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Discussion: tournaments for league bats only

Posted Discussion
Aug. 25, 2010
gary c
411 posts
tournaments for league bats only
who do you contact to float the idea of having some tournaments with bats that we use in league and no hot bats?
Aug. 25, 2010
Marv19
Men's 60
444 posts
If we have enough positive feed back we would consider it. So let's see.

Marv
SCSSA
www.socalssa.com
Aug. 25, 2010
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Our league has HOTTER bats with all the illegal loading going on by the youngsters. At least with the U2 in the seniors you know what you are facing (usually).
Aug. 26, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2665 posts
I agree Jawood! This spring I played in an open league on Mondays, ASA bats only. It seemed like most teams had at least one "suspected hot bat".
I also played in a senior league on Tuesdays and we knew what they were swinging.
Aug. 26, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Seems we are so spoiled by these trampolines that we can't even play fair if they take away our addiction. It would really be an adjustment for all of us if they did go back to bats about equal to the Orange Crush techfire and left a decent ball to play with. I'm just curious if they could shave one of those.
Aug. 26, 2010
gary c
411 posts
It's sad that guys have to cheat I guess when you didn't have talent when you were young and played baseball you make up for it by cheating when you get old. If your a good hitter you don't need a U2 you have talent.
Aug. 26, 2010
UMP IN NORTH GA.
47 posts
THIS KINDA BUT NOT REALLY IN THE SAME BALL PARK ... OUR LOCAL SENIOR LEAGUE HAS BEEN USING 44 375 BALLS ALL YEAR TILL THE PARK RUNS OUT OF THERE OLD STOCK ... OUR LEAGUE ALLOWS ASA BATS RULES WITH FREAK AND SYNERGY2 ALSO ...
WELL THE OLD STOCK OF BALLS RAN OUT AND WE SWITCHED TO THE 40 325 BALL LAST NIGHT THE 70S NEVER REALY NOTICED OR DIDN'T CARE ... THE 50S ON THE OTHER HAND TOOK A GAME TO FIGURE IT OUT... WE PLAY ON A 285FT. FIELD AND WITH THE THE OLD BALLS WE WOULD HAVE 10 - 15 HOMERS A NIGHT OVER A 3 GAMES ... WE HAD 1 ALL NIGHT WITH THE NEW BALL AND IT WAS THE WALK OFF BOTTOM OF THE 7TH OF THE LAST GAME ... AND BY THE WAY THEY WEREN'T SIZZZLING OVER HEAD ON THE WAY OUT OF THE INFIELD ... SO MY POINT IS EVEN IF THE GUYS STILL WANT A SENIOR BAT TO SWING ... LOWER THE CORE AND COMPRESSION AND YOU GOT YOUR SAFER GAME ... THE GAMES WERE LOWER SCORING AND WENT BY FASTER ... NOW THERE TALKING ABOUT ADDING THE SENIOR BATS NEXT YEAR ... IT BROUGHT BACK A REAL GAME NOT A HOMERUN DERBY

JESSE
Aug. 26, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Jesse, you are singing mad dog's song—use a different ball, keep the senior bats, and voila! you have returned to the glory days of yesteryear (actually only a decade ago).

As you said "it brought back a real game, not a homerun derby"! Safety is a bonus. It's time to advocate for a balanced game where defense, base running, strategy are all as important as offense which now includes the single behind the runner, not just the long ball. Another bonus, the games went by faster.

You noted that the 70s never really noticed; it was the younger guys, spoiled by lively bats and balls, who had to adjust to more realistic conditions. I believe it.
Aug. 26, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2665 posts
Jessie, many, including me, decline to play in Smyrna because of ASA bats. One team there is known to use doctored bats and many find it unfair that they use shaved sticks while everyone else uses undoctored ASA bats. If and when they go to senior bat many of these players will again play there.
I would be willing to bet that their league will lose more players if they go to the 40 cor ball.

Omar, "single behind the runner"? This is softball, not baseball. I love to see a batter try to hit the 3-4 hole with a runner on first!
Also your statement "Another bonus, the games went by faster", are you an umpire or do you dislike playing softball so much that you want it to end quicker? If you want games to go by faster why no play 1 pitch?
Aug. 26, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Omar thank God someone else wants to play the game the right way. What makes the game great is the stragey in the game. If someone is caught with a illegal bat in league play they should be thrown out of league and tournament play for good.Lets get back to the game
the way it was meant to be played.That's why we should have tournaments with no hot bats that way there would be more emphasis on fielding and base running.
Aug. 26, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2665 posts
Jessie, I just checked with our stats at Hobgood where we use senior bats and 44/375 Rock's on 298' fences.
In 233 at bats and 6 games in the first night of league play last Tuesday, there was only one home run!
Not very much a home run derby!
Aug. 26, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Some guys want to play "HIT BALL FAR" that's why you should have two kind of tournaments. Like I said before good hitters hit with anything they don't need to cheat.
Aug. 26, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Bruce, my comment about the faster game had nothing to do with my druthers. I'm one who wants to play a full 7 innings each game. I would like to see tournament schedules adjusted so that can happen most of the time. I'd like to also see umps get on players backs who drag out to the field between innings. Don't mess with the pitch count.

I was referring to another thread where there were multiple complaints and suggestions about games that only go 5 or 6 innings because of time constraints. Jesse pointed out that the games went faster so they played more innings. That sounds good to me. It's because I like to PLAY that I oppose the hot bats and lively balls that expand scores, not just with home runs (although that is part of it by personal experience) but by power hits up the gap, shots in the hole, and other feats not common to many batters before the "senior" bats came in the last decade.
Aug. 27, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2665 posts
Thanks for explaining your position on speeding up games.
Too many want to speed up the game by going to 1-1 count, flip flop etc.
Aug. 27, 2010
Donny C
54 posts
Our senior league voted and are using wooden bats for our tourny. I am not to crazy about using these bats but it sure has evened up the teams and made games much more competitive. No balls over the fence at all, very few if any even rolled to the fence. Scores were down by 15 runs a game. The less talented teams were in the game, one undefeated team got beat by a score of 4-3. Defense was a big factor, balls were being caught at least 50% more. Our fences are 300' and if I recall when we used wooden bats in 60's and early 70's the fences were around 250'-275 and the 275 were an exception. I do recall some wooden bats were better than others, as all metal bats are not equal. I still love to swing an ultra 2 but my team has an opportunity to win using wooden bats. Kind of nice to have an opportunity to win as we have not won a game in 2 years. We were in our game this week (in the 7th)for the first time and wooden bats used by all was the reason. Donny C.
Aug. 27, 2010
Senior Moments
Men's 60
57 posts
The 60+ Senior League in Orlando has to play by ASA rules. Meaning ASA bats and 44/375 balls.

