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Online now: 1 member: dillydilly; 8 anonymousDiscussion: Pitching rules for Western Worlds July 12-17
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| July 7 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | There's going to be controversy and resentment created in this tournament I contend by the lack of clarity surrounding U-trip vs ASA style/character of pitching. Be ready for it one and all. We believe that ASA style is characterized by the lack of intention to distract the batter by overt movements, demeanor and behavior. I've talked with a NUMBER of players, umps and association executives and most everyone agrees that the SSUSA rule book and style which is derived from ASA clearly supports sportsmanlike behavior regarding trying to distract the batter in both character and rule. U-trip is a different style from a different association that some players have been introducing this year and should be checked at the door. Offenders can be ejected by rule for ONE violation. Remember. The batter can step out and ask for time and clarification at any time any pitcher is perceived unlawful in his conduct. |
| July 7 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | einstein has a point, probably because he is planning to protest any pitching style he doesn't like to make his point. There should be a clarification of what is within the parameters of SSUSA pitching. But einstein's termination of some pitching styles as distracting and therefore "unsportsmanlike" behavior is a very, very gray area, perhaps one where einstein, himself, could be considered in violation. Maybe some of you haven’t seen einstein pitch. I have, many times. He is a very good pitcher, although I have often seen him play third, and well. But part of his excellent pitching is that he does deliberately distract the batter, although if I were an ump I would never call him on it. First, he doesn’t wear a cap, and on a windy day his long hair is blowing around in a distracting manner. Sounds trivial, but for a batter new to einstein, it isn’t. Second, he often talks to the batter, the ump, his catcher. He grins a lot and enjoys himself. It is part of the joy of watching him play, but it is definitely distracting to the batter, even illegal at times. I wouldn’t call it as an ump, but some uptight umps could call it since it distracts the batter’s focus. Third, he often steps to his right of the rubber and pitches without taking a step. This is always distracting to a newer batter, and particularly so since it isn’t his standard delivery. Fourth, he varies height more than most pitchers, from legally low (usually) to legally high (usually). Of course this is distracting when you are expecting a pitch a little more centered in the zone. Fifth, he has a very decent knuckle ball. On a windy day, it is very distracting and many a batter has mishit it or even fouled out. Again, the result of a distracting motion of the ball, deliberately intended by the pitcher. Sixth, he will occasionally back up rapidly on some batters WHILE THE PITCHED BALL IS IN THE AIR! Of course, he is backing up to better field a potential ball up the middle, but it is very distracting because he doesn’t generally do this. It isn’t so simple to determine what is deliberately distracting and what isn’t...or even what constitutes a distraction. I would consider shouting, running at the batter, throwing one’s glove in the air, no continuous motion, and a few other tricks as illegally distracting, and none of them have I observed with einstein, but there is no doubt that einstein, as a pitcher, is deliberately trying to mess with the batter’s mind and concentration. And I have seen some batters that I think deliberately tried to hit him because of it. |
| July 7 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | Guys, It's still "slow pitch softball", I don't care if he stands on his head and pitches.it's only coming at 5-10 mph.......not rocket science.HIT IT.......Your suppose to be watching the ball .,not he guy that pitches it ! |
| July 7 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Thanks for all the cudos and recognition. You shouldn't have but you did. Like I with Donny, you have given me attention and importance any good pitcher worth his weight in salt would love. Thanks, again. The next guy I strike out is dedicated to you. Now. Key to the rule is character and intention and what is considered normal in the evolution of style You know when someone is -ucking with you, don't you Omar. I do. You can feel it sometimes without knowing exactly where and why from whence it comes. This is what the rule is for and about. It's all the judgment of the ump about what is over and above what is normal. Purposeful, in your face, over and above distraction is U-trip style. It does not characterize the ASA derived NorCal/SSUSA style as I'm sure you'd agree. A knuckleball is a legal traditional pitch. It's not meant to distract in any unsportsmanlike way. Nobody thinks it does but some intellectual who might have a problem seeing the forest for the trees or with another axe to grind. My hair, all 3 of them, by no means intend to distract any batter and everyone gets it save some intellectual trying to sharpen one of his blades. Let's get back to the issue and thanks for popularizing it and me. ASA style pitching is by character and rule. Anyone who's been playing for the last 10 years knows this. New young guys are challenging us and our tradition and style. We simply must/should say no thank you son. Well done but that's U-trip and not us. Ball one. Do it again and you can be ejected by rule 6.8 (2) of the pitching regulation section of the ASA and SSUSA pitching code: DISTRACTING THE BATTER A fielder shall not take a position in the batter’s line of vision or, with deliberate unsportsmanlike intent, act in a manner to distract the batter. A pitch does not have to be released. NOTE: The offending player shall also be ejected from the game. Notice it says DELIBERATE unsportsmanlike intent which is and should always/only be judged by the umpire. You can argue intellectually the moon is made of green cheese or the effect of a wind up, any wind up is distraction. Good lord, OMAR what would become of us if the intellectuals ever take us over but thanks again for the props and recognition. |
