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Discussion: Not Playing Seeding Rounds

Posted Discussion
Sept. 28, 2004
Michigan Vet
Men's 55
229 posts
Not Playing Seeding Rounds
Is it really fair to let a team skip the seeding rounds and take losses for those games? Everybody else had to play games on Thursday and Friday but one team. In my opinion (and this is just my opinion) if you can't play the complete tournament don't show up!! By the way this is not sour grapes because I do not play for Pine Knob!! I say congradulations to Kellys for winning the tournament, but I think it is a little tainted!!
Sept. 28, 2004
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
It isn't fair to allow a team to play in a tournament if they haven't played their seeding games. I thought the rule was that you had to play in the seeding rounds to play in a world tournament. It appears that the assoication's desire to collect a tournament fee exceeds the need for a team to play in the seeding game. I know the idea is to give teams the ability to play at least 5 or 6 games if they travel long distances but most teams goal is to win a world. I know our team went to Vegas with 13 players and we suffered 2 key injuries in the early games and it cost us an opportunity to do better. I believe we finished 5th in the majors and our only consolation was that we sent the team that didn't play the first day of the seeding games home. When we played in the SPA World this year they didn't allow a team to play after they missed the seeding rounds. I believe most teams want to use Mikens and would prefer to play in the SSWC but not if the rules or ratings are changed in the middle of the tournament.
Sept. 28, 2004
Sweet P
Men's 60
168 posts
The teams that missed all or part of their seeding games were penalized, and placed last in their brackets. So in reality they had to play tougher schedules. To Bob50 I say, I hope to see you at the LVSSA Worlds.
Sept. 28, 2004
softballhero
8 posts
sweet p, the problem is that the teams not playing 4 seeding game didn't have to battle the heat starting on thur. they come on friday and play 2 games so are a little more rested for the rest of the tourney than the teams that were there on thurs to play,this also goes for kelly's in the major+ div. i say if u can't make it for the whole tourney don't come.or how would u like to have played 4 games on friday for seeding. now go ahead and tell me how u were at a disadvantage by only playing 2 games friday.
Sept. 28, 2004
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Sweet P,

My name is Bob Schulz. I play on the Chicago Classics Red. We aren't going to play LVSSA but will be in Ft. Myers in November. Feel free to look me up to discuss this further. Do you play for West Coast?
Sept. 28, 2004
sliplayer
Men's 60
70 posts
the real problem is why do we have 4 day tourney's? Besides the obvious reason of $$$$. It's really tough for some people to get away from work for a 4 daystourney. Don't tell me it's because we are older because we played 4 straight games on Saturday afternoon at the hottest times.
Kelly's won the Major Plus because they are a good team not because they didn't play on thursday, however I do agree everyone should make all efforts to make all games just don't think we need 4 day tourneys.
Sept. 28, 2004
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
TO MICHIGAN VET: U r welcome to voice u're thoughts. There were only 7 Major Plus teams. I am sure that the Major Plus teams would rather play against top 4--5 teams , than top 1-2 teams. The 50 & 55 teams have a hard time playing on Thursday. If, u want to find fault, this problem is w/ the organ.' & not the teams. Kelly- wanted to play & informed SS-USA, that Kelly could not put enough men on the field. SS-USA, will let teams in because the level of play would be less. The STAR'S have played several times w/ only 9 men. What is FAIR?
TO BOB 50: Everyone wants to play @ least 4-6 games. Do u want to play in a WOTLD that has only a few teams or teams from a small areas, such as St. George's NSA?
Play ball & try to have fun. Just think what the Tournaments would be like if, players that can not get off Thursdays or Fridays are not allowed to play, because these players missed 1 day? Less teams & less games??
Sept. 28, 2004
BillyMac
Men's 55
91 posts
I am the co-sponsor of Thermco / CT Sportsplex. We play 50+ major +. We had a 17 tournament schedule in 2004, starting in March. Most of my players are still gainfully employed, working for someone else. In order to participate in the scheduled tournies, these men used up all of their vacation days, sick days, and personal days at their respective places of work. Now we come to the last major tournament of the year, the SSWC. The tournament starts on Thurs, which requires Wed. travel. That means 3 more days of missed work (and possibly lost wages) to attend the tourney. Since all other organizations require you to play in the round robin games to qualify for the double elimination portion of the tournament, we naturally assumed this to be the case in the SSUSA / SSWC. Had we realized that it was not mandatory to attend on Thurs. and Fri., we definitely would not have done it. 2 extra nights hotel plus 2 extra days of car rental, to say nothing of missed work is too high a price to pay, unless it is absolutely necessary. At the major + level, with only 8 teams (which turned into 7; another issue) being the lowest seed due to not attending the round robin play is no big deal when compared to the advantages in time, money, and wear and tear on the players that is gained by not attending.

The powers trhat be in SSUSA should have made it clear to everyone concerned that attendance at the round robin portion of the tournament was not mandatory.

I want to make it clear that I take nothing away from Kelly's Sports. I'm sure that they had internal problems which prevented their attendance on Thurs. They are an excellent team, capable of winning regardless of the circumstances.

My point is more that every team that entered shoukld have been informed that attendance was not mandatory.

peace
Hit To WIN!!!!!!!!
Billy Mac #4
THERMCO / CT SPORTSPLEX
Sept. 29, 2004
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
Billy Mac: If, my memory serves me right, last yr. u were not happy about the way LVSSA tournament was ran, either. U left early. U're players were upset & very rude. Did u're players fork out the money for air fare & hotels? Or, did u're sponsor pay for air & rooms? R u not able to ask questions, such as: 1) # of teams in division 2) legal bats 3) type of ball 4) min. # of games 5) when r the 1st & last games times? Most of SS-USA's larger events r 3-4 days, i.e., RENO. The 40+ played 2 games Friday & 2-4 games on Saturday. Then 1-3 on Sunday. Sorry, Charlie, but, I am out of cheese.
Sept. 29, 2004
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2617 posts
I find it hard to have any sympathy for sponsored teams and players. Most of us foot the majority of the costs of motel, food and gas. If a sponsor finds it too expensive to play in a four day tournament maybe we need another division for sponsored teams that can only play Saturdays and Sundays.
Sept. 29, 2004
Michigan Vet
Men's 55
229 posts
I hope Kelly's did not take my thread the wrong way, I was not saying they cheated, they used the rule to their benefit. They are a good team and deserved to win! But if you can't make all the games in a 4 day tournament don't enter!
I got the responces I was hoping for and I hope the associations take a look at the seeding procedure. Either make it mandatory to play in seedings or let it be known to all teams that it is not required. I do not think the seeding is necessary in majors and majoe plus because it seems all the same teams show up every weekend. But in the lower divisions you always have new teams showing up that nobody knows.
Sept. 29, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
In regards to our missing the 2 seeding games on thursday. Out of respect for all those that were involved and for those that might be invloved in future events, i will explain what happened.
Months ago when i was planning the vegas trip i saw the date of friday sept. 24th and thought it was our date, turns out to be the 40+ and Women's date. This would have been just like the reno event was this year for us a 3 day event. Right before i booked the flight i called senior softball and asked for a late friday morning game and was told that could be arranged. I decided to then fly in on friday expecting to play the whole event. No need to go in 1 day early like for fl. and des moines to acclimate because it is 1 hour away and it is the weather we know anyway.
Seems that the senior softball staff member thought that i must have been refering to a late thursday game and just thought i mis spoke but NO, i really meant friday thinking that is when it started. I after that phone call booked my flight, got back to senior softball and had there travel gal set up rooms for friday and saturday night only at the host hotel and again no mention of thursday anywhere.
No more then 1 week before the event i had a meeting with senior softball to drop off the 300 scorebooks that i donated to the event and at that meeting found out that the event was starting on thursday. I bought southwest non refundable, non returnable on line seats which means that i either use the tickets or lose the tickets, no if's and's or but's about it. I then asked Terry Hennesey what happenes if we cant make it in on thursday and he explained that we would start with 2 forfiet losses for thursday. He said that the rest of our bracket would not be adversly affected by this as they knew about it in enough time to still run the bracket there normal way.
I opted to come in on friday as by now no one had asked for thursday off and i could not get a team there on thursday anyway.
I explained this to the Pine Knob manager on friday as we were sharing a field for Batting practice and he seemed to have understood the confusion. He also expressed some of the concerns that i have seen in this thread about 4 games being too many.
My fault for the mix up as i got the dates wrong to begin with. I took upon myself to book all 4 of our world flights this year and was 3 for 4 not perfect but anyone who has had to make all these arrangements knows the potential for mistakes.
I apologize and accept full responsibilty for this mistake but want all of you guys to understand that it was not intentional. We would have shown up on thursday if not for my mistake.
I will say after reading some comments here that if you guys think 4 games is too much, Petition Terry to consider 2 seeding games and a double elimination consolation bracket for the teams that lose the first 2 in double elimination, or 3 seeding games and a single elim consolation bracket.
I hope everyone like us has had a great time overall playing the sport that we all love and i will see some of you guys down the road next year.
Thanks
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 29, 2004
Train
Men's 60
20 posts
I don't think that there should be 4 day tournaments in the 50 & 55 brackets since everyone is still working.
But if you enter a 4 day tourn.it is only fair for everbody to follow the same rules . If you start bending the rules here and there you are opening a can of worms
Sept. 29, 2004
Longballr9
Men's 40
48 posts
Gentleman, it seems that there is alot of talk about 4 day tourneys being to much. While I agree that it can be tough to get away for that many days, please keep in mind that these are the bigger, more important and more fun tourneys to be at and if there weren't so many teams who wanted in this wouldn't be a problem. The softball world has been flooded with more and more teams in recent years. The result is bigger and longer tourneys than in the past. Even though this can put a strain on us, we should be overjoyed that this competition exists and that we all are still in good enough shape to go out and take part in this sport which we love! Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Look at the positive aspects here.

See ya on the field!
Mike Williams
Anaheim, CA
Sept. 29, 2004
sliplayer
Men's 60
70 posts
I would agree if the tourney was large enough to merit 4 days that would be great. However when you have a smaller number tof teams hen the problems with getting off work and expense of coming extra days can cause a strain.
The point is nothing is gained by playing a 4 day tourney.
Sept. 29, 2004
TotallyRec
Men's 50
32 posts
The World Championship Tourament dates are set well in advance. It would seem that anyone interested in playing in the tournament would make those dates a priority and would schedule their vacation times accordingly. In regards to the seeding rounds and missed games. It is unfair for teams to travel long distances (i.e. Japan, New Jersey, New York or even Colorado) expecting to play four round robin games and end up only playing three games because of a forfeit. In addition, you are looking at the costs to the tournament for umpires and staff field preparation that go unused. A forfeit effects a lot of people that have committed time, resources and money to the event A for feit win is not as important in the round robin play as having the chance to play that extra game and get acclamated to the weather. My team (TOP GUN), made the commitment a year ago to play in the full tournament and all fifteen players arrived on Wednesday evening. We played our first game in round robin play at 8:00 a.m. on Thursday and finished up on Sunday ( eight games later). I would hope that we all would consider how they would feel if they traveled a long way to a tournament to have their first game of the tournament a forfeit.
A two game round robin would not truly establish an effective seating list. The seating would be determined by the luck of the draw. Long winded, but this was my first Senior World Series Tournament in the 50+ and I enjoyed the competition and fellowship between players or all skill levels. Senior Softball is fantastic.
Sept. 29, 2004
Sweet P
Men's 60
168 posts
Per my conversations with the SSWC staff they are going to review the 4 day tournament format. There is no need to have tournaments run more that 3 days max. USSA and ASA events with 30-40 teams run 2-3 days. Starting a tournament at 8am on a Thurs. is hard. Tournaments that start during the week should start during the evening, allowing more time for travel and therfore requiring less time off from work for people who work.
Bob50, I play for West Coast and no we will not be in Florida. You guys have a nice team, I am looking forward to playing you guys again.

Phillip Cobbs, WC Allstars
Sept. 29, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
To Train and TotallyRec. If you would take the time to read and understand my message you would see that no rules were bent or broken here at all. The penalty for missing a seeding game with this organazation is a loss. Our forfiets were done in advance and no team was waiting to play us and there was no unnessary inconviences like there would be had the games already been sceduled. We traveled to 3 other worlds this year from coast to coast and showed up on wensday in Des Moines, What else can i say??? Like previously stated, this was a mistake and not intentional, we will show up any time, any where to play any one.
Thanks Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 29, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
To Train and TotallyRec. If you would take the time to read and understand my message you would see that no rules were bent or broken here at all. The penalty for missing a seeding game with this organazation is a loss. Our forfiets were done in advance and no team was waiting to play us and there was no unnessary inconviences like there would be had the games already been sceduled. We traveled to 3 other worlds this year from coast to coast and showed up on wensday in Des Moines, What else can i say??? Like previously stated, this was a mistake and not intentional, we will show up any time, any where to play any one.
Thanks Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 29, 2004
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
Knowing Mike Kelly and knowing how much his team like to play, I feel like it was an honest error. but it hard for some player that pay there own way and for some of teams players that only get a chance to play in pool or seeding game to miss a chance to play hurtsbecause of their love of the game. The rule needs to be looked at and make sure that teams does not use it to save money and time. it would ruin the game if you go to play pool games and find 2 or 3 teams are going to miss and just play the tourney. In the Major division there are just a few teams and they sometimes travel the most miles and play the same teams. I don't want to go and set and wait a couple days to play. In the ISSSA tourney sometime you only play 1 or 2 games a day to start with because they like for teams to stay 4 days. If teams want to come late let them start with one loss in the tourney. Just something to think about.
Sept. 29, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
JAH#4: Thanks and your right. We love to play and would not miss the chance to play if we can help it. All of the 7 other teams in our bracket still got all 4 games in seeding because it was all figured out in advance. The only penalty and rightfully so was our starting the event with 2 losses.
Hope this helps clear it up some.
Thanks Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 29, 2004
Train
Men's 60
20 posts
To Mike K. I was not trying to single out your team and it's situation. It's the teams that plan on not playing in the seeding rounds from the get go that's not right.
Sept. 29, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
JAH#4: Thanks and your right. We love to play and would not miss the chance to play if we can help it. All of the 7 other teams in our bracket still got all 4 games in seeding because it was all figured out in advance. The only penalty and rightfully so was our starting the event with 2 losses.
Hope this helps clear it up some.
Thanks Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 29, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Train: I am with you if teams just don't show up and leave other teams hanging. Ours was made as clean as possible for the other teams considering my mistake could not be undone in time. Thanks for your understanding. Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 29, 2004
TotallyRec
Men's 50
32 posts
MK39.. I read your e-mail and understand an honest mistake. My point is not a accusation at you or to Kelly Sports. My point was simply to find a solution to avoid teams in the future from taking advantage and finding a loophole in the system. All teams come with the best of intentions, but there are a few that usurp the process. An idea would be to have a team that forfeits a game in the round robin play, without just cause, (tournament director's discretion) would start in the losers bracket of the double elimination tournament. MK39, I have read many posts, I know of the history of Kelly's Sports and I'm not inferring or implying anything in regards to your team. Congratulations to you and the players of Kelly Sports for your World Championship victory in 50 Major+.

Kevin
Sept. 29, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Train: I am with you if teams just don't show up and leave other teams hanging. Ours was made as clean as possible for the other teams considering my mistake could not be undone in time. Thanks for your understanding. Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 29, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
TotallyRec: Thanks for the Congrats and Congrats right back at your for your World Championship as well. While buying my team lunch on sunday at the ole hot dog cart, a real nice gal from your team asked me how my team was doing and i told her that we were waiting in the championship game and i then asked her who her team was and it was of course you guys. I then wished her and your team all the luck in the worlds"get it" and was glad to hear later that you won it. I might bring the team down to palm springs in february and get to meet you guys then. There are so many different organazations in senior softball with so many different rules that to get them all on the same page would be quite a chore. If they want to look at what happened here with us in Las Vegas and see if it was fair or if changes need to be made in the future, then so be it. I will have more help running my team next year and hopefully we will not have any more mistakes in the future.
Thanks
Mike Kelly
Kelly's Sports 50 Major Plus
Sept. 29, 2004
TotallyRec
Men's 50
32 posts
Mike, Thank you as well. If you make the trip down to Palm Springs in February, I'll stop by and introduce myself. Palm Springs in February will be a lot cooler than Las Vegas in September. Good luck the rest of this season and in 2005

Kevin
Sept. 30, 2004
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey there,

4 Seeding games?
Are you kidding me?
The energy in the seeding games is so much less than when double elimination starts.
Why bother with 4.
Aren't 2 enough?
And what happens if one or more of your key players get hurt in a seeding game.
Doesn't that take away from the importance of the competition in the tournament.
We all know that double elimination is where it's at.
That's when the tournament starts.
So I suggest the powers that be burn some brain cells and figure out something better for next year.
I thought the tournament was run well.
The umps were good to excellent and that means a lot.
The balls were less than acceptable.
Most of the major plus teams were there.
It was a very competitive tournament and very satisfying to win.
Congratulations to everyone I saw and played against and all the games were competitive and honorably contested.

Einstein



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