As always, some players cannot afford the better ASA bats and others take extra measures to "Improve" their bats.

We are implementing a "league bat" concept. We bought 4 ASA bats (26,27,28,30) that all teams must use, no exceptions. The bats are kept on a rack behind home plate for each team's use.

No more complaining about an unfair advantage due to bats.

Senior Moments Softball
Aug. 27, 2010
UMP IN NORTH GA.
47 posts
BRUCE LET ME TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER, AND FOR YOU THAT DON'T KNOW BRUCE AND I HAVE BEEN TEAMATES AND IVE UMPIRED BOTH LEAGUES WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT. WE HAVE ALOT OF RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER.

1. WHEN YOU DO ANYTHING WITH A BALL OR BAT THERE IS ABOUT A 15-20 FOOT DIFFERENCE IN THE DISTANCE OF THE BALL
EXAMPLE 50CORE TO 47CORE , 47CORE TO 44CORE , ASA BATS TO USSSA BATS , USSSA BATS TO SENIOR BATS .

2. FENCES AT HOBGOOD ARE 300 AT TOLLESON ARE 285 SO THERES YOUR FIRST 15-20 FOOT DIFERENCE "SO HOTTER BATS ARE NOT NEED" AT TOLL. AND I KNOW THE TEAM YOUR TALKING ABOUT DOWN THERE BUT MAULLERS HIT JUST AS MANY AS THEY DO AND A NUMBER OF THEM USE THE SAME BAT THRU THERE LINEUP AS WELL.

3. OUR GAMES DOWN THERE WERE RUNNING 1HOUR 15 MINS TO 1HOUR 30 MINS AND GAMES ARE BASED TIME WISE ON 1 HOUR SO BY THE TIME YOU GOT TO THE END OF THE NIGHT PLAYERS WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW LONG IT WAS BEHIND.

4. CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG BUT YALL ONLY HAVE 3 GAMES ON THE NATIONAL FIELD ON TUESDAY WITH THE SENIORS BATS, ALL OTHER FIELDS USE ASA BATS SO HOW DO YOU GET 6 GAMES?

5. YOU MADE MENTION OF THE POSSIBLE SHAVED BATS DID NOT BECOME A FACTOR AT ALL. THE OLD HIT THE BOTTOM THIRD OF THE BALL AND IT WOULD SAIL OUT .... DIDNT HAPPEN POP OUTS YOU HAD TO HIT IT STRAIGHT ON TO GET A DEEP ONE.

SORRY IF THIS THREAD TOOK A LEFT TURN, WE NOW RETURN YOU TO LEAGUE BAT TOURNEYS

JESSE
Aug. 27, 2010
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2665 posts
Jessie, I stand corrected, 3 games. The stats showed 6 and I wasn't thinking clearly ;). The total at bats (233) is correct. I'm waiting for this past Tuesday's results to be posted.
Before installation of the new fences none of the 4 fields were exactly 300, one 296, one 305 and two 298. Not enough difference unless you can only hit it 301 :).
As for #3, either pay you more or change the time limits. At Hobgood we play 55 minutes and one more inning.
We have 6:30, 7:30 and 8:30 games, no more 9:30 games.
Donny C, we also voted on bats but here in our National league the senior bats won by a very large percentage. The American, Masters and Legends still use ASA bats.
I wouldn't have a problem playing with furnished bats (I won the 2004 SPA 55+ hr derby with furnished bats) but that would really cut into the bat companies profits. I don't believe that would ever happen on a regular basis.
And yes Jessie, I respect you. For those of you that don't know Jessie, he's one of the best upmpires around!
See you around!
Aug. 27, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
gary c,yes i do think we need to go to a safer ball,there is the 52-275 classic + that would do us fine and let the composite hero's still use their bats.i have used it playing with the kids in usssa tourney's and the ball travels fine.i feel if i can hit .700 with it, all these hero's should be able to.
our senior league uses ASA rules and equipment with no complaints.
to me its just to much ego prol's here.
Aug. 29, 2010
gary c
411 posts
I played senior baseball until I was 55
but they startrd to let ex pros into the league and the last year that I played Jose Canceso was in the league and I brought up at a meeting he is going to kill someone with an aluminum bat if he hits a ball up the middle. Bret Sabergan who only plays shortstop on one of the teams said if he was pitching he would walk him everytime he came to bat.It's alot easier to hit a softball than fielding it when you get older. Keep the game safe or at least give some of us the chance to play in tournaments who enjoy a closer game to real baseball where defense is as important as hitting.
Aug. 30, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The point is that hitting is not only
easier it's more fun than D
and that's why lively bats and balls
are a must.
We played in Vegas last weekends
with the great 44 x 375 balls
and senior bats and had a blast
and no pitcher got hurt.
Are you guys listening.
Gary Deaton, Paddy Mac, Clatta,
Too Tall and other big time
senior hitters were there
and they were all going to the left a
and right side and not by chance.
There were 2 hot balls hit up the middle
on me the whole time which is a couple less than normal.
With home runs as singles after 12
the big boys all go left and right
which is what I've said all along
is all we need to keep our game
reasonably safe.
Make the rubber wider/longer.
Make the plate wider/longer.
Go to a 1-1 count.
Increase the arc limits 1 foot in both
directions- 13 x 5 and
let's play ball.
Aug. 30, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
No Joe, the point is many of us are sick and tired of hearing about offense and how important it is erroneously stated. Many of us would like to have more chances catching a ground ball rather then see it flash by us.
Many of us are tired of the ridiculous changes taking place and those that are being suggested.
We play Slo Pitch because we love it why change something you love so much?
You often tell those of us who dont want the lively bats and ball to start our own Game. To this I say, our game has been around far longer then the current game with lively bats.
If you need that thrill to play Slo Pitch thats fine, but dont try to change the game many of us love. Its our game too!
Aug. 30, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey John.
Great seeing you.
You can have your game.
Just leave ours alone.
I don't care if you want to play with
dumbed down bats and balls.
Knock yourself out.
Just leave us, a la LVSSA and NorCal alone to enjoy ourselves as we see fit.
Simple really.
Live and let live.
Aug. 30, 2010
gary c
411 posts
We don't need hot bats and balls to compete that is the guys who grew up playing the real game(baseball and fast pitch softball)now we want to play slow pitch with equipment that measures each ones talent not who can spend the most for a bat. Lets play the real game THATS WHAT REAL FUN IS and the rest can play BEER LEAGUE SOFTBALL
Aug. 30, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe, I'm not sure where you saw me but It most likely wasnt me, except Reno.
I dont see anyone trying to change LVSSA or NorCal. Nor do I see or hear anyone trying to change our game in general, other then you. Everything I advocate has been part of our game since day one.
Most everything you advocate revolves around changing the game. From more lively equipment and balls to screens, counts, free defensive subbing, bigger mats, higher or unlimited arc, the suggested changes go on and on.
I say to you, keep your changes in NorCal if you like them that much, but leave the true Senior Ball alone. Its done very well without them.
You seem to want to put your stamp on Senior Softball by changing the very fabric it was built on.
The true majority doesnt want any more change.
Aug. 30, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
E4 and gary C, wisely put. WE are not the ones trying to change the game. Slow pitch has always been a hitter’s game (versus fast pitch), but until less than ten years ago it was always a balanced game with defense, base running, and strategy being important as well.

