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Discussion: Home Runs for Outs

Posted Discussion
Aug. 29, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Home Runs for Outs
I donít want to debate the issue of HRs for outs but I would like to understand why the change was made away from the 1, 1 up then singles in AAA. The 3 then Outs seems to be universally unpopular among the players Iíve talked to and the Posts Iíve seen donít support it. Most of the Non Ring/TOC Tournaments Iíve played switch and use a 3 Hr then singles. Many Major and M+, say they rarely use all their HRís so why not lower the Limit, then 1 up and singles. Itís just not right that at one at bat you can win a game with a HR and another you can lose the game.
Webbie, you seem to have some insight to the SSUSA decision process and attended some of the meeting. Why did they make the change? Was there really Players support for it. You say they watch the Forum and listen to what the Players want but I just donít get this one.
theBull
Aug. 29, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
My opinion on this is that it is TIME. Keeping the game, that game each game, as close to one hour as possible. I do know there were complaints from umps when the games were lasting about 1 hr & a half. Umps wanted more money. That all goes back awhile but still even applies.
The HR rule is one that seems to fluctuate over time.
I think they consider it being paid by the hour instead of per game umped.
There are many good umps that hustle out to make calls, then there are the others. Your paying for both types....
Aug. 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
bull if You allow the hrs in the lower div's you get teams dropping down to win(aka sandbagging).the way i see it the hr limits are just fine for the lower limits.i know it has been said if ya wanna hit hrs play up,and then there is the retort "well what if there are no upper teams where i play",not much ya can do there,but keep it in the park,just saying.....

Aug. 29, 2011
hombre
Men's 60
220 posts
That the umps influence the decisions to have extra home runs as outs does make sense. I think that AA definitely needs protection and that it's a good rule for that division. It's been my experience, particularly in the South East, that most AAA teams have some major players and some have a Major plus player, or two. This is due to the lack of teams, in particular upper division teams. Most of these teams really don't need protection other than the one up rule. Just my opinion, I think that 3 HR's and a walk is a much better rule for AAA.
Aug. 29, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
MD, you hit a sore spot with me on this one. The homerun rule is the lazy way to determine classifications. Directors who run tourneys and make an income from softball used to watch and determine what class a team should be in. I hope no thinks that a team with no homerun hitters on the club, but can punch out 25-30 runs a ballgame should warrant playing in a lower division? That's how the rules are setup. We all have seen teams that have no biz playing in one class or another either because they possess too much power or none at all.
Aug. 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
pricer how do you do it than.i have seen AAA teams go way over the limit of 3 a lot.to me ya need to limit the power in the lower div's.yes the teams that do score like that get moved up by winning a lot,i have seen that also.i know it is a rock and a hard place for the assoc and teams.
Aug. 29, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Talent, not power, should classify teams. Some lower teams have only 2 or 3 guys that can really hit and have power. So when teams recognize this they pitch around them or the only runs they get come on their homers. Let's not indicate that those players should find another team and move up. We could then lose an entire team, for they might be the glue holding that team together. It's going to take work from the directors. Never should where you finish in a tourney automatically move you up, because it doesnít automatically move you in the other direction if you lose.
Aug. 29, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Some good points, but still donít get it. HR after limit as a single takes less time than most hit singles. A HR after limit is a safe single but I think many skilled hitters will try and hit to advance the runners, takes more time than HR single. In my area we play at the level available to us. The last 2 years I played with a Team almost 4 hours away, was Ok for traveling to Tournaments but could not play for them in League and could not participate in practices or any other Team Function. Also had to travel alone many times which is kind of a drag. Would love to play at the level I want with a local team with all the friends Iíve played with for 30 years, but cant. I play AAA and so does Webbie because thatís whatís available, and Iím fine with that, there are some very good Teams, competition is great, and usually plenty of Teams to play. Just hate being penalized for the HR, in a base hit situation sometimes you make a small mistake and the ball carries, just happens.
I agree with Pricer, ranking of Teams should be based on more than just HRís, the really strong teams Iíve played against did not beat us with HRís. They beat us with good base hitting and a strong Defense.

