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| Jan. 26 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | want to play I know this discussion has been on here before,but here it goes anyway. You have team with 18 players on it,they all pay their own way,you go to a tournament and all "18" show up.(now that's a rarity) Do you bat all 18 ?I understand batting all 18 in the pool games,but when the tournament starts,do you bat all 18 or just the ones who are hitting?Been told just bat the ones who are hitting and let the others get in when possible.Also been told that some players "have to be role players" and play when they are needed. I know of an example of a player who DID NOT GET ONE HIT IN THE POOL GAMES,But when the tournament started,he got a chance to start,HE NEVER MADE AN OUT.NEED HELP HERE. Thanks, kenny |
| Jan. 26 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | r It depends on the expectation you set when you put the team together. This needs to be discussed before guys sign up and pay their way. This way there can be no, or few, questions or complaints. |
| Jan. 26 #19 Men's 70 302 posts | r Dirty... Good answer! It depends on why your team goes to tournaments... Do they go to win?... Or do they go to socialize and drink beer!... I don't think that pool games are throw-away games either... IMHO, pool games position your team for the tournament, as well as provide your players with a chance to work out the kinks, become familiar with the fields, etc... If you attend tournaments to win, you play your best players and use role-players for spot-starts and relief... If you attend tournaments for other reasons, then it doesn't matter who or how many plays... And, yes, all players need to know, up-front, what the expectations are. |
| Jan. 26 Jawood Men's 50 943 posts | r #6, Dirty's response is right on. When players are paying their own way they are paying to play the game and not sit all the time ... however it is impossible to play everyone in every game and win consistantly (if that's what you want to do). Even if all the players are close in talent, some will be some better than others, it is just the way it is ... not to mentioned that only a couple can pitch, play short, third, etc. You have to come up with a rotation system where players will sit out their share. Players must be on board with the idea or it will not work and you'll have problems. In the games that players sit out, they are reponsible for coaching a base, keeping score, making sure the beer is cold for after the game, those type of things. At our age, we can't have a squad of 10 or 11 and expect to finish strong on Sunday. You need 14-15 guys and rotating is the only way to do it. |
| Jan. 26 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | r Dirty certainly has it right, but I am intrigued by #6's assumption that you go with those who have been hitting. I have often played on teams with large rosters and sometimes everyone shows up for a tournament. We rotate sitting out a game, etc., but almost never on the basis of who has a hot bat. How do you tell? I know players can get in a groove where they don't seem to make an out, but that player was not necessarily in a groove the weekend before. And haven't we all experienced the guy who is crushing the ball all weekend but they are line drive outs, fielders make shoetop catches or over-the-shoulder catches! Great hitting but no results in the scorebook. What is more consistent as a criterium on who to play in an important game is defense. We have players on a large roster who can't be trusted to make three difficult catches in a row in the outfield. Or who don't get down like they used to in the infield and the ball goes under their glove. It is more likely that our manager will sit them than wonder who is hitting well. A timely hit is great, but an untimely preventable error is devastating. |
| Jan. 26 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | r this question can be debated till the world goes away,and still not have a suitable answer for everyone.i believe you can bat all if you are only carrying 12 or 13,but only if all are hitting equally good.we usually have a 5 man rotation in the INF and OF going for rest,that makes for 12 guys and carry 1 or 2 more just in case. but it is real hard to have guys pay their way and not get to play,i don't think i could do it,unless i was really stinking it up. |
| Jan. 26 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | r omar you posted while i was typing.you are dead on about the defense needing to be there.if the guy doesn't do it as good as he used or better than another on the team,then its the defender who is gonna play for me.now if the other guys is hitting real good,well he is in the batting order to hit and that's,that. oh make 3 difficult catches in a row,how about just 3 normal ones,DOH LOL. |
| Jan. 26 lemons Men's 65 323 posts | r Trust and confidence in the manager play an extremely important part in team harmony. There are players who confuse ego with pride. If the policy of who will play and when is known by all from the beginning, it should cut down on any complications.........but it won't. :>) I hope everyone has a great year. P.S. If attitudes cause a problem, contact Nurse Ratchet! |
