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Online now: 2 members: Hawk25, Tina C; 6 anonymousDiscussion: Article 1 on balls... long read
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| June 25 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | “There are a couple of possible explanations for this surprising result,” wrote co-authors Dr. Michael Ciocco and Dr. Mark McDowell, of the US Department of Energy’s National Energy Technology Laboratory “It may be that the actual COR of the ball at real impact speeds (100 mph) may be very different from the balls stated COR,” they wrote. “The COR tests use an impact speed of 60 mph. . . . and it has been shown that COR is a strong function of impact speed.” The change in the ball velocity can be seen in fundamental changes in the game - especially on defense. “You see more and more infielders standing 15 feet back on the grass - that is a function of increased ball velocity,” said Sims. While the new tests raises questions about ball COR ratings, Compression ratings have emerging problems of their own. One of the biggest issues is consistency. A recent set of tests by a major ball manufacturer that found ball compression differed markedly on each of the ball’s four sides. That means that a ball may meet the compression standard on one or two sides, but be too hard on the other two sides. While ball experts have known that compression varies from ball to ball, this is the first test showing an individual ball can vary from side to side The tests, done by Prof. William Brandt, director of the Sports Science Center of New York University for Anaconda Sports The COR on balls varied from .45 to .47 on different sides of the same ball. To put this in perspective, these differences in COR and Compression can change bat performance markedly: from a 1.10 bpf to a 1.20 bpf. “In an extreme case,” according to one bat manufacturer who asked to remain anonymous, “it means that a bat will meet the standards if you hit one side of the ball, but not if you happen to hit the other side.” It appears that 2003 will be a year of discovery. Manufacturers and testing authorities are working a new set of standards for testing bats, which will likely result in the re-testing of balls. “It is very likely that there will be new standards for both bats and balls - but it is unclear yet what those standards will be - or even what tests will be agreed upon,” said Terry Hennessy, CEO of Senior Softball-USA |
| June 25 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Interesting. I have said in many posts that the ball is the hardest thing to get right and any change should be made to the bat. It is really too bad that technology is causing such an uproar in our game. It may not be too long before every bat and ball will have to meet standards so exacting that balls will be $100 each and you will have to take out a second mortgage to get a bat.Sheesh-and we thought Blue Dots were controversial when they came out. |
| June 25 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Talk is cheap, webbie. There's a lot of posturing and fear mongering but last I checked we're all men out here in the best sense of the word with common sense, (you, too, Nancy) and we ain't going anywhere soon. If they test anything to exacting standards nothing and no one would pass any test. It's poppycock, some self interest and our own abdication of responsibility for ourselves and our game. God bless, America 'cause we get to chose. We and our game, ain't goin' anywhere, is my take. 52 x 275 this. |
| June 25 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | We live with change throughout our lives, we'll survive and live with any ball or bat changes that may happen, some will like it, some will not. Posturing & Fear mongering is a two sided street. |
| June 25 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I'm not the one trying to change things, John. That's a little unfair. I'm going along with what we're doing all of us, are doing now, that has been sanctioned by SSUSA, NCSSA, Huntsman, SPA and others. It's the change that is suspect and those who would have us change or roll over for the biggest new wind that comes along. I'm defending who we are and how we've evolved to this point, John. Be careful. |
| June 25 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | The oldest and slowest group using the hottest bats and then having to incorporate dumb-a$$ "safety" rules to accommodate the insecurities and fragile egos of old men might not be consider "evolution" by many. |
| June 25 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Gary, The tendency toward better equipment and performance undergirds all sport from the amateur to professional. Better training, better ingredients, better nutrition, better stadiums, better surfaces, better science and fundamentally, better IS better. We must be careful to establish and cultivate a context for all these discussions because intellectually they can drill down and look overpowering. Safety/shmafety, G. Our game has always been dangerous and better bats/balls are what we've always sought and desire. You watch what happens in baseball as hitters get more overpowered by pitchers with BAs and HRs going down. They'll juice up the ball to give them more chance to enjoy the game and the fans, too. They've done it before and will do it again and we'll love it, too everyone but the pitchers and a small group of zealots. |