theBull
Aug. 29, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
thebull; Have been through the team thing you mention w\many teams in nor cal and so cal, I'm 200++ miles from either, it sucks.
Personally I do not like punishing a hoot hr with anything less. But the powers to be control that, you just go with the flow.
I actually think if they let them fly it might prove after a bit that rating may be much different.
Many still sandbag in certain events but not all. True colors are usually shown in the big ones unless a bad day or another is close at hand.
It's like all teams plan ahead to where they will go. and with that usually comes at what level and which teams do you expect to show up. For that it is usually the same group that does the same planning.
Aug. 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
bull,pricer yes i have seen teams without power win and win a lot,and yes that doesn't make them lower div b/c they have no power,but i'm willing to bet their defense is way above the AA/AAA level also.also when i'm mean winning,is they win big tourney's,or worlds/nationals.i see it this way,you come up with no one on,do you look to hit it out..why....i have been on teams that had no one behind me and have gotten that walk,even with bases loaded.to me the hr levels for the 2 lower levels are just fine,it works for the kids(well maybe not working as they hit those DBO's all the time)in their lower div's.to me it is a way to keep teams from dropping down just to win a ring,which i have seen also happen.i think anyone who wants to hit hrs in the lower level is be selfish per say(nothing personal bull,pricer),they knew what was going on when they joined the team,they need to adapt,is all i'm saying.

i have seen guys join a team and get mad b/c they bat lower in the lineup then they think they should,try and hit a hr with no one on,then tell their teammates to save the hr for them as that is what they do and bring to the team,but pop up more than hit them out.well those type of players can keep on going and find another team to play with as far as i'm concerned.....
Aug. 29, 2011
southernson
250 posts
It's always been a poor definition and a problem....Home runs as outs is horrible at any level.

Umps, time limit, HR rules? Hey, there is no connection....1 hour is 1 hour no matter what the home run rule. There's no more possibilitiy of extra innings there than somewhere else if the HR rule is different.

This has been an item where no one listens to the players....you hit it on the head Bull...

Aug. 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
southernson,it has always been the rule for lower div's,senior (and kids ball since the mid to late 80's).at one time AA got no hrs,now they get 1.AAA had no hrs,they were 2b's,now they get 3,so i do think that ssusa has listen some.i think to be able to keep the lower divs equal per say,is to keep the hr limit as it is.
Aug. 29, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
An option could be all the homeruns for singles(instead of outs) be recorded and determine if the teams that exceed the limit to often, obviously don't belong in the lower divisions. That way players & teams don't get cheated with the out, but risk being moved up. That could be start.
Aug. 29, 2011
Tate22
Men's 55
259 posts
Every rule should fix or prevent a problem, or it shouldn't exist. I've asked SSUSA leadership in person numerous times what problem is being resolved by making HR's outs. I've never receive an answer. We can speculate all we want, but SSUSA should be able to articulate why this rule exists since they make the rules. I can see reasons for different limits for different levels and then singles or walks, but cannot see any reason at all for making HR's outs.

Enlighten us please.

Don Newhard
Nighthawks 55M+
Aug. 29, 2011
turn2
484 posts
If evryone wants to hit more home runs all you have to do is move to major or even move up to the major plus division.
Now for the aaa teams instead of 3 and outs you could hit 6-9 homeruns if you move up to the next level.
Just a thought,
Donnie
Turn Two
Aug. 29, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
I tend to agree with Pricer. I played AAA last year and there are a bunch of AAA teams that should be Major teams, in my opinion. If SSUSA would keep track of how many AAA teams are using the 1 up rule, then they would find out which teams are sandbagging. I want to hit as many as possible so, I moved up to Major plus this year. I still believe that you should never be punished for hitting the ball over the fence. In my 2 years playing senior ball I have not hit a HR for an out and I have not hit a solo. I know it happens, but I also know that if a guy wants to keep it in the park, most of the time he can.