It is only with the advent of the composite bat that the game has radically changed—first with pipsqueaks like me able to hit home runs after half of century of NEVER hitting a home run, then with all the new rule changes and suggestions to try to bring safety and sanity back to the game.

The easy solution? Eliminate the super bats. Another solution? Reduce the liveliness of the ball so that guys can keep their composite bats (I like mine for their balance as well as their pop) and still return to the balanced game we all grew up playing and loving.

And don’t get snookered by einstein’s claims about NorCal. The majority of players I talk to in NorCal want to eliminate the lively bat/ball combo of the past few years. Sure, they are not Major + players, and most of them are over 60, but these guys make up the majority of NorCal.

Sadly, NorCal team participation as a percentage of senior softball players available is dropping. Why? Different ideas why. One that rings with me is the number of older players I talk to who stop playing league/tournament softball after decades of playing it. And the reasons? Bats too expensive; game too hot; not as much fun chasing balls on ever increasing size fields; discouraged by inability to field grounders like they used to; focus on home runs and long balls to exclusion of all the other factors in softball; and for pitchers—safety as reflexes decline. It’s not entry fees and travel expenses. Guys can afford that like they used to for a hobby they love. It’s the other things that are turning them to fishing or golf or non-composite bat leagues or whatever.

So, live and let live as einstein says. Those who want to hit 350, 400, 450 foot home runs can form associations and tournaments with a ball as lively as they want and no restriction on the liveliness of bats—why stop at 1.21? Gary had a name for it: “Beer League Softball”. The rest of us would like to keep playing the game we loved before it was wrenched away by new technology and fragile egos.
Aug. 30, 2010
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
400 posts
Sorry to step on a thread that was about league bats but it seems to have evolved.

I like SSUSA just the way it is. Decent ball and great bat. There is lots of "D" in the game I play at the AAA level of either 50 or 60 and opportunity for occasional HR's. Why change anything? It's too much fun as is...

Aug. 30, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Right on, EV.
Hey John.
The heat at 106 degrees
must've gotten to my
fragile ego brain.
I have NEVER talked to one player,
not one who ever wanted to play with a crappy bat and/or ball.
Not one, ever.
Not in NorCal or anywhere else
We, all the associations have spoken.
1.21 bats and good 44 x 375 balls
just like in SSUSA and NorCal.
The majority of players are being
recognized and served as we speak.
There's always whiners, n'eer do wells
and folks who honestly disagree
with anything but they don't, shouldn't and won't change a thing.

Lively bats and balls forever
and free defensive subbing
is a great idea for senior ball
especially when playing
in 106 degree heat.
Aug. 30, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
As I've noted before, einstein is a force of nature, a buoyant personality, a man sure of himself. A teammate I would love to play with. I doubt if he talks to many people who disagree with ANY of his opinions—at least while he is proclaiming to them.

And I agree with him. I, too, have never talked to one player who ever wanted to play with a "crappy bat and/or ball." I've talked to many, many who would like to play with less lively balls (as mad dog and others have promoted for months) and/or ASA bats, or the hottest bat available in 2002, or even the single walls that dominated the game 15-20 years ago. I've even talked to one guy who wanted to go back to wooden bats.

"Crappy" is just a term einstein uses to denigrate any bat other than a super composite bat that gives him the 350+ home run.
Aug. 31, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
It's just like politics-all in the spin. You are right Omar, crappy is in the eye of the beholder. The bats that came before the composites were the latest technology and we all were excited about them at the time. A return to those bats would take the edge off of ball velocity and distance, but still provide a bat with plenty of pop if you hit it well. Now that we have been spoiled by the composites and hitting missiles all over, it would be hard to go back and find out you really can't hit .850 with 100 homeruns at age 58 with a regular bat.
Free defensive subbing? Sounds like we are breeding a batch of Manny Ramirez's for softball-one dimensional players(yes, he can hit, but can't run, catch or throw anywhere near major league level).
Aug. 31, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Webbie,
After coming through last weekend
with Friday's temperature
at 106 in Vegas,
free defensive subbing would be
a blessing for most to all teams.
A chance to give a guy a break
for an inning or two with a guy
stuck on the bench.
Sounds like a win-win-win proposition
all the way around.
More guys playing and having fun,
getting timely breaks in the field
and all can be implemented
without a scintilla of stress.
The "O" line up remains exactly the same with the same rules in place.
If the game is changed at all
to enhance senior play
and maybe it never should have been,
then free defensive subbing makes
a ton of sense.