| July 7 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Anyone who knows me would know I'm a truly friendly person in the flesh. I'm a middle child and love people and have a problem maintaining my competitive edge in a game against ex teammates or friends. I've taken myself out of games because I couldn't bear down against some opponents. So again, my talking to players whenever and whatever is usually to be inclusive, friendly and representative of my recognition and acceptance of all human beings equally and without condition as in we are all God's children, Omar, aren't we. But thanks for all the attention and recognition, truly. I'm at a stage of my life/career professionally and personally where almost no publicity is bad publicity. I like winning Omar but the contest needs to be fair to create a champion. We, the baby boomers were trained by fundamental elements of sportsmanlike intent where we were supposed to put all our energy on ourselves and our performance and not on/against our opponents. To root for ourselves and not against our competitors. You remember, don't you? The ASA style from which SSUSA has deep cultural roots in our personalities that is being challenged and rightly so by those who did not grow up and learn as we did. We are the elders and in charge and we must recognize, admonish and teach them of what is still the character of us and our game i.e. sportsmanlike intentions en route to becoming champions. |
| July 8 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Einstein-mind games and more mind games. You create controversy before the tournament even starts. I have to wonder why this just now has come up. Surely Donny has been doing these things for years. Sportsmanship or gamesmanship? I think Donny is clearly winning this one right now. |
| July 8 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Were you there Mark in Reno when Dave Dowell was so concerned about the tension and arguing that had marked the games between Sommerville and the Legends? I fell upon the conflict as a witness and not a participant as hard as that may be for you to understand. And Donny is a U-trip guy. He would tell you if he could who will get away with whatever any ump let's him do. The ASA derived style that has characterized us for all the years I've been playing softball is not deceptive and is sportsman-like regarding intentionally distracting the batter. We need to stand up for ourselves and our game, Mark. Is that not considered patriotic or loyal anymore? Standing up for what is right, essential and true? We're not used to, in Softball, Mark, making a stand about anything as none have been taken in years. There's a number of conflicts brewing that need resolution coming down the road. Money, money, money and self interest have been the rule and going along for the ride has been the norm just like in the market place. Thing is, Mark, when you don't know where you're going you always wind up, somewhere else. Dumbing down the bat ball combo is an idea that only works in a laboratory and in one's mind. It has been championed by a zealous few who have the most to gain when any change occurs. It was done by guys who don't know or love us and our game. Shrewd isn't right in my book, Mark not when heart and soul and integrity and our game are involved. The movement to dumb down our equipment is self centered, other directed and will fragment us and our community I'm willing to bet. I wish it doesn't happen but I and my friends are done bleating and pleading like sheep. Time to make/take a stand. |
| July 8 Gary19 Men's 50 2609 posts | I have brought him up before, but anyone here remember Lou Delmastro's "ASA Style"? Or Dick McIntyre's? Pitchers pitch, umpires enforce rules, and batters just hit the big ball moving slowly. Galloway did not whine. Collins did not whine. Waller did not whine. Annoctico did not whine. Smith did not whine. Arndt did not whine. Everyone involved has a role. Can we just create a special bats/special balls/t-ball circuit? |
| July 8 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Joe, OK, I will bite. I have umpired many USSSA tournaments, and it is very easy generally to tell a pitcher that is used to this when doing NSA and ASA games. The pumping and playing is easy to stop with a "dead ball" call. USSSA and BASA are all about what you can get away with which does not translate easily to "regular slowpitch". The biggest thing that I watch for is the whole issue of giving a batter time in the box. In USSSA the batter very specifically has to ask for it, in NSA and ASA this is not the case, and unless the umpire slows the pitcher down with a hand up for time that ball is going to come in without the batter expecting it because as I think you are trying to point out, it is more on the honor system than USSSA. I have a friend who says that I am the only umpire