Dale Mayo
OKI Softbsall 50M+
Aug. 29, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Tate22, I think you best understood my original question when you stated,Ē what was the problem and how did the change resolve itĒ.
I donít like the HR for an out because Iím forced to try change my swing, which I can do and have done and maintained a high average , but WHY. As for moving to a higher level, yes itís an option, been asked to play M+ in SPA next year and I might but they only play about 5 Tournaments a year and itís always a long trip, the travel would be very expensive and require a lot of missed work.
Mario, I understand that you are a Giant, I think all Giants should be rated as M+ players.
theBull
Aug. 29, 2011
JamesLG
295 posts

To win or lose a game on a DBO is not a good feeling and it is not good for the game. Telling a AAA guy to move up to Majors so he can hit a few more HR's is not the answer because the Major teams only get 5. There really should be a 1 up for AAA and above and anybody playing 60+ should never be punished for hitting the ball out of the park period.

Thank You:

James
Aug. 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
pricer not a bad idea,kind of like when they used to be 2b's.... and then look at it very closely....



oh bull you are so right about mario........

Aug. 29, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Turn2, I'm not sure if anyone thought I was saying it's ok for everyone below majors to hit homeruns and everything would be honky dory. I repeat,

"An option could be all the homeruns for singles(instead of outs) be recorded and determine if the teams that exceed the limit to often, obviously don't belong in the lower divisions. That way players & teams don't get cheated with the out, but risk being moved up. That could be start."

There are homerun limits, but if after the limits were reached they would become singles. Keep all HR for singles recorded. This could be real simple. It would be obviuos if a team hits 5 or more for singles in these games, they should be moved up in most cases. But there are exceptions.
Aug. 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
pricer ,while a good idea,i can see some abuse to go along with that,where would you set the limit for singles.i know i can keep it in with no prol and feel a lot of the hr hitters can and should,but as they say,they'll have to light up the middle as that is the only place to hit after hrs are done with.
Aug. 29, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Common sense will be the deciding factor. If teams are constantly exceeding the limit by more than a couple 2-3 per game, maybe they should be moved up.
Aug. 29, 2011
JamesLG
295 posts


For those who think the teams with a lot of power are always the better team, at the Western Nationals if you combine the HR totals of the winners in 55AAA and 60M the total is less than 10 HR's hit in the entire tourney. Good teams know how to score runs and it does not take a bunch of HR's.

Thanks:

James
Aug. 30, 2011
turn2
484 posts
Not all teams hit a lot of home runs. Our major plus team (Turn Two) could play by aaa rules if we had to. Now what aaa would want to play against a major plus team? There are some aaa teams that hit more home runs than us. Now are they really a aaateam?
There are many teams that need to move up but some do not want to play against competition.
I was told again that cetain teams complain and don't want to play the higher rated teams.
Turn Two
Aug. 30, 2011
Tater50
333 posts
HRs for outs: was this presented to ALL the players to vote on; I never voted for it & many other rules.

Am I the only one in favor of a yearly Player Poll to determine SS rules?

A PP would determine what present rules should stay in place & what other rules should be amended or removed.