Aug. 31, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
i've yet to meet anyone who has ever said that all they would be willing to do is play defense and not hit,that is the most absurd statement anyone has ever made,and i'll go as so far too say you haven't met anyone either.oh by the way we already have free defensive subs,its called hitting as many as you want and rotating players in for defense.

like omar and webbie have said,crap is in the eyes of the beholder,i guess you didn't have fun before you became a composite hero.i have always had fun playing, especially when competing on the field regardless of what equipment is used,and i have been playing since the late 60's.
Sept. 1, 2010
gary c
411 posts
I think hitting is fun to but that is only part of the game. Fielding and base running are fun also why not bring that back into the game. With the hot bats some pitcher is going to get killed if not why do the wear masks and even with that a line drive in the chest could could do the same unless you want them to wear full catchers gear out there. Have some tournaments with league type bats and see how they turn out and then make a decision.
There is room for both kind of tournaments I have played in one of the few tournaments that have only single wall bats in all honesty had more fun than in any hot bat tournaments I have ever played in. Just because you win a long drive contest do you think you can play in the PGA.
Sept. 2, 2010
gary c
411 posts
For the guys who love the real game keep talking about having tournaments without hot bats.
Sept. 3, 2010
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
Omar, E4E6/ Mad Dog,

It's ridiculous to claim that you are not the ones wanting change.

What have you been whining about the last (almost) 2 years?

I respect all of your opinions, even though I don't agree with them.

If you don't want change, what are you talking about?
Sept. 3, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
i guess asking to play defense again,saving lives,etc is change,if you say so.i think its just trying to be sane and going back to what we once had,a real game.
Sept. 3, 2010
MrBill29
Men's 70
42 posts
Stop all the crying,if it safety stay home wash the car, or go find a stick ball game.
Only lossers bitch
Sept. 3, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Mr Bill losers are guys who never played anywhere else and need a rich kids bat to be a hitter. You take shots at us who are good enough not to need help to be good. We are looking out for guys like you who could get hurt with your lack of talent in the field. Just go order your pitcher of beer and tell every who can hear you how far you can hit the big ball with your bat you bought so you could play with the big kids.
Sept. 3, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Jano23, I call it Return to Sanity. You are right it is still asking for change. The difference is the change I advocate is toward a more balanced game. With fewer rule changes.

MrBill29, what is a LOSSER?
Some of us have concerns about Senior Softball and where its going compared to where it came from. There are of course safety issues with senior bats, there are also fundimental issues that concern me almost as much as safety.
We play on much larger fields 300' + fences, this adds about 1025sq ft more for each fielder to cover, compared to a 265 to 275' fenced yard.
The speed of the ball has increased to the point there almost is no such thing as a routine ground ball, with many taking superior play to field.
I have said before for me its a love hate relationship with Senior Bats and Lively ball, I love to hit the ball hard, but put me on defense and that love turns to hate. Anyone can hit the ball hard not everyone can play affective defense in this era.
And as long as I am paying to play I'll scream, cry and bitch all I choose!

Sept. 3, 2010
chollis
79 posts
Good thread, keep it rolling...one thing though, if you are changing the balls to control the game, make sure you know what you are doing.

The statement:
1. WHEN YOU DO ANYTHING WITH A BALL OR BAT THERE IS ABOUT A 15-20 FOOT DIFFERENCE IN THE DISTANCE OF THE BALL
EXAMPLE 50CORE TO 47CORE , 47CORE TO 44CORE , ASA BATS TO USSSA BATS , USSSA BATS TO SENIOR BATS .

Not exactly true regarding the balls if your looking to tone them down and make it safer.....You should increase the core, not decrease the core while you decrease the compression.
Sept. 3, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
gary c started the thread with a question about having tournaments without the current hot bats. My team enjoys softball, so we would play in any tournament that is well run and relatively affordable (unlike einstein and his friends who claim they would not play in a tournament that didn’t have the lively bats and balls of the last 7 years).

But would we have fun playing in such a tourrnament? Since we have few big boppers (and I am one solely because of the Ultra 2), we would probably win more if the competition returned to the level of say, 2001. Winning more against your peers (those without artificially enhanced power from senior bats) is usually more fun than losing.

We can run, hit for average, field, and use our heads, and without the lively bats of the last half decade, these softball skills would increase in value—the value they had for the last half century! Being affirmed for one’s experience, effort, developed skill, fitness, etc. is usually satisfying and fun.

Like most teams, we have had our share of injuries over the years—a lot of them from declining reflexes, bad hops, or trying beyond our level of fitness (e.g. pulling a hamstring). But also like most teams, we have had some injuries over the past 5 years that come from the super bats producing hard hit balls too fast for aging reflexes to field...or even see in some cases. Anyone killed? Nope. Anyone knocked out for a season? Nope. But unnecessary injuries all the same. That is not fun.

As we age, chasing a ball to the fence, only to watch it sail over, and realize that the batter is a guy who never did that in 20 years, is not fun. Especially when the newer fences are way longer than they used to be and our legs are way weaker than they used to be. Standing stunned as an infielder and seeing a ball roar by us that we would have a chance for with a normal double wall bat is not fun either.