that stops him from pitching between his legs instead of from his hip. I have even mentioned it to other umpires when I caught a pitcher doing that during our game in a tournament. One of the best umpires in the state told me that it was 6 inches from the pitcher's hip (we had a little anatomy lesson later - hip is on the outside, crotch is on the inside). On everything else but pitching I think there is a lot of discretion. It is kind of like verbal interference. Does a person in the stands yelling, "I've got it" make you not field the ball? If I believed it, I would call it, but I never have seen it that way yet. When I played or kept score for my team, I am probably one of the worst offenders at potential verbal interference. I have probably said everything but "I've got it" when the other team was in the field. Joe, it is still just a game. If you think about it too hard, it stops being fun. P.S. I have had 2 different people over the years tell me that you cannot throw a curve ball in slow pitch. I guess that they would be totally mystified by a good knuckle ball and think that was illegal too. |
| July 8 curveball Men's 65 705 posts | Hey Nancy, did you know if those 2 people are betting men? LOL |
| July 8 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | really love it,a grown man crying b/c a pitcher is throwing a ball at less than 25 mph,and might be trying to fool him,wow.the ball has to come to you at less than 25 mph,if your any type of player at all that is not gonna bother you,just play and quit crying............. |
| July 8 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Here's a specific point to wrestle with on this topic that Nancy brings up: is a quick pitch unsportsmanlike? Distracting? More USSSA than SSUSA? I never quick pitch a guy, and in NCSSA and SSUSA, often the umpire will hold up a hand, even if the batter doesn't request it, so it is a waste of effort to deliver the pitch. Why don't I quick pitch? I think it is unsportsmanlike. But does everyone agree? Some say that once the batter steps in the box, he should be ready to hit, and there is no such thing as a quick pitch. But considering the often shoddy state of a batters box, many batters need some time to get proper footing. When I face a quick pitch guy, which is rare, I usually take my time stepping in the box. I adjust my hat; I adjust my belt; I tap my spikes (even on artificial turf); all that to let the pitcher know that I know that he is messing with me. What say you, einstein? |
| July 8 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | omar you are so right,when i spot a quick pitcher,i slow everything down to a point that i hope i annoy the crap out of the pitcher,myself.now if i'm pitching and this same individual comes up to bat,he better be ready to swing as soon as the second foot hits the ground in the box.....pay back is a biotch.... |
| July 8 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | The nature of the quick pitch is that it is deceptive and unsportsmanlike. Why aren't there a cache of behavior that is both deceptive and unsportsmanlike in an attempt to distract the batter??? Fact is there's a ton of 'em. Just watch Donny pitch when the ump's don't have a clue or wit about what the character and rule of ASA style pitching is and you'll see just about every one of 'em. Hi Nancy. Were you aware that any attempt at distracting/deceiving the batter with unsportsmanlike intent is grounds for ejection by any fielder including the pitcher? |
| July 8 Gary19 Men's 50 2609 posts | Joe, is swipe-tagging, missing the man, but selling the call unsportsmanlike? Is trapping a ball in the outfield but holding up the glove and selling the call unsportsmanlike? Is being "in the neighborhood" on a forceout at second unsportsmanlike? It is all, and has always been, part of this game. Players play, umps make calls, the way it is meant to be. |
| July 8 Gary19 Men's 50 2609 posts | Joe, where is this all coming from now? You have been playing for decades, and I have to believe somewhere along the way you have seen pitchers who don't just stand out there imitating a pitching machine. |
| July 8 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Joe, this is not my first rodeo. ;-) Unsportsmanlike conduct is always grounds for ejection no matter the reason. If I really think that the pitcher or any fielder is doing any of that and actually having the effects you mentioned, then I would use the hook on them. To me though softball is like a chess game. What you think is deceptive might not strike me that way in looking at the big picture/diamond. |
| July 8 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | first off quick pitching is illeagl in all assoc,not even USSSA allows it,so get your facts straight please,as usual just throwing crap out and hope it sticks. once the batter is in the box he should be ready to hit,not lollygag around and not adjust everything he has,get in,get set,be ready is my motto.we make the pitchers throw with in 5 seconds of umps signal,why can't the batter be ready in 5 seconds,quite wasting game time. |