| June 25 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Sound familiar? Sure it does. |
| June 25 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, think restrictor plates in NASCAR. Or certain grooved balls being outlawed in the PGA. Or no metal bats in pro baseball. It is not always about bigger/faster/better. Though, as I have said many times, I don't care what bats are used as long as these stupid rules don't come into play to accommodate them. |
| June 25 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | What's wrong with not believing what a couple of self interested and/or uninvolved people have to say about our game and how it should be played? What's wrong with the way we're playing now? Why not let these or anyone demonstrate once and for all, given all the givens that going to meaningfully lesser equipment is truly in all our best interests? I've seen the data and heard all the arguments and you know what? I'm not convinced. And you know what? Neither is SSUSA, NCSSA, LVSSA, SPA Huntsman and others. If I need to change for the sake what's truly best for everyone I'm going along for the ride but just because there's a lot of hullabaloo, fear mongering and smoke blowing doesn't mean squa-douche about the accuracy/validity of what's being proposed. C'mon, man. |
| June 25 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Why is it unfair to accept change? No one is singling out you or what you believe in. Joe you throw out the idea that we are being manipulated by outside, self interested, businesses. So what, thats why they are in business. Isnt it posturing for the equipment you would like to continue to use by somehow making us fear the possible use of lesser balls and bats? You tell me to be careful, careful of what Joe? Change? I find change is good more then not. |
| June 25 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | The change to the special bats is what got Seniors into this mess of screens, PPRs, pitcher's boxes, helmets, shin guards, body armor, run limits, time limits, and on and on...... |
| June 25 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | We have something that works, now, E. That's the point. I'm not the radical, here. I don't trust where this change is coming from in that it represents what's best and necessary for us and guess what? Neither do all the major senior associations, to date. Say what you want but painting me as recalcitrant or the odd ball at least on this subject is completely off base. I'm issue oriented, John and the bats/balls NEED to be lively for us to enjoy our game and there isn't two ways about it. That's what the status quo which I represent is saying. Most of us like our game just the way it is and that's obvious by the participation and reactions at the parks and tournaments. |
| June 25 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | I agree with in part Joe, we have something that just works. Players will play with whatever is available and usually like it. That doesnt mean it CANT change in a direction thats better for the whole and not just better for the few who really dont represent a majority of Senior Softball. RECALCITRANT: /rɪˈkælsɪtrənt/ Show Spelled[ri-kal-si-truhnt] Show IPA –adjective 1. resisting authority or control; not obedient or compliant; refractory. 2. hard to deal with, manage, or operate. —Synonyms 1. resistant, rebellious, opposed. According to this definition we both appear to be Recalcitrant. Nothing odd about it. We know what we want, what we like and theres nothing wrong with that. We just have different views, isnt that why we post? To let our ideas out. |
| June 25 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | It's not true the players will play with whatever's available and usually like it. I won't. John Barrow won't. Ron Joseph won't and on and on. That's exactly where we disagree and again, SSUSA, NCSSA, LVSSA, SPA and Huntsman all seem to agree. You don't change what 10's of thousands of people enjoy without necessity or being sure and convincing it's going to be better on the other side and it's not even close. This ball has gotten panned over and over again because it's not lively enough and bounces, sounds and feels funky. We don't have more injuries then at any other time in softball. The testing never took adrenalinized and/or anticipation into its subjects' reaction to get a more accurate/appropriate result. I'm with the status quo on this one John and I must say it makes me a little uncomfortable being a self styled non conformist but the lines are drawn and clear. There's the most of us on one and a few of you on the other and as Spock said the needs of the many always outweigh the needs of the few. |