So gary, bring on the tournaments where the very recent super-lively conditions are gone and return to the balanced game of just a decade ago. I suppose this is considered change. I prefer to think of it as a return to the game we have loved and played all our lives.
Sept. 3, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Thanks Omar I think there is room for both kind of tournaments.If some people played in one maybe they would change there minds.
Sept. 3, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
gary, I agree. I have always advocated for "hot bat/ball tournaments" for those who want it. In fact, why stop at the current 1.21 standard for bats. Let them use anything, including altered bats. Just let the majority play in a fair tournament with conditions where defense and other factors are as important as the long 350 foot shot.

I hope we both get a chance to play in tournaments where hot bats are disallowed, and I don't mean just the Ultra II as banned by Big League Dreams parks. As many threads have noted, there are now other bats as hot as the Miken U2. I'm not an anti-Miken man—I'm a pro-balanced-game man.
Sept. 3, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
garyc, I have said this before-when the bats equivalent to the Orange Crush Techfire and EST's came out-they were the hottest thing ever and we thought they were great. There was plenty of offense, but the defense had a chance. The composites were the ones that went over the top. Einstein keeps saying we are headed for 'crappy' balls and bats. Until we got spoiled by the composites, what I am in favor of was not 'crappy', it was top of the line. That is the step back I would like to see.
Sept. 3, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
curt the 52-275 ball would be the answer.the kids use it in usssa over here in dallas and there is no prol with it.they can hit their hrs with it also.you do have to be a good hitter tho,and that is the reason i think a lot of these nay sayers don't want to use it,they are afraid that maybe their abilities or lack of,will come out.
Sept. 3, 2010
jano2323
3 posts
Hi Gary C,

I think your idea of separate tournaments with dead bats and balls is a great idea.

The "silent majority" got tired of arguing about the equipment in SSUSA tournaments a couple of years ago. Only Einstein has maintained the argument on this message board for what most of us want, despite his apparent lack of continuous support from others.

Many of us remember Gary19/The Next Generation for his annoying, repetitious posts on this message board a couple of years ago. I believe Gary is an intelligent man, and I have to admit that he is a quite reasonable poster these days (under his new handle "Dirty").

Omar, E4/E6, Mad Dog, please think about how you compare to this. You guys are like a broken record. My suggestion is that you say what you want to say, and give it a rest. You guys have broken Gary's record for repetitious posts in spades.

I say this with all respect to you guys, but seriously, please think about it!

I think the vast majority of senior softball players would be happy if you guys formed your own new tournaments and played with broom sticks and socks, and stopped trying to change the great tournaments that the SSUSA thankfully provides for those of us who like them.

Jano
Sept. 4, 2010
gary c
411 posts
When you can't argue a point you make stupid coments about people who disagree
with you.I know you would like to play in tournaments that you hit a home run run to first then go to the dugout and open a cold one and laugh and talk about your new rocket powered bat. I respect guys who don't agree with me when they bring up counter points about tournament play but when your posts are so childish I have to wonder if you are in a 5ft and under league for little men. einstein make that a large pitcher and a large pizza Jano will be joining you he want's to show you his big boy bat.
Sept. 4, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Jano, nothing comes easy, Joe continues to advocate Senior equipment, and rule change that favor the style of game that suits him and what he enjoys. There are far more of us who are beginning to understand what that equipment has fundamentally done to the game we have played, for in many instances 50+ years.
I realize change occurs, those who favor the faster more offensive game must also realize that.
I have said many times I do enjoy hitting the Senior bats and balls, I have also said I dont enjoy them when playing defense. The little balance we used to have is almost gone due to the Senior Bat.
Point and counter point. Its what we do.
Sept. 4, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
jano, thanks for your observation on frequent postings. It's something to think about. I suppose guys who are passionate about the sport (like einstein who advocates for the recent changes of the last decade...and wants even more like screens, free substitution, etc.) try to convince others to their positions.

But I also think it has something to do with the reader's own perspective, not necessarily a neutral one. You, obviously, like hot bats and lively balls and are in einstein's camp on this topic. So when someone defends the conditions that existed in slow pitch softball for half a century, up until this millennium, you feel threatened. This can distort one's objectivity.

dirty, for example, has posted over 1250 times under his NEW moniker. I have posted 336 times, E4/E6 has posted 532 times: seems like neither of us comes close to beating dirty "in spades" as you say.

Now mad dog, he is a fervent poster and clocks in at 1495, not all of them about game conditions, of course. But if you want real advocacy, look at einstein with 2282, and he seldom forgets to include his argument for "lively bats and lively balls" no matter what the topic. Now that is "in spades!"

The most frequent poster? Probably taits at 2677, but he seldom enters in to this discussion on game conditions.

P.S. Your rate of posting at 78 is only 23% as frequent as mine, but my rate is only 15% as frequent as einstein's! Who should make their point and let it rest? LOL
Sept. 4, 2010
gary c
411 posts
I guess when you can't play defense you want to play video softball. einstein and Jano get your x box out and you two can play hit ball far. I know when your a lifetime DH you don't want defense in the game. I guess if I never played ball when I was a kid I woulden't know anything about the great game and how it should be played.
Sept. 4, 2010
DCPete
235 posts
Seems like there should be some happy medium out there when it comes to the bat/ball combo, but no one on this board seems willing or able to come up with it.
The Ultras & other senior composites are probably much hotter than any legal metal bats ever made but at the same time the old 50 cor, Worth Super Blue 48 cor & Dudley 47/525 balls were much hotter than todays 44/375's & especially the new 52/275's.
So those advocating a return to metal bats or ASA 98mph composites in combination with 44/375 or 52/275 balls are actually suggesting that the game be dumbed down below what it was before the advent of the "senior" composites.
The middle ground might be using ASA 98mph composites with the old 47/525 ball (basically the way it was right before the Ultra 2's) but it seems unlikely that any association will ever go back to using a higher compression ball now that everything we do is subject to liability issues.
Sept. 4, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
jano maybe you should rethink what you have said,but if your anything like joey boy,you never will.the game has change so much for the offense,we have lost the defensive side of the game.defenders used to be able to go into the hole and get balls,now you just watch them go flying by.i pride myself on D and have the ability to read a hitter at the start of his swing and where the pitch is thrown(playing middle inf)to start for the hole that a batter is trying to hit into.with this hot bat/ball combo it is useless as rockets are hit.where i could get 4-5 steps into the hole,is now more like 2-3 as a ball goes whizzing by.