| July 8 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | mad dog, you are so right about guys who do all their adjusting when already in the batters box, while the ump is patiently holding up his hand. They adjust everything. Five seconds stretches to 10. Sometimes when a batter pulls that with me, I then step out of my posture once he's set, turn around and check my outfielders again, step back and shout something to one of my infielders, dry my hand on my shorts, then pitch. Is that unsportsmanlike? By the way, although this thread is about pitching, Gary19 brings up some interesting sportsmanship questions. Add to that the outfielder who taps his glove, stops running forward on a short fly to freeze the runner on first, and then fields the unreachable ball on the bounce, just like he knew he would have to and quickly fires to second. I understand the quick pitch is illegal when there is no presentation of the ball. But what if all that has happened and the pitcher still throws as soon as the batter is in the box? Still illegal? Still unsportsmanlike? |
| July 8 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | hey omar,i'm with you,i'll take as much time as an idiot batter who feels they need to go thru a 30 second routine to get in the box to hit,just get in there and hit.i like your attitude towards these types,i'll do the same,i'll even just look to the outfield till the ump says ok pitch,and then still take more time.i will look at the batters hands also,if ya catching them really gripping the bat tight,take even a couple more seconds as that will sap some of their strength...lol.... it is slow pitch,the batter has the upper hand,we as pitchers should be given the latitude to do what we want to get them out,not like we are throwing a 100 mph out there.in mat ball we have specific spot as what we can throw the ball to,for it to be a strike,what more does a batter need,hell there is no judgement,they can see where the strike has to be.oh well some people just want to cry about anything and everything if they can't have it their way. |
| July 8 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Thanks, Nancy. The rule IS clear about unsportsmanlike behavior in the judgment of the umpire and it relates to any fielder including the pitcher which a lot of people don't know. The umps have all the discretion to control any ASA/SSUSA pitcher given his/her sense of what is going on. Thanks for helping us discuss and learn more about our game. Yes, Omar. The rule cited relates to any fielder regarding the "batter" but I would see the meaning/character of the rule extended to fielders, too. A teammate of mine in a championship game was going from second to third on a ball hit to the outfield and the third baseman screamed go back, go back he caught it. It was really a hit and on his attempt to get back to tag up he was thrown out and should have scored easily. The rally was killed and we lost the championship game. No call was made but should have been given any reasonable interpretation of the rules and character of sportsmanship. |
| July 8 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | just gamesmanship,maybe the runner should of been paying attention and it wouldn't of happen,maybe the third base coach should been telling the runner to keep running,why is the runner listening to the 3rd baseman instead of the coach.doesn't sound like a very bright runner. |
| July 8 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | We really disagree about sportsmanship, too which shouldn't come as a big surprise to anyone. That third baseman is a punk in his heart and has no honor or integrity and should have been ejected from the game and the run given by interference. Then have his ass kicked by someone during or after the game. I wouldn't play on a team with any player who would do that or who'd get away with it. |
| July 9 Gary19 Men's 50 2609 posts | mad dog is 100% correct. Joe, in all honesty, why wasn't the runner listening to the 3rd base coach? That is ALL on the runner, and perhaps the coach as well. NO excuse for what they did. Why does everyone want to blame others these days? |
| July 9 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | No he's not in my rulebook which is governed by the definition of sportsmanlike intent, Gary. We can disagree and we're too far away from each other to ever be opponents, all praise to Allah. But I find inside and outside of me that players with that attitude make me want to hurt them which is OK in football but not in baseball/softball. No. I would say the attitude that Dave and Terry and Ridge Hooks would like to see us cultivate wouldn't be one where guys want to physically hurt one another on the field. That's another reason why the U-trip style you prefer will never become popular with us. It invites that reaction. You can compete without becoming unsportsmanlike win and be champions, as many of us can attest. |
| July 9 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | To be overly aggressive is not a good thing in sportsmanlike competition, G. I'd reserve it for warfare but even there there are rules of engagement which have always perplexed me because if you're trying to kill me, all bets are off. Overly aggressive invites overly aggression and not a spiral civilized competitors want engage. "I love my enemy because he brings out the best in me" is a great quote from somewhere that rings true for a lot of us. Ask Ridge Hooks, a devout and sincere Christian what he would say about being overly aggressive on the field or Dave and Terry or Gary Tryhorn (NCSSA)(Old A's) for that matter if you want to learn who and what we are and aspire to be. No one has more major plus championships or represented what was best in us in the country than the Old A's when they were active and there was NO place for poor sportsmanship anywhere on the field when they were involved. |
