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Discussion: face gear for pitchers

Posted Discussion
Jan. 21, 2010
sierahiker44
Men's 55
17 posts
face gear for pitchers
WTF. come on people. We know the dangers as a pitcher. Everybody has the option of wearing any protective gear they want. Well, wear it or dont wear it. Wear a hockey mask, football helmet, bike helmet etc. or dont. We are so called seniors and most of us have played for years and know the ricks involved. I pitch, wear shin guards, cup and an ugly face to scare the balls away. Doesnt work sometimes. If i want to upgrade to face gear I will. I dont need a mommy to tell me what to do or how to do it. Lets play. We only got a few good years left
Jan. 21, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
All excellent points.
Jan. 21, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4334 posts
Mommy and Daddy are the assn's. Now go to your corner. lol
In reality the issue comes down to liability. Mommy & Daddy do not want CPS taking them to kiddie court. Chances are they will anyway in the end.
Use, sign or sit, & worry later on results.
Jan. 21, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Understood, Scott. But seriously, who in the world would think of sueing the association because they missed the ball?
Jan. 21, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4334 posts
I doubt that would be the complaint (as you wrote it).
Otherwise I have no idea. But I'm sure there are some on the books as we write here for something as there are for other things we do know are going on that will not make it to a court trial but settled out of court.
If not none of this crap would have come about back when. You know the tern CYA. Well it's been covered over and over again.
Jan. 21, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Hiker44
In my case I am still waiting for a good year, any good year will do. Even a mediocre year. =)
Gary, you said it once before, we are a sue happy society. As long as the $$$ rule, people will sue.
Jan. 21, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
What else would it be? If it hit them, it was at them. What else would you sue for? A bad hop?

I do understand it happens, sad as that might be.
Jan. 21, 2010
UMBACH
33 posts
Maybe you dont care about being hit, but what about your wife, family, grandkids who rely on you , to be there for them, sometimes you have to think about who it effects , not just what u want
Jan. 21, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Perhaps true, but anyone's wife, family, grandkids, etc. is NO one's business but that person's.

Last I checked this is the United States. More people die or become disabled driving a car than playing slow-pitch softball.
Jan. 21, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
No one would sue on the basis that 'they missed the ball'... no one with any brains, anyway.
A basis might be... a 1B or 3B that 'was never properly informed of the dangers'...
First of all, not everyone reads the 'daily dribble' (AKA Senior Softball Message Board)... therefore, they can't be expected to know everything that has been stated about the dangers of 1.2 bats, etc.
Secondly, the 1.2 bats were all but dead about 5 years ago... SSUSA brought them back when ALL other assns, young and old, shitcanned them. It doesn't take F Lee Bailey to connect those dots.
Additionally, to initiate a case doesn't require a great deal... just a willing petitioner, an attorney and a few bucks for the filing... it then takes on a life of its own, so to speak. Dave Dowell pointed this out a day or so ago.
The threat of liability can be more powerful than the liability itself at times. So don't kid yourselves that some gold bricking opportunist wouldn't take that step... why not? Because you think that it wouldn't be manly? Nice try.
Stuff happens.
BW
Jan. 21, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I agree that the mechanics of initiating a case is simple. I am talking morally and ethically. Who is supposed to inform anyone of the "dangers"? I can't remember the last time anyone ever informed me of the dangers of driving my car. But I manage to know them and accept them.