DCpete,in theory you have a good idea,but according to the hot bat/ball combo guy/s there will be a ton of cheating,with shaving of the bats.this 9is the reason i advocate changing 1 thing only and that is to the 52-275 ball.we can still use our hero bats and won't have to go out of pocket to replace them.i have played with this ball and it performs good enough to allow all facets of the game to be enjoyed(hrs,defense,etc).the only thing will be is that you'll have to put in the time to make yourself an all around hitter,instead of a composite hero and swing from the heels to see how far you can hit it.

ok on the 98 mph bats back before the ultra was brought out,well that was before break in batted ball speed,after break in these bats could be well into the 100's.
Sept. 5, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
DCPete-while advocating a step back on bats, I have also advocated a livelier ball equivalent to what we hit with them before in other threads. 50 cor, 47/525 were good balls with the bats that they had then. Remember, the 50 cor got banned(at least here) for being too lively, and we went to the 47/525, and the 44. None of these combos remotely approached the liveliness of the current bats/balls. I agree with you on the medium ground.It doesn't have to go to the 'crappy' combo that Einstein fears, just a step back.
Sept. 5, 2010
gary c
411 posts
To me the last couple of posts are how you get things done. Again I think if you want to play with hot bats fine but whats wrong with both kind of tournaments? That way you can measure your talents in a wider range.
Sept. 5, 2010
Jose #12
Men's 60
86 posts
gary c, I agree with most of your post. I do think there should be tournaments for everyone's liking (I've had these discussions previously with Omar).

I play in single wall and wood bat leagues, but much prefer the senior bats.

I'm not a homerun hitter nor is my travel team, a 60 AAA. We recently went undefeated in a tournament without one homerun.

So not everyone who prefers the pace of a senior bat tournament want to hit the ball 350-400 feet. So don't catagorize everyone who prefer senior bats as one dimensional.
Sept. 5, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Jose#12
My posts at being one dimensional are directed at people that think the other game is a step back into the dark ages.If you like hot bats fine but I think you have to admit that for us who think defense is as important and as much fun as hitting we do have a valid point. I grew up in a game that if you hit the ball in the sweet spot you were rewarded now you hit a ball on the handle or toward the end of the bat you have a good chance of getting a base hit.I respect your opinion and I see your point. The shots I posted were toward those who think if you think different then them you should stay home and wash your car.These are the guys I feel are scared they coulden't compete unless they have a hot bat. I do not think that of you.
Sept. 5, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
yes jose you can do it,but also those base hits are going a lot harder than we used to see before the hero bat explosion.i have hit balls that inf'ers didn't have a chance at(and have got a few hurt),i have also hand cuffed OF'ers,with this hot combo of ours.we do not need this combo to have fun,going to the 52-275 ball will let us still play and use the senior bat also if you like.
Sept. 5, 2010
Jose #12
Men's 60
86 posts
mad dog, I've tried the 52-275 and didn't like it at all. The only one's that I saw have sucess with it were the those that could spin the ball.

I agree the hits are harder/faster with senior bats, but that is part of the fun. It's not that much faster/harder than when we used metal bats and the 47/525's.

At least at the AAA level, good defenses keep you compettitive, even with the senior equipment.

To each his own, we are all 50+ and still playing ball, how bad can it be.
Sept. 5, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
as like you jose i play in the 60 age group,and same div(AAA).i still can make the kids jump even with ASA equipment,now with senior equipment i can get a ball on an inf real quick,let alone hit one at a pitcher.with our senior equipment we don't have good defense,we get lucky.
now as being able to hit as hard with the older equipment we used to use,never gonna happen,no way will a metal bat ever hit as hard as a composite.

on the ball,when did you try it,what maker made it.i have hit the worth hot dot classic+ and have had no prol with it,when playing against the kids and usssa bats.
by the way to get a ball to carry(no matter what spec ball you hit)you need to spin it anyways,why would you not be able to spin this one,its the natural way to hit anyways.you hit a ball dead center it knuckles and no carry,just physics.
Sept. 6, 2010
jano2323
3 posts
Omar, Mad Dog, E4/E6,
Thanks for your reasoned and measured responses.
Unfortunately, I can't say the same for Gary C's hypocritical name-calling, insulting responses.
I truly endorse a "parallel" solution where you guys find satisfaction without screwing up the fun the rest of us are having.
By the way, it's not clear to me that the person who wants to hit a HR is more of an ego-ist than the one who wants to make a defensive play. I reject your ridiculous arguments that the people in "my" camp are insecure jerks who want to hit HRs to make themselves feel better. Maybe Gary C and Mad Dog can have pizza and beer and talk about their technologically-reduced gloves. :-)
By the way, Gary C, anyone who can see well enough to play softball would never approve me playing in a 5 ft. and under league, no matter how childish I may appear. LOL :-)
BTW, I'd love to have some pizza and beer with Einstein (maybe even you!).
Jano
Sept. 6, 2010
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
jano, you make a good point about the egotistic defensive players. One of the biggest egotistic players I know is a slick-fielding shortstop...but not as slick as he thinks. Sometimes he makes the smooth, no-look play at a sharply hit ground ball, but the ball ends up rolling into left field as he fires an "air ball" to first!