| Jan. 26 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | r Thanks guys, I believe everyone who plays "tournament" ball,wants to win.How do you pick up players when you tell them up front, YOUR GOING TO BE A ROLE PLAYER ? I coached a very good men's B team years ago,I use to sit myself out so someone could play,I WAS THE BETTER PLAYER,but kept hearing the MUMBLING from the dugout.We lost a big game due to this player I let play for me,I LET THE TEAM DOWN,and the player who costs us the game couldn't have cared less, because he got to play. I guess I just don't know what you tell a player his role is going to be ,and expect him to travel to tournaments. GLAD I AM NOT THE COACH,TOUGH CHOICES ! |
| Jan. 26 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | r taits, Where are you when I need you. |
| Jan. 26 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | r Kenny, Just reading the posts, you're doing fine w\o my say. I actually agree with much that has been written. And like what was said, every manager will have his own way or perspective on how to run a team. Some are better than others in that judgement and placement. I for one do know there are teams that have that many show up, sometimes you don't know they are all going to show either. It gets tougher when there is no communication between the players and mgr. I know there was a team in Menifee recently, that had 20 show up... Kenny, Didn't you have 17 in Vegas when I played against you a few years ago? Years ago I left a team that had 15 show up twice, when we were told no more than 13 would be playing. The team now shows up regularly with 17. Trouble with playing as I see it we all have our bad days. You may also have a good hitter but is a lousy fielder or visa versa. Hard to juggle players that way. As long as thy give their best effort I don't think you can expect more. If you know your going to sit, that's one thing, if you don't, thats another. Most all pay, in order to play. |
| Jan. 26 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | r taits, We did have 17,I was hurt and could only bat.I hit well,but there were "several" players who didn't and when the coach sat them,since I was in the dugout only being an AH because of my injury I had to listen to all the crap,it almost drove me crazy ! One of the players(that was sitting) came up to the coach just before the Championship game and ask him"am I going to play the Championship game or should I go catch my flight,coach said you better go catch the flight". |
| Jan. 26 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | r #6 Ouch. Was that back then or what you are referring to now on here? Is he still on the team? Listening to that kind of stuff I the dug out is akin to reading some of the stuff on here. But here you can ignore it, at a game its not that easy. You still taking Wal-Mart pics...lol Only kidding. |
| Jan. 26 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | r taits, No he's not on the team and that was back then.It drove me nuts,a lot more fun being on the field. |
| Jan. 26 Mr. Manassas 244 posts | r I have coached and been on a number of teams and I can't tell you the times that I have seen the coach sit a player just because he won't bitch. I have done it myself. I agree that you have to tell people up front what there roles will be and rotate players to some degree. At this age there are always people hurt but 18 players that show all the time would be tough to get into enough games to keep all of them satisfied. |
| Jan. 26 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | r I think if you had the entire team vote on best shortstop, best pitcher, best right fielder, etc. and they couldn't vote for themselves...you would have a pretty accurate analysis of the team's strengths and weaknesses. And the same for most consistent hitter, best clutch hitter, etc. And I would guess that such a poll would be very close to the coach's opinion. But as one of my favorite poets, Robert Burns, wrote 225 years ago: O wad some Pow'r the Giftie gie us To see oursels as others see us It wad frae monie a blunder free us An' foolish notion. An inaccurate estimation of one's own abilities is what leads to bench bitchin', hurt feelings, jealousy, etc. which drives many away from coaching and just playing. Dog, three great plays by some of my teammates in an entire tournament would make my coach smile. |
| Jan. 26 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | r In some defense of the mgrs, all I san say is; if its a self sponsored or supported team, numbers make the fee cost less, but still can kill the spirit when you sit and can play more than one position and another never gets exchanged out. Knowing ahead of time alleviates part of it. In the heat its not a bad idea to have one or two more than normal, but then, what is normal. |
| Jan. 26 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | r Omar, wasn't that George Burns relative? lol |
| Jan. 26 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | r einstein, Where are you on this ? |