The bottom line is the only kind of ball that can hit a guy is one right at them. And, in reality, if I get hit by own it is only because I missed it. Why else?
Jan. 21, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Gary, I can't speak for your car but my car has all sorts of warning labels... CDC player, GPS, air bags, seat belts, etc.
I know that 'being right' is really important to you but this isn't about right or wrong. It's about what one party can legally grind out of another.
You don't play in tournaments so your input on what's it like to play on horseshit fields under horseshit lights might not be that valuable.
But, while you're speaking of 'proper warnings', has anyone from SSUSA stated (orally or written) that playing with 1.2 bats might be more dangerous than with USSSA/ASA bats?
CA is very litiguous and there are lots of frivalous law suits. You can argue that you're too manly to ever do such a thing and the majority would agree (that they wouldn't do it either). It's the small minority that do that pose the problem. However, arguing that this doesn't exist is foolish. As they say, 98% of all lawyers give the rest a bad name.
I speak from experience. I own a small business and was sued one time in 35 years. She was wrong as hell but I still had to take time away from my business to research another broker's files, etc. I never had spoken with her directly but she sued me because I was the owner. It was thrown out of court but Blue Shield wanted to pay her off for their 50% (we were co-defendants), which meant that if I agreed I'd have to pay her, too. The whole thing was totally contrived on her part, the judge saw it that way and chastised her for wasting the court's time. Meanwhile, I was out 30 hours of my time and countless hours of sleep. Had I settled she would have 'won'.
BW
Jan. 21, 2010
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
UMBACH,
If your worried about being hit and the after effects on your family,stay home.
THERE AIRPLANES THAT FALL OUT OF THE SKY,CAR WRECKS,PEOPLE WITH GUNS,MOTORCYCLE WRECKS,RODEO ACCIDENTS.
I had a very good friend who died playing second base years ago.Nothing intentional,a ball hit at him,he missed it and was dead before he hit the ground.Found out later he had a bad heart,and it hit him in the right place.
At his funeral,his wife said he died doing what he loved.
No law suits,no hot balls or bats, no intent,it just happens.
When the man upstairs says, game over,it doesn't mean anything was intent,it just happens.

Jan. 21, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
anyone want to hear what Stoneman has dug up and has to say? =)
Jan. 21, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
the waiver we all sign should take care of any suits.
"3. Assumption of Risk
I recognize that we assume all risks involved arising from our participation in this Tournament and we knowingly undertake the inherent risks of the sport.

4. Softball Skills
I am familiar with the skills required to participate in an event sponsored by SSWCI and SSUSA (including batting, fielding, running and throwing) and have satisfied myself that my team and its players are proficient in these skills..."
Jan. 22, 2010
Omar Khayyam
987 posts
Dirty, I think you are being deliberately naive. Even your analogy is that of driving a car. You've never heard of anyone filing suit over an accident? Suing the car manufacturer? The tire manufacturer? The other driver? The city for not maintaining Bots Dots? The bar tender for letting a guy drink too much? Etc.Etc.

And your argument that more people die or are disabled driving a car might be weaker than you think. I have broken several bones in my years of playing softball, plus twisted ligaments, sprained tendons, etc. All of them partially disabling. I have been driving a car for decades and never had an injury—not one!. And I drive a car about 10 times as many hours as I play ball.

Wood has it right. We live in a litigious society. There are people all around that are sue happy, even amongst senior ball players, and there are underemployed lawyers just waiting for a chance to sue.

When an association like SSUSA seems so concerned about safety (and liability) that they mandate safety headgear, and this headgear involves a full helmet, it means they are concerned that conditions have become more dangerous. Waiving one's rights seems too weak to me to protect SSUSA. If a lawyer can show that they knew of the increased risk of a lively bat/ball combo (i.e. composite bats and the current ball) and did nothing to reduce risk (banning bats or dumbing down ball) it doesn't look good for them.

I'm sorry that our society is that way. But all it takes is a player who suffers thousands of dollars of damage beyond what his insurance will cover, and here comes the lawsuit (just to be "fairly compensated") or perhaps a widow is easily talked into suing because of the death of her husband on the ball diamond. Won't be me or my widow. I understand and accept the risks. But I am not so naive to believe it won't happen.
Jan. 22, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Omar, not naive at all. I know law suits happen all the time. And yes I have heard of suits against bartenders, and find those reprehensible. When did personal responsibility leave our society?

But my point remains that anyone who would file one on these kinds of grounds has a serious issue with a lack of pride and self-esteem.

Not to mention what would the basis be? He did his job, hit the ball at me, I didn't do my job,and missed it?

Trust me, MANY more people suffer serious injuries from motor vehicles than slow-pitch softball.
Jan. 22, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
wood, what makes you think a middle-age guy needs to play in Senior tournaments to know about crappy field and crappy lights?