| June 25 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | einstein, Not fear mongering or close. Just what IS ON THE HORIZON. I have said I am against the 52 ball actually prefer a 47\525 which was the ball or choice some 5 years back or so. The 2nd bart also applies and was posted here back when. All relates to this stuff going on now but just ignored. What ever we are allowed to use will be it. Be it the ball or the bats out there. |
| June 25 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Tell it to the insurance companies that insure everyone of the amateur and senior associations Joe. We know what we want, they know what they want. My guess is the big $$$$$ will win out regardless of what the associations say. We've beaten this subject to death, Taits is right, whatever is allowed is what it will be. |
| June 27 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | E4/6- that's what is gonna happen but some people would rather just bury their heads in the sand and not believe it.they won't play,yeah right. i played yesterday with the kids in a usssa tourney and we had to use the 52-275 ball,guess what,i still got my hits,and we got to play some defense and it didn't matter whether or not they brought dirty bats to the plate(too bad cheaters).oh the hr hitters were still able to hit it out,even tho it cost them(E tourney hrs= inning ending outs).scores were in the hi teens for most teams,so there was good scoring. the ball we used was the worth hot dot classic+ pro tac cover. so in the end was it fun "HELL YES WE HAD FUN". |
| June 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey John, I found out that the insurance companies have no interest in the equipment we use. It's only NorCal that says we want to use 1.2 senior bats and 44 x 375 balls. The insurance company doesn't care what we use. The insurance is the same. Someone is and has been blowing a ton of smoke and it ain't me but it sure does make me sneeze. We're in the GREAT majority John and we ain't goin' anywhere. Much ado about nothing. |
| June 28 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Statistically, softball especially senior softball is one of the safest sports anyone can participate in regardless of the equipment we use. That's what insurance companies are hooked up on. No more guys get hurt now than at any other time playing softball and Terry knows this very well. He has the stats to back it up. Much ado about nothing and lively bats and balls rule and if winning is still important free defensive subbing is better than adding batters picnic style to a line up. Maybe we should put them together and not either/or. Hmmmmmmm. -More players needed/used/participating -higher level of play -less injuries -meaningful rest/breaks for old guys running around in the sun -better team esprit given not having to keep role playing/limited guys rooting on the bench. |
| June 28 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | I hope you are right about the insurance companies Joe. Less outside interference the better. Above you stated you werent the one trying to change things, isnt "free defensive subbing" a change? So instead of "Picnic Style" batters we would have "Picnic Style" defensive subbing? It seems old guys love to run around in trhe sun! |
| June 28 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I really think free defensive subbing would help us and our game but I'm not threatening to quit because of it nor do I believe it would kill the game if it's not implemented, John. The bat/ball combo we both require and deserve is an issue worth promoting and fighting for, I do believe. |
| June 28 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | einstein, Have Gary T. run that one by the GM at the Manteca FOD\BLD park. INSURANCE WAS\IS the reason the U-2 is not allowed there. But you are correct on injuries in softball compared to other sports, but the majority of stats are out dated and relate to the under 30 groups. I know of no stats taken from anywhere by any recognized group concerning seniors and sports injuries. Unless you want to call the MM email sent to mgrs awhile back on injuries compared from year before. Pitcher related. I'll have to go look again for senior sports related injuries stats. |
| June 28 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Scott, Any senior who swings senior bats knows that Combats, some deMarini's and Worth Bats are as hot or hotter than the Ultra 2 making it meaningfully absurd to ban one and not the others. I think it probably has more to do with money and politics, just like everything else in America, than safety. |
| June 28 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | No mention of a BAN do I think I made, but rather why has their been no improvements as to controlling the Dr's, or illegal bats out there. The chips designed to detect altering which is available is ignored, WHY? I believe it has already been used to deny a warranty claim. There were only a few guys singled out some years ago for doctoring bats, but they or at least some of them now play and even control some large T's. Nothing wrong with doing the time and returning to the game, but you know where the bodies are... or those responsible for keeping it going... They are still out there. ALL OVER, TEN FOLD. Keep the game on the up and up so the good stuff keeps being available, that's all. |