| Jan. 26 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | r Writing a long essay on it. |
| Jan. 27 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | r Are there actually teams that show up at a tournament where winning is not the first priority? |
| Jan. 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | r I hate to disappoint the troops and it sure is nice to be missed. OK. It's never too late to step up and join our community. Gary, everyone's agreeing with you and I do, too. We play...to win...the game. Whether we like to admit it or not. Batting 10 is more competitive than 11 which is more competitive than 12 and it doesn't matter if you're DH's are Pete Rose and Babe Ruth. Adding guys slows the roll of the line up and decreases momentum and the positive anticipation that ends up driving big innings or getting 10 hits in a row. So, either you get guys like Gary Tryhorn did with the Old A's who understand they are role players and don't have to bat to help the team or you bring few guys which is what I'm trying to do in NorCal this year so everyone who shows up, plays. Otherwise, it's picnic ball, rec ball when you bat 12 or 13 or 14 and necessarily takes away from the competitiveness of the team. Again, if we play to win the game, free defensive subbing is the way to go and encourages greater and more meaningful participation than adding batters to the line up. |
| Jan. 27 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | r It was predictable that einstein, who always focuses on offense, would prefer to bat only 10 (offense is the only thing, you see) and remedies inevitable defensive weaknesses by his plan for defensive subbing for out-of-shape sluggers. I'm looking forward to watching his new team, both early in the season, and toward the end after wear-and-tear. |
| Jan. 27 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | r einstein, How you going to play on 2 teams if both want to play at the same tourney... |
| Jan. 27 Lecak Men's 60 1026 posts | r Omar so you've seen Joe's team? I saw a version of what Joe get's involved in several years ago the blueprint laid out by the Kelly gang. He also played with me a couple of years ago with the Arizona MOB which was an athletic offensive oriented team. What did those teams have in common the guys were in tremendous physical condition and hit a ton and played defense. If Joe follows that blueprint I wouldn't want to get in the way. |
| Jan. 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | r What opportunity is there for us who both play in NorCal to see each other, meet each other, say hi, talk to each other, root for each other learn and grow with one another if you don't step up or in for yourself. What or who are you scared of? If you're as smart as you claim to be you'd know I'm nothing no man need be afraid of unless I'm being attacked. You don't do yourself, me or any of us justice, standing in the shadows, talking without real identity and hiding behind a mask. And that would be a majority opinion whether you like it or not. |
| Jan. 27 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | r Joe,Is that the board majority or Senior Softball majority? Quite frankly who cares, (other then you) who he is? OK, has come up with his ideas and how he sees Senior Softball. Right or wrong, they are his. Ever think he isnt posting his name because he wants to continue messing with you? =) Wish I had thought of that! jk. On the issue of winning, of course winning is important, but it isnt the only thing that keeps many of us playing. And it seems the higher up in division we move it becomes more and more of an issue. Win or move on. If thats all there is in the upper division(s) I'll stay where I am. Its probably where I belong. Having fun with friends is what is all about. How many upper division teams stay with the same personel year after year? Very few. Compare those to the lower divisions and you will probably see a stark difference in team loyalty and longevity. Are there exceptions? Of course there are. Win at all cost only works when you are being paid. imo Welcome back Joe. Its been rather quiet without you. (keep free defensive subbing where it belongs, OUT OF SENIOR SOFTBALL) |
| Jan. 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | r Hey E. You see it's not a small thing that we know who you are and I am and the great majority of posters because it's fundamental to respect, accountability and meaningful communication among us. I don't make the rules of fundamental human interaction and their meaning. I'm just smart enough to figure stuff out, sometimes. Other times, not, just like the rest of us. But I know what I know and I'm sure of what I'm sure of and not stepping up and into ANY meaningful discussion with adults is always less than what it should and could be and not good enough for the great majority of us. OK needs to know he's considered a light weight and not to be taken seriously whatever his intentions are by the great majority of those who post here. It's really very simple. Good bats and ball forever and free defensive subbing rules. See you in Reno. |