But I also know that I can assess the field and lighting conditions BEFORE I step on the field, and I make the choice to play under those conditions or not. NO one can force me or anyone else to play in sub-standard conditions if that person doesn't want to. So again, who can you blame for the choices you make.

I have walked off of fields where I have seen lightening if the ump does not have the good judgement to stop the game. NO one forces me to play in conditions I don't find safe. And if I choose to play I completely accept the associated risk. As should everyone.
Jan. 22, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
dipty play in our tourney's so you can post something pertinent,otherwise you have no reason to post,oh thats right i forgot you can't play as no team will have you,so you need to come on here and just bash every post you can.
Jan. 22, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Gary, at times you seem to be a dim bulb... the underlying issue is there potential litigation or isn't there?
You may know a lot about playing the game over the years but you haven't played much of it as a senior. Those of us who have know the differences... they are more than subtle.
You need to feel that everyone should do things the way that you do... if they did, everything would be ok. This isn't the way things are going... and this law suit ball has been gaining momentum since the 70s. If you choose to continuously ignore this phenomenon so be it... I won't lose any sleep no matter how you react to it.
However, if all of the senior players did as you do, this entire message board would only be a virtual dialogue... because no one would show up to play. We'd all be like set extras at a SAG party... filled with idealism but no actual working experience.
BW
Jan. 22, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
wood, I am willing to bet quite a bit you fall far behind me in both quantity and quality of higher education, so be careful where you tread with that.

Please just tell me on what basis will the suit be filed. What unknown hazard exists? What preventable event occurs that someone/anyone could have done something about?

ANYTHING can be turned into a civil suit, you aren't saying anything profound with that statement.

Now could you please answer my questions.
Jan. 22, 2010
the wood
1076 posts
Gary, you really need to make this about you and me, don't you?
I could care less if you're a Rhodes Scholar... if you're that smart, show it. My mother has always said, 'pretty is as pretty does'. All of your knowledge hasn't seemed to put you in the position of being able to afford to play ball.
What suit? Do you not understand the concept of hypothetics?
You're starting to show signs that you're getting it. Yes, ANYTHING can be turned into a civil suit (damn near anything). This has been my point all along.
Tell you what... if you ever do show up, look me up... we can discuss whatever you'd like. In the interim, try using the quality and quantity of your education in such a way as to comprehend what someone is actually stating... rather than as a soapbox for pronouncing your many attributes. Apparently the Listening 101 Class wasn't part of your curriculum.
BW

Jan. 22, 2010
sierahiker44
Men's 55
17 posts
WOW, I didnt expect to get so much discussion on this issue. It seems that the main concern is lawsuits.I have been in many local leagues where you sign a waiver. However there were still lawsuits, mainly because that person made a mistake or error and did not want to accept responsibility for their actions. Should senior softball also tell an out of shape player they should not run the bases because they might have a heart attack? Or outfielders not to chase a ball in the gap because they might collide with ech other? Its endless. A good lawyer will no matter what waiver is in place will file a lawsuit. Please accept responsibility for your actions. Hope you dont get hurt, if you do, deal with it.
Jan. 22, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
siera,those examples are part of the game,its the part where the equipment is so hot now that you don't have time to react to the hit ball(mostly pitchers and INF'ers),that's where the problem lies.i say i can field with the best of them,but still have seen balls go by me before i can react to go get it.to me that is where a suit could be had and ss-usa kinda agreeing that the equipment is to hot by requiring pitchers to armor up or sign their life away by a waiver.
Jan. 22, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
wood, you made the "dim bulb" comment first. That made it about you and me, not anything I said.

The presence of a signed waiver, or any form of PPR or mandatory gear rules, won't prevent the filing of civil suits. Might, or might not, help the defendant but certainly does not prevent anything from being filed.

Guys know the liveliness of the equipment before they VOLUNTARILY take the field. So how can that be cause for a civil action? I make a bad choice and I am going to expect someone else to pay for it???? LOL
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