| July 9 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | i guess from now on a fielder can not move on the pitch to cover a hole(might distract the batter),guess they can't yell ball or i got it as all of this will confuse the poor runner.i guess as fielders we can't fake a throw anymore,might confuse a runner there....... oh by the way speaking of not hurting anyone on the field, but you advocate using equipment(the hot bat/ball combo) that will do so very easily,there is your hypocritical mode right there,which way do you want it whiney. |
| July 9 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Your ignorance defines you, Robert. I don't need to go after you. You do it to yourself. The meaning of the rule is "intentionally unsportsman-like conduct" but I don't think you're being obtuse. I think you really don't get it. You really don't get what it is to be sportsmanlike in your intention. I think you're that kind of guy/player who thinks only of himself and what he can get away with and think that's OK. You're like the guy who pays 20 dollars for a ticket to a game and therefore has a right to say/act in any classless way because he's paid real money for his ticket. As that is the case, I'm sorry but it's not my/our fault because you're short a couple of bottles to make a six pack of class. |
| July 10 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | yep just like you whiney.......even without class i still have more than you as i care about my fellow senior softballer,unlike you who would rather see them die or get seriously injured b/c of your non caring ways. |
| July 11 Gary19 Men's 50 2609 posts | Once again Joe, why wasn't the runner paying attention to the coach, assuming the coach was saying the right thing? This is NOT on the other team. |
| July 11 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Joe, you do not have interference to a runner, but it could be loosely considered obstruction, but I am not going down that road. I will also guess that the umpire never heard any of it with everything else going on during the plays. If everything was as you describe, and my judgement was the same as yours, the hook would come out immediately. Also all men's voices can sound pretty much the same when you are running the bases. I could say having a lady scorekeeper or base coach might keep you out of that, but I had a situation (oddly enough in a Utrip regional) where the ball was fair because the 1B touched it in fair territory, and then it went off of his glove to the middle of the field (it was a mis-hit, gentle roller). I pointed fair as loudly as possible (Joe, this is a joke). Only the shortstop was paying attention to me selling pointing fair, and he ran up and grabbed the ball and threw it to 1B who barely caught it because he was not paying attention. I called the out because my partner was not paying attention either. The 1B coach came unglued screaming that I had yelled, "Foul ball". I walked down there and motioned for the other coach. 1B coach is of course upset, but I explained to him that I cannot sound like a man. So he then accused my partner, and I told him that it was his 3B coach. Oh, well. Also remember that an umpire can award balls or strikes for those delaying the game depending on who it is. For me it happens more to pitchers (balls) than batters (strikes), but those are the ones that I have had which is not in your back yard. Of course it is very important to a man to have his time in the box. ;-) I like Utrip to officiate. I could never play it, and I do not think that it works well in senior softball, but they do have a senior world series which I would like to see sometime. Utrip and BASA players in this area are much more aggressive for whatever reason, and you have to take control a little harder. I think I like it most because it is so different than what I am used to. We had a young team from Chicago go 2 and BBQ in a Utrip tournament; so Tim talked him into signing up for the NSA round robin later. They said that they just could not believe how hard NSA was to play. OK, way over my word limit... |
| July 11 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Thanks, Nancy. You're always a breath of fresh air for us and I usually learn a lot listening to you talking from your understanding and experience as an umpire. I like to take my time getting into the box but once I'm there I'm ready to get on the first thing I can drive :-) I don't see any problem with TD's or Umps who let us know what to expect regarding new/unclear rules and general conduct. Tim Reed who is a very good umpire in my estimation has never had a problem letting anyone on the field know' where he stood on any issue of rule or conduct. Fundamentally, this is a good thing. |
| July 11 Gary19 Men's 50 2609 posts | Joe, in this case why wasn't the runner watching his coach? |
| July 11 stick8 1992 posts | Einstein in reading that base running play you describe we call that a "sucker play". The third baseman suckered your runner into believing the ball was a catch. I do variations of that many times when I play infield. It works maybe once or twice a year. I understand the honor argument but I have to agree with Gary 19's take on this. If the runner is going from second to third (presuming he started at second) why wouldn't he first watch the ball to make sure it was down or caught before he decided to go to third? Why didn't the third base coach say anything? What about his teammates in the dugout, weren't they hollering what to do? Perhaps I'm old school but to me that's a great play by that third baseman. Why would a baserunner listen to a fielder from the opposing team in a competitive or national tournament? |
| July 11 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | REMINDS ME OF THE A-ROD PLAY,3B DROPPED THE BALL,SO SAD TO BAD,PLAY ON. |