JMO
Tater50
Aug. 30, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
When SSUSA went from the 1-up rule with singles to 3 and out in AAA and made similar changes in all divisions, it was for 2 reasons. One was, of course, sandbagging, and the other was to try to ferret out the teams that hit tons of 'singles' over the fence. We played one of those teams in Phoenix in 2008, a team from Canada that hit 22 balls out of the park on us. We hit 1 and the singles rule kept the final to 22-18, but a lot of our guys were just getting their feet wet in AAA and were just amazed.
I am not a proponent of anyone 50 and older that can hit the ball 300 plus feet ever being out, even with these bats. But the unfortunate fact is that SSUSA has to deal with sandbagging, as does every other lower division of ASA, USSSA, and others. To try and put it to an actual vote is unrealistic, but maybe we can use this forum (that has been cleansed in the last couple of days by SSUSA) to conduct an unofficial poll. Perhaps we can set up a thread just to vote. I would say we might try to do it by teams with the manager or a representative (an honest one without an agenda) coming on and saying 'Desperados 13 for 7 against' or something to make it less unwieldy than individuals voting. Then we would need someone to tally it. SSUSA just does not have the manpower to do this.
Tater50-the convention every year attempts to determine exactly what you are asking. Perhaps someone would volunteer to set up a few major issues to be on a player poll, print up a form to send to all teams, and then receive votes and tally them for SSUSA-unofficially, of course. There is a lot of work to trying to do it this way. Anyone coming to the convention is listened to, I can vouch for that. I still highly encourage anyone to make the commitment to get to the convention.
Aug. 30, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
turn2-in the last 3 years we (50-AAA and 55AAA) have played several major and major plus teams. After reading this board, I was expecting HR after HR but it never materialized. What we saw were great athletes that played a 'complete' game. They played fundamentally strong softball. There were no 'weak' parts of the lineup. The home runs are just part of what makes teams what they are.
Aug. 30, 2011
turn2
484 posts
Webbie,
I commend you guys on playing up against major and major plus teams. Most of the lower teams do not want to play up beacause they are scared. This is slow pitch softball. We were told in several tourney's that some of the teams did not want to play us because they might get hurt. This is not football. So, they make our 60 major plus team drop down and play the 55 major plus or sometimes we get to play the 55 majors. This is not fun but we are not scared to play them.
Any team that hits 18 home runs for singles did not belong in aaa. That is the problem there are too many teams playing down and trying to avoid the better competition.
Good Luck
Turn Two
Aug. 30, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Ok Webbie, sounds like a reasonable answers, and now in retrospect do you think it has helped the Game? SS needs to re-evaluate the HR out and determine if itís solved any problems. I think youíll theyíll find itís had little to no positive impact and increased the number of injuries to infielders. My Opinion of what make a good M/M+ is having a full line up of quality players, good defense at all positions and no weak hitters. First time I watched two M+ Teams play each other I was amazed at how hard they hit from the #1 hitter to the #11 hitter, no weak spots.
Maybe we should try rating Players by their size, come up with a Height/Weight Formula. Big Guys automatically M+ and Compact Guys AA and the rest into AAA and M. It would be difficult to sandbag because you would have to get shorter or loose weight. Problem is here in NM we would end up with 1 M+, 1 M and 1 AAA and scores of AA Teams.
theBull
Aug. 30, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
thebull, SSUSA is always re-evaluating rules and their impacts. Stay tuned here on that.
Turn2-why is there EVER a reason to be scared to play a team in softball. So you get beat 35-10. Big deal/ You played and did your best. I thought it was all about playing the best and being your best. What is there to be scared about? I look forward to playing the best out there. And it is always fun.
Aug. 30, 2011
hombre
Men's 60
220 posts
Another scenario to consider is the team that is made up of catchers. There are AAA teams that have 8 or 9 guys who can hit it out and score a lot of runs. However, by playing 6 catchers in the IF and OF they can't stop the other team from scoring.They don't win many tournaments but their offensive numbers are impressive. Where do you rate them?
Aug. 30, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
SOmetimes thinking to much about a rule can just make it worse. Logic in most cases will indicate would should be done. Trying to make sure no one person feelings are hurt create the biggest problems. It's just a softball decision. I think it's simple! JMO
Aug. 30, 2011
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Tater50 did you vote on the debt ceiling? By the way I believe SSUSA receives your vote everytime you choose or not choose to attend one of their tournaments. For the unlimited HR gang come to the LVSSA tournament. Someone please take the time to explain to me why the LVSSA has seen drop off in attendance over the last several years. Unlimited balls over the fence, Vegas a great venue for tournaments late September weather is almost perfect. The LVSSA uses the X-rock plus all the balls you want to hit over the fence. Bull are you coming to LVSSA, if not why not? Phoenix will have 350 teams and LVVSA probably 100 or so. My experience only but most teams do not want unlimited balls over the fence.
Aug. 30, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
lecak i think it is mostly of the way it has been run in the past,just saying now,so please don't jump me for it.also it is real close to other big tourneys being thrown in the same or close time frame.now don't take me wrong but vegas gets a little old by going there all the time........