But I am confused over the preference for the recent composite bats along with a lively ball. They are certainly more expensive and break more frequently than the double-wall of old. If not the long ball home run, what is the appeal versus the hot bat of 2002, for example? einstein and others constantly point to the home run shot and seem to live for it (although I acknowledge that einstein, and others like yourself, no doubt just love to play fast, hard-hitting competitive softball). But that fun game was just as valid in 2001 with the bats of that day. E4/E6, mad dog, Webbie, myself and others just yearn to return to those standards.
Sept. 6, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Jano
You are the one who told us to go play with broom sticks and socks. I have read posts who don't agree with me and responded in an adult fashion because they were thoughtful and intelligent you on the other hand talk down to those that don't agree with you and einstein. I never said hitting is not fun I just said using a hot bat makes it a lot easier. The comment that you belong in a 5ft and under league was in reference to you having small mans disease you could be 7ft it's your thinking not your stature. You want us to form are own league and go away I never said that is what I wanted because I am not afraid to compete under your rules but I believe you are afraid to play by are's because you couldn't. I do not think this of the people who disagree with me just the ones who insinuate that just because we think differently we are trying to ruin the game. In closing I would have pizza anytime but let me order I'll have a pepperoni and my friend Jano will have a DOUBLE STEROID
Sept. 6, 2010
pushin60
Men's 60
63 posts
Gary C, I have no dog in this fight, but I’ve read your posts and you are the one who initiated the name calling. And now anyone who prefers to use a senior bat takes steroids? That is laughable. I prefer to use senior bats because I have played in leagues that allow ASA only, and more that a few people are using cheater bats. And it isn’t only the kids in the open leagues, because one of these leagues is senior only. Allowing senior bats gives you the best chance of not getting screwed by gutless cheaters looking for any advantage to make themselves look better. Oh, and one other thing. I recommend that before you post, you take a few moments and then re-read what you have written. That might save you from posting something that you might regret. For instance, I might write that you must be like the “egotistic, slick fielding shortstop who thinks he is better than he is” that Omar referred to, or maybe one of the bat cheaters looking for and advantage in a tournament where everyone else is using ASA bats. If I did that I would be wrong because I don’t know you and would be remiss in making an inaccurate statement about someone that I don’t know. Thanks for listening.
Sept. 6, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
jano2323,our gloves are now technologically reduce,so you agree the bats have gotten hotter than ever.

pushin60,i play in a asa senior league,we don't have the prol you speak of with our seniors here,now with the kids there is a prol.maybe you should be talking to the LD and chase the damn cheaters out of your league.i have no prol calling someone out that i see trying to cheat.if your not part of the solution,you part of the problem.
Sept. 6, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Pushing 60
I never said that anyone who uses hot bats takes steroids.I said Jano was having a steroid pizza(JOKE) I am sure that people that use hot bats don't use sterodis. I was told to stay home and wash my car and to play with broom sticks and socks but I guess that's ok because those people agree with you. It must be sad to be in a league with cheaters but I didn't know that anyone who uses a hot bat never cheats. What land do you life in? I am not an egotist
I don't even play shortstop I am an ex catcher and third baseman(in baseball) now just a third baseman. I know what it's like to have a rocket hit at me and have to get in front of it. Again my thought is you should be rewarded when you hit a ball solid but not when you don't. Using cheaters as a reason not to have tournaments with ASA bats is rediculous in my past posts I said if someone is caught cheating they should be banned from all senior softball.
Most senior players play by the rules you just happen to be in a league with some cheaters don;t let that fog your mind about us who want to play a more rounded game.
Sept. 7, 2010
gary c
411 posts
I Think there is no doubt that we have discussed this enough to see there is plenty of interest in no hot bat tournaments . I think there is every reason to worry about cheaters but if the people in charge made it clear that if caught you were banned for life and made sure all bats were checked that would not stop all but almost all the cheaters and when a few were caught and banned for life it would show they meant business and it would stop.. I still don't understand the fear of having both kinds of tournaments . I have never and never would want to have just no hat bat tournaments because both sides deserve to play the game they enjoy most and also have the opportunity to play both. I hope the people in charge would take this under consideration and let us know the outcome.
Thank You


Sept. 7, 2010
brian warner
Men's 55
53 posts
What about AA being required to use ASA bats. AAA required to use U-trip bats. And Major & Major Plus use the bats we use now? So if you believe that the game has become a homerun derby. You drop down to level you feel safe playing.
Sept. 7, 2010
UMP IN NORTH GA.
47 posts
BRIAN WROTE :
What about AA being required to use ASA bats. AAA required to use U-trip bats. And Major & Major Plus use the bats we use now? So if you believe that the game has become a homerun derby. You drop down to level you feel safe playing.

GREAT IDEA IT MAYBE HARDER TO GET PAST THE RULES MAKERS .. AFTER ALL THERE ARE ALOT OF PLAYERS IN THE MIDDLE THYAT HAVE THE SENIOR BATS THAT HAVE PAID BIG BUCKS TO GET THEM TO SHELVE THEM .. MAYBE A 2 YEAR PROGRAM TO GET READY FOR IT SO THEY CAN SELL THEM TO MAJOR PLAYERS OR GET THERE USE OUT OF THEM ..
Sept. 7, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Dr. Mr Warner and Ump in Georgia,
Who said anything about being afraid of playing with hot bats. I have said someone could be hurt with hot bats but it is more about bringing defense back into the game. I feel that was a shot at people like me who feel that we would like a game more like baseball. As for guys with hot bats and can't afford to buy another bat then they can play in hot bat tournaments or use someone else's if they would want to play in both.
Sept. 7, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
guys i think we can keep the bats and all we need to use is the 52-275 ball.i have played a bunch of tourney's(with the kids) with this ball
(we have been using the worth hot dot,classic+) with usssa bats.there has been no prol what so ever in getting good hits and scoring runs.this ball traveled real good for distance also.just use your regular swing and you'll be ok.now unless you really uppercut balls,than all you'll do is hit some sky-pops,LOL.a good level swing,with either a slight downward or upward motion so as not to hit it dead center.i have seen all the different kinds of hits with this ball,lines dr,long line dr,long fly hr's,line dr hrs,so what more do you want.the ball plays well and we get to use our hero bats and don't have to worry about the cheater bats, and oh yeah we get to play a more rounded game as defense has been added back to it and keep ourselves from getting seriously or even die.
Sept. 8, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Mad Dod
Sounds good but then the guys who want the game to stay the same will be upset.
Sept. 8, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
brian not feasible as the MAJORITY would complain.what about having the most talented players(major +) use the ASA bat as they would still will be able to hit it hard like the MAJORITY of the players want to do,well according to some,oh i mean the MAJORITY.have the MAJOR and AAA use USSSA bats and let AA use the senior bats as they are the lesser talented players and need the senior bat to hit hard and have fun.