| Jan. 27 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | r the way i see it,if you have 12 guys who hit good,than to me that's your best way to go.you have 2 guys to rotate in for rest on defense,big deal your don't go thru the lineup more.if everyone is hitting,no prol,and this will also rest your team by not having to run so much,unless your one of those that require a runner,than have to have one of your teammates run for you(thats what your 13th and more guys can be for). omar keep posting and don't bother with the naysayer that can't get at you,your better for it. |
| Jan. 27 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | r Even if all 12 of your guys "hit good", the bottom two won't hit as well as the top two, or they wouldn't be at the bottom. The bottom two won't hit as well as the other ten, for that matter, so all they are doing is taking at bats away from guys who are better. Not the best batting order you can have. |
| Jan. 27 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | r well i guess it can be that way,but i have played on teams where we had 12-13 guys who came close for their hitting ability,it was defense where they weren't that equal.let me say once a team gets hitting the so call lower ability guys seem to just catch on and go.we also would put a good hitter or 2 at the bottom to turn us over(ones who could easily bat in the top 5)and put the so call lower ability guys scattered thru the lineup. |
| Jan. 27 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | r Joe, For the purpose of discussion, How do we know you are Joe? And why should it matter. Would your ideas carry less weight if we didnt know who was expressing them? Damn this is a great country! Freedom of expression without giving out personal info. Only here my friend, only here! Hope we can meet in Reno. Question is will you know its really me? =) |
| Jan. 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | r I'm gonna let stand what you said all by itself because I couldn't graph my concern any better. "How do we know who you are, Joe? And why should it matter." You're tripping, dude. I can't top that. |
| Jan. 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | r It really comes down to the definition of what "is" is. C'mon, man. |
| Jan. 27 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | r I'm begining to understand what others have been saying about how you either side step or just dont answer. I think it may be you who has been spending too much time in The Haight Neighborhood. |
| Jan. 27 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | r einstein, you might want to reevaluate your opinion on anonymous posters. Fact: the majority of posters on this message board do not identify themselves. I have counted: 58%. You think you know a lot of them anyway, and maybe you do, but for whatever reason, they choose to remain anonymous to the rest of us. Logic: Doesn't seem likely that a poster who remains anonymous would disrespect other posters who also remain anonymous. Looks like your "majority" isn't really a majority. Fact: after a couple of years of posting on this message board, you, and only you, are the only one who is bothered by my anonymity enough to say so, and you are certainly the only one who calls me names in your frustration ("disrespectful", "not a real man", "neutered", "no self-esteem", "elitist", etc.). Fact: I have never disrespected you, called you names, insulted you, challenged you, or threatened you. If I had, I could understand your desire to know who I am. But to the contrary, I am interested in talking ideas and concepts. When I have spoken of you, as in my above post, it is always with admiration and respect. Personal: I read all posters on this site with interest and respect. I don't need to know their names to laugh at their jokes, sympathize with their troubles, consider their opinions, share their frustrations, be intrigued by their ideas. I don't think I am unusual in this regard. Again, it seems to be only you that has trouble with it. P.S. I've never claimed to be smart. I think you have me confused with Dirty who often speaks of his education and IQ. |
| Jan. 27 canIjack Men's 60 322 posts | r WE PLAY TO WIN…Don’t WE? Again…… WE PLAY TO WIN! I play for a Team that bat and plays all its 13 guys. We won 1 tournament. It was the very first tournament that we were ever in. We have not won since. We have a good line up of hitters but when you add those under 400 avg. into the line up because they paid their own way and the Coach puts himself in the line up and he is only a 1-4 batter or even 2-4 on a good day and he bats himself 6,7 or even 8th. YOU’LL NEVER WIN! A friend and I started a Softball Team (Nitro) in Los Angeles, We had 1 rule. The Manager manages the game the players play the game. If I played, I didn’t manage, he did. And when he played I managed. We were never on the field at the same time. Even though we both hit over 700. YOU CAN’T PLAY AND MANAGE. We All Know that. And you never bat over 10 unless your DHs are Bruce Walker or Greg Garret. That’s why they call them ROLE PLAYERS. If you want to win don’t bat Ten and If you want to play don’t BE A MANAGER. |
| Jan. 27 canIjack Men's 60 322 posts | r (Smile) CORRECTION: If you want to win bat only Ten. |
