb. 28, 2007
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
To azsenior: Did you do that to use it in a league that bans the U2? Your self esteem must really be poor if you have to prop up your ego by cheating.

To Tater 50: As you said, "no one has a clue how many cheaters there are". So again I say, I think it's a very, very small number of people and does not warrant making sweeping changes. Let's let the associations police the matter.
Feb. 28, 2007
E. Ness
122 posts
Don't get me wrong with what I am about to post. I am against the rule that is now in place but this is not going to work.

Let take the next big SSUSA tournament which is Reno. It is played over two weeks and at least three 4 diamond complexes are in use all the time. That means the SSUSA would have to supply at min 15 senior bats per field if you are going to do this the correct and fair way. They would have to have 5 U2 advance and 10 senior Combats. Now add to that not everyone like either of those bats and may want to use a USSSA or even an old U2. So at best you are looking at each diamond having 20 bats.

So that is 240 bats at least. (You have to be fair and have each bat in each weight at each field because just as soon as you don't you will have problems) Which means the SSUSA is asked to spend at least $24,000 in bats for that one tournament and that is if they can get the bats for $100 a piece. You also might as well add to these numbers another $2000 for back up bats because everyone knows the U2A breaks like glass. Then add to this the problem of those teams and players who have to use these bats first before they are broke in those who like knob cuffs, grip and rips, and taped handles. Boy, I can hear the complaints now. Hell we can't even get a new ball every game so how are we going to get these bats?

Tater your heart is in the right place but the idea will not work. I do agree that suspending the manager is stupid and another way should be found but supplying bats to all fields at every tournament will not work.
Feb. 28, 2007
azsenior
92 posts
Hit the gap; just kidding guy, thought I would put some humor into this....heavens, I don't even own a yellow bat or play in tournaments. Just our ASA senior ball. I am happy to say that in our east valley league I have not heard of anyone using a alter bat, not even once that I konw of.
I would like to try one those yellow bats or even a U2 sometime, yet if won't help me at all - stil can't hit....
Feb. 28, 2007
terryspears
Men's 55
38 posts
Just a thought. But, wouldn't it be less expensive to have the ability to detect altered bats at each tournament rather than to supply, and replace bats in each dugout. The time factor to check all bats might be a problem, but I'm sure there's some smart guy/gal out there who can overcome this small problem.
Feb. 28, 2007
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Eliot,

I donít see why they would need to supply that many bats for each field. Everyone is using Mikens or Combat Seniors, so why not have three of each (26, 28, 30 oz.), and have them available on a rack behind the ump. The bats would be assigned to the field in a blind draw to negate someone choosing certain bats for the field they are playing on. If you need to have your own bat, you could have it certified at the Mgrís meeting using one of the fabled machines. WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!
Feb. 28, 2007
Longball12
23 posts
What about the bats that we as players have already bought and paid for? I'm not gonna just put my personal bats away and used special tournament bats only, I have to much money invested in bats:

(2)SENERGY +'s- $300 each
(1)SENERGY 2- $300
(2)MIKEN U2- $200 each
(1)SENIOR COMBAT- $200
(1)ASA STEALTH- $350

******GRAND TOTAL-$1850.00

I don't know what the answer is but it's not useing special tournament bats only!!!!!

Just my 2 cents worth!!!!
Feb. 28, 2007
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Are your bats end-loaded or extra end-loaded? The supplied bats would have to be like the ones that we currently use.
Feb. 28, 2007
E. Ness
122 posts
Ken,
To be fair you would have to supply bats in all weights. The Combats come in a balance and End Loaded model in these weights; 26,27,28,29, and 30. So that means you need at least 10 of those and the U2 comes in 26, 27, 28, 29, and 30. How are you going to tell a guy who uses a 30EL he now must use a 28 or 29? Can you picture the complaints? I can.