i do hope ya have a good turn out and everything goes good....


hombre,to me that scenario is a little farfetched,i can't remember seeing a team with 8 players like that,maybe 3-5 guys that are eh's,C but that is it....they will usually have a good SS and 2-3 OF'ers who can play out there....so ya really are looking at 2-3 positions to fill with these guys,2b and an outfield spot maybe.1st,3rd don't require a lot of movement,neither does pitcher per say(yeah they need to move some).so get what i mean.
Aug. 30, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Lecak, Iíve not played in the LVSSA, my teams havenít gone and I havenít been asked. I donít like HR outs but Iím not necessarily a fan of Home Run Derby Ball either, the Rock is too easy to hit out, like playing with a 525 comp. ball. Itís not if you can hit it out itís how far can you hit it out. My very first Senior tournament was in Santa Rosa, NM using the 44/525 ball and I was hitting Cows grazing in field past the parking lot. I must admit your LVSSA Tournament sounds like a lot of fun but I prefer a balanced type game. If I had a choice Iíd go back to 1,+1 and singles, didnít have to try and drive the middle and I rarely got walked.
theBull
Aug. 30, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
bull i'm like you,i would rather have a more balanced game,than a hr run derby style,besides safety it is one of the reasons i push the 52 ball(this will be my only ref to it).oh i'm still waiting for the new ones to come,haven't seen them yet......i do have some evils that have been hitting.....
Aug. 30, 2011
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Bob I think you missed my point, I was offering up the contrast that LVSSA offers yet for all the chatter about HR's are outs, it's offered up yet the turnout pales in comparison to SSUSA. Bob help me out here doesn't Huntsman also offer up unlimited balls over the fence? Although the numbers are high it seems from the time I played in it very few of the traveling teams attend this one either.
Aug. 30, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
joe i understood what you meant,yes huntsman does...i wasn't really commenting on the hr thing,it was more about the years back,the way the tourney was run,just saying.also if ya have been there a few times,not much to do but gamble or drink,and the place gets a little crowded at times with tourists.....that traffic can be a bear up there,if ya don't know the side streets and such..... i do wish ya well if your having anything to do with running it,i can say it will be done with some class as you are classy.



i will say the huntsman games for a team are hard to get into,and they run during the week,not a weekend like most other tourney's.
Aug. 30, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
Cows? thebull-come on, isn't that what true bulls want??? lol
Maybe you needed to be hitting the 52/275 balls so it didn't hurt them. OK, sorry guys. Always the udder guy.
The home run limits do make you keep the ball in the park and choose your time to hit them, but you are right, the home run derby thing is, I guess, harder to stomach than it used to be.That may be a bit because you know these bats are so lively, not all of them are earned. You see a mis-hit and it goes out and you say-darn! Maybe a limit on the number of singles or walks via the over the fence ball would work-If you ooops it, it doesn't hurt your team unless your team oopses it too often. Maybe the current limits plus 4 singles. Then out. Just thinking out loud.....
Aug. 30, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
Lecak, OKI is coming to Vegas for just that reason. Unlimited HRs....really looking forward to that. Got a little taste of that last saturday night here in Indy. We played in a round robin at Midwest Sports Park. The rules are 2 HR's or whatever you negotiate with the other team. One of the teams there won the NSA B world tourney 2 years ago so they decided that they wanted to play unlimited with us.
We won the flip and put up 22 runs in the top of the 1st inning. They were done after that, we short gamed them 49-13 in 4 innings. I'll say it again, you should never be penalized for hitting it out of the park!!!
Aug. 30, 2011
FOFO
Men's 50
160 posts
I like the home run limits. Nothing more boring than standing in the field watching home run single after home run single go over the fence. You get to play a lot of three inning games that way, and I will bet bat cheats will come out of the woodwork.
I say have home run outs in every division except Major +. Let them hit all they want. This will make it more attractive so teams will want to move up and also make Major + a totally voluntary classification. You want to hit home runs move up. If you want to play the other divisions learn a little bat control.
As for the LVSSA Joe's right. It's the bomb.
Aug. 30, 2011
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Mario were you on OKI two years ago we played two games against them in Phoenix in 2009. Fun team to play against. I see you guys have Stick had some good games against his old Gekle team. Good luck in Vegas if you haven't played the X-rock is a wild ball. I'm going to guess you guys will toss a couple of 60 run games out or your 5 or 6. The problem that I ran into with unlimited balls over the fence is that very few teams really want to play that style.
Aug. 30, 2011
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Bert golf sunday? If so shoot me an email t-time for 9:30 at Alliante. I lost your email sorry.
Aug. 30, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
I did not play with OKI 2 years ago. This is my 1st year with them. I just turned 50 last year.
Aug. 30, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
FOFO I can control the bat with the best of them. Have not hit a solo or a HR for an out in 2 years of senior ball. I just liked it back when HR's were something special. Now, anyone can hit HR's, especially with these senior bats....
I see everyone point as to why you have limits, but If I had a say so the top division would be at least 10 and 1 up and a walk or a single all the time.
Aug. 30, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
Mario-I heard horror (if you look at it that way) stories about when they did open up to unlimited HR's-3 inning 54-47 games and the like-hitting time limit. Nobody wants to play 3 inning games. Nobody wants to umpire 2 1/2 hour games.
Aug. 30, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
If you are going to play unlimited HR's, then you have to do the same with the time limit. They kinda go together. Just can't play unlimited games in an hour. Most of them will last 2-3 hours. Would probably have to pay the umps by the hour not by the game.
Aug. 30, 2011
jimjoes-gman
Men's 55
80 posts
Seems to me , as well as I can recall, that in "young ball",ASA Mens Major has a HR limit of 10 or 12. And the annual game between USA & Canada has a simiilar HR limit also....point to ponder.
Aug. 30, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
If HR's were progressive, it would not matter that there are limits in each classification. If two teams can bang away at each other, whatever the rule, they could and if a team had much more power than another, they couldn't hit as many, it's a good enough equalizer along with the 5 run an inning limit. If your team is AAA or Major and hitting a lot more HR's than your limit, move up and quit sandbagging. Our team is Major-plus and we only average a little over 5 HR's a game!

Major-plus - 10 progressive
Major - 6 progressive
AAA - 3 progressive
AA - 1 outs

If a Major team plays a Major-plus team, because a lack of teams in almost all the tournaments, you make it 8 progressive.

Aug. 31, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Would there even have to be homerun limits if all teams were in proper divisions?
Aug. 31, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Webbie, I said I was hitting them, not hitting on them. Besides they were skinny and ugly.
theBull
Aug. 31, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
pricer yes i think there would be,as i would think there would be teams not playing to full potential during the year and then all of a sudden coming alive at worlds/nationals if ya know what i mean....

jawood i still think the 2 bottom div's needs to be outs for over the limit,now the M and M+ looks good in your idea( i have always been a fan of the M+ teams being unlimited)but like jimjoes said there are limits now even with the young guys,and have been for the lower divs since the 80's.

why do the old guys need to have unlimited hrs,if the young ones don't get them.....
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