gary maybe they should get over it,the 52-275 ball allows all types of play to happen,good hit balls(also hard hit) and defense,how about that for a good combo.
Sept. 8, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
So as not to hit dead center
which is the intuitive solution
to hitting anything hard and well.
Using a ball that can't be center struck
and go anywhere is counter intuitive
and will increase frustration
and tension into our game
making it less and less satisfying
as time goes on.
There was/is never the need to go
to lesser equipment.
It's all been smoke and mirrors,
a ton of self interest by some players,
TDs and marketeers.
There aren't/haven't been more injuries
since the U2 was introduced and lively bats and balls is the only way
to truly enjoy our game.
LVSSA really brought out the point
that even in hell-like conditions
if you have a good bat/ball combo
the boys will still have a good time.
Sept. 8, 2010
gary c
411 posts
Mad dog
I don't think we can do anything to make guys like einstein happy because unless we do things his way we can't have fun.He knows stats on people getting hurt because he knows all.You never should use lesser equipment because without a U2 you might not be good enough without it.As for frustration that is reading posts(2286) by someone who thinks he knows all. Mad dog the ball you talk about must not be round because you can't hit it in the center. Did you know that? My question is why are some people so afraid of having to play a more rounded game?
Sept. 9, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Another anonymous determiner
of right and wrong.
Hollow and pathetic as his argument,
sir or madam or coach or marketeer
or TD.
We, the most of us,
want and will play with lively bats
and balls or we don't play.
There's no convincing reason
or set of reasons to change our game.
Never has been.
We been Viet Nammed and/or Iraqed
into thinking a holy war
must be fought to keep
the masses from straying.
Just a ton of self interest
and ignorance parading around
as legitimate, unbiased opinions.
And besides, we won.
1.21 bats and 44x375 balls or better
is all we been using all year long
and unlike some of the word-patriots
who show up with rhetoric and nothing else I/we won't play if the standards continue to deteriorate.
Sept. 9, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Even I admit that there is a part of me that would hate to give up the feeling you get from launching a home run that needs a flight number and stewardesses. Of course, I have always looked for the 'hottest' bat to compete with. You can't fight machine guns with a Saturday Night Special. Stepping back to 'less lively' equipment (not crappy) would initiate the 'spoiled' effect and would be tough to take for a while. It happened in the 80's when they banned the 'hot' balls and, if they ban these bats, it will happen again. We got over it. Increase cheating? If you cheat at softball, you probably cheat at life. Probably would increase cheating for the guys that couldn't handle having to learn to hit the ball on the sweet spot again, instead of just hitting it with a bat that is 90% sweet spot. Technology has increased efficiency of equipment in most sports, but has it been beneficial?? Bowling had to come up with a whole new set of rules for dressing the lanes, ball weighting, etc. A 900 series was almost impossible, but now there have been several. It spoils the magic of having that 'unattainable' goal. Tennis you now see 130+ mph serves, and racquet heads as big as the ball that drops on New Year's Eve in NYC (maybe they need a bigger court now?). In golf they are having to build larger courses (is a 700 yard par 5 and a 300 yard par 3 far away?), and softball has had to enact several rules to combat the increased scoring and increased home runs, and as a result, much longer games. Attempts have been made to protect pitchers, and we also are bringing larger and larger fields into play. Litigation? 25 years ago who would have even thought about it? Senior legs make covering the increased outfield area difficult. (It's not just 20 more feet, the area to cover goes up exponentially). Mere mortals now achieve feats that one could only dream of before because of the equipment. And probably the biggest question-you know technology keeps advancing. How are we going to react when they come out with a bat that adds another 5 mph and 30-50 feet? Is it time for standards that the bat manufacturers cannot circumvent with technology? Where are we going with all this?
Sept. 9, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Can you imagine if they dumbed down
baseballs, golfballs, tennis balls, basketballs, or footballs
because it would make the game slower/safer what the response would be?
C'mon, man.
There has never been good reasons
to use lesser equipment.
As Gary has often said
if you can't play the game the way
it was meant to be played
it's time join those playing checkers
and lawn bowling.
We been looking to play with good/better
bats and balls since we was babies.
I just got finished playing 2 weekends
in Las Vegas in three divisions with the hottest bat/ball combo in senior ball and didn't get hurt
or even close to it.
We have much great injustices
and inequities to face up to and deal with and I think it's easier for us
to argue and debate about softball stuff
than the larger, more important stuff
like War, Global warming, education,
taxes, health care just to name a few.
I think we may be guilty of displacing
what is really bothering us
with something that's easier and less painful to discuss and consider.
Leave us and softball alone.
We're having fun and are entitled to it
without reservation or guilt.
Sept. 9, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Joe my friend, let me remind you, "THIS" is a softball thread. If we want to talk World politics we can call in to one of the many talk shows or threads on the subjects mentioned.
You ask if it can be imagined slowing down other sports? Who cares, unless you actually play them.
Would you walk out on a no Giants hitter? We seen near par win one of the Major golf events this year, not 25 under like so many others.
Since steriods have been taken away from the spoiled masses, scores in all sports are lower. Funny isnt it? They still play and attendance is at all time highs even with the lousy economy.
Our steriods are our Senior Bats and Lively Balls. Take them away and we will bitch and moan, we will however get over it and play the game.
Sept. 9, 2010
gary c
411 posts
From bats to war that's when you know when someone is losing an argument when they change the subject. einstein while you go play softball my grandson is a Marine in harms way. How dare you use this site to make political statements. Go paint a flower on your big boy bat you jerk. Maybe if you did something to better this world you wouldn't spend so much time on this site 2289 posts then you could tell us how we should do things. Having a battle of ideas with you is like having a fist fight with a man with no arms.
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