But lets say you go with the 9 bats at each field because that is what it would have to be then the price tag on that for the Reno tournament would be at least $10,800 and that is saying you get the bats at $100 a piece. Add to that the back ups needed and you are still looking at a $12,000 price tag. This still does not address the knob cuffs and other items guys like. The machine is a good idea but then again it will kick out bats that are well used and with this program that could be a lot of bats

We have addressed this before and I still believe we should let the associations weed out the altered bat users. I agree that supending the Manager is not a good rule but it may not be as bad as the NEW USSSA RULE which is even worst.
Feb. 28, 2007
Longball12
23 posts
What happens when the, lets say the senior combat breaks? They put in a brand new one thats not broke in, they take about 100 hits to break in. How do you break it in at a tourney. Sorry the idea of tourney bats sounds good but it won't work. The thickness divice or something like it sounds good to me. You just have each team show up a little earlier to have there bats checked along w/checking their ID's, not a big deal to me.
March 3, 2007
Tater50
336 posts
Guys: not saying this is the total answer; but when we all put our minds together, we can come up with solutions. Since I have posted on this & other boards; some replies have already indicated that bat companies are starting to sponsor tourneys; maybe, it will catch on.

I have used the same bat for 4+ years; bought 17 or more of them; have it taped to my liking; but if bat sponsored tourneys would cut out the altering & put players on an even playing field.............I am for it. $500+ for a 3 day tourney is a lot when you play 8-10 a year.

John W. "Tater" Hayes
March 3, 2007
bogie
Men's 55
154 posts
I respect the opinions you guys express, but in SSUSA or senior ball offering the Ultra2 for use, I wonder how much cheating can be done. I mean the Ultra is the ultimate bat, better than any titanium I have hit. I just don't think you could get much improvement on that bat. I am curious as to why you think there would be many players trying to "doctor" an Ultra2.
Now in ASA or tournaments that do not allow an Ultra2, I think that painting the Ultras is a huge problem and could understand effortst to curtail that... But it just seems to me that few would deem it necessary to improve on the almost perfect bat...how much more performance is possible...and you would sacrifice they already compromised durability.
I think many hitters like the idea of having a personal bat...a favorite or lucky stick that lets superstition play in the equation.
You probably play alot more senior ball than I...has there been alot of accusations concerning the Ultra2 and doctoring of it? What enhancements do they do that are of the biggest concern?
Ken Van Bogaert
Roberts 50 Major
March 3, 2007
jim16
Men's 65
173 posts
The two altered bats that were caught in Seattle were bats that were definitely altered but neither gained the an advantage to the hitter. By making the Ultra II and Senior Combats legal, bat doctoring should stop. The Ultra II can be rebalanced to give a very slight edge to the hitter but it can easily be detected. I can tell if an Ultra II is doctored just by picking it up, I dont have to see it. I can tell blindfolded. By making these bats legal, bat doctoring should be eliminated. If you alter one of these bats to try and gain an advantage, you aren't very bright.
Go to the flat bellied tourney with ASA rules and just watch the fighting about bats. My hat is off to SSUSA and SPA. We have the best rules, why try to change them.
March 4, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bogie-
The best way to doctor an Ultra 2 is to remove
or lessen the counter weight they placed in the handle
which when done, makes it end loaded
and lands it in Grey Ultra'ville.
We faced a couple of those I'm willing to bet
in Vegas last year and we prevailed but I saw some
monster shots by guys with just decent swings.
After all these years when I guy goes 350 to 400 feet
you can see something in his swing that's getting him that distance, ie. bat speed, turn into the ball, whip, raw strength, etc.
When regular cuts get you maximum distance
even with an Ultra 2, it's suspicious to me.
When I was with the Old A's some years ago
in a tournament in Palm Springs where we used the Grey Ultra everyone on the team was going out the yard
routinely and that wouldn't happen with the Ultra 2.
I say lifetime ban for the player and manager
for anyone caught using an illegal/
altered bat like loading the end of an Ultra 2.



March 5, 2007
Conman13
Men's 50
5 posts
Ken,

You know something is wrong, when guys you have played with and against for years ... are using the "same" U-2 and the same 44/375 ball we have hit for years, month in and month out, suddenly out of nowhere start hitting the ball 50 feet or more further than ever before. I find it hard to believe the bats have not been shaved.

Conman

March 6, 2007
lazer larry
Men's 50
96 posts
If there is a machine that can make a determination that a bat is legal, without damaging them, then require the bat manufactures to pool together and purchase this unit and ship it to all the tournys. If they reject this than outlaw their bats. Whichever company or companies steps up to the plate( no pun intended) will be the company to capitalize on bat sales. The almighty dollar will provide the answer. Larry Vogel akaLazer Metro Coors Lite 50